The Monarchy in Greece

[Queen Amina]

acda1, I don't know what will happen to the titles in the long run it depends on the rules and "letters patent" as laid out by King Constantine or his predecessors but I generally assume the titles may die out so to speak with CP Pavlos's grandchildren.

Anyone with much better knowledge and info please feel free to correct me.

[Bella]

Thank you, Queen Amina. Your explanation makes sense. It's almost too bad that in a couple of generations there really will be no personal link to the monarchy in Greece.

[ilias of john]

Hi Bella,
I think you may find that this Royal Family will have links with Greece for a very Looooong time! :)

[Bella]

Hi ilias of john ~ I hope so. I'm not political and admittedly know nothing about the causes of the coup and all that, but I sort of like the idea of a Greek RF. True, I am not a citizen of Greece (so I really shouldn't have an opinion) but I guess I feel sorry for the GRF having been treated the way they were.

[Jaya]

Originally Posted by Splodger

In Answer to "King Christians" Question...

Before all this that you mention you may have forgotten the great dispute when then Prime Minister Karamanlis openly criticised the royal family especially Queen Frederika for their "ostentious " lifestyle by letter and made apparent his aversion to many things in their lifestyle as early as 1963. There were also rumours that the national coffers were emptied to supply a hefty dowry to Sofia who married Juan Carlos in /62{ this is conjecture but it went down into the masses and not over well]
Also you forget that Kons supposedly had a serious Greek love interest
Aliki Vougiouklaki - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia and that even though of patrician descent herself[her father was the mayor of Tripolis and her mother of bona fide Byzantine purple origin] was not allowed to pursue this which the Greeks as nation would have possibly embraced better than Princess Anne Marie who is impeccable and faultless Let there be no room for misinterpretation.But the Greeks had had enough of the foreign element.And I feel the backlash came from Aliki being rejected as a potential Queen.
I think Aliki God rest her soul who the masses embraced and adored as the "national star" was at the root of the faux pas.It reverberated in the masses that Greeks themselves were not good enough to become royal and one of the Greek soil like Aliki could not be eleveated and so perhaps they pushed back.
In my heart of hearts and knowing that George Papandreou[who even posed in a famous photograph together despite being a socialist with the beautiful couple Queen Anne Marie and King Constantine} was a wholesome Greek less so than Constantine Karamanlis who self exiled to Paris after a supposed irreconcilable difference with Queen Frederkia. and supposedly after internal political conflict.imo I would say Aliki was the beginning of the end; the alpha and omega.For Karamanlis she represented Greece.She was Helen and they wanted [according to what I know of his stand] and needed the renaissance of their own element elevatedto royal power to counterbalance the growing socialist and pre dominating republican sentiment.Dolce Aliki may the ground that covers you be light.

[*SofiaM*]

Greek News - Antiquities Unearthed at Exiled King¢s Palace

[ilias of john]

I often ask myself how difficult it must be for a member of any Royal Family to live their life without incessant media and political coverage and influence.Can you image what H .M the King would have gone through when Karamanlis and Papandrew where supposedly instructing him on which girlfirend he should have and who he should marry. If memory serves me correct he was 20 or so when he was "with" Aliki.By the way,we all know this but has anybody actually got proof that they were boyfriend and girlfriend or is it just another suburban myth?
Secondly,the point of Aliki being of "purple" Byzantine blood is very difficult to believe.Every man and his dog in Greece can claim this because the Byzantine Empire has 82 or so Emperors form more than 9 dynasties over its 1000 odd years and family trees tend to become forests with every generation.
And lastly, H.M Queen Anne Marie, is the Queen of Greece because The King married her.No one else. He made his decision.The Greeks did not "remove" the monarchy because he did not marry a Greek!.It was removed in a fraudulent public referendum where votes for the Monarch were not counted and votes against were inflated and substituited.

By the way,
yes,
may the soil that covers Aliki be light,
may the soil that covers the departed members of the Greek Royal Family be light,
and,
God save H.M. The King.
Konstantinos, Vasilias ton Ellinon

[Philippe Egalite']

That king Constantine had an affair with actress Aliki Vouyiouklaki is a matter of speculation but irrelevant altogether to this discussion. As was also the case with King Alexander, who eventually married Aspasia Manos but secretely, against the advice of the then prime minister E Venizelos, and the marriage was declared morganatic, the Greek Royals, whether they liked it or not, were NOT allowed by the State to marry into Greek families for fear of political minglings, corruption etc etc.
Another example is the case of prince Michael of Greece who, upon his marriage to Greek citizen Marina Karellas, had to, and did, resign his rights to the throne.
At any rate, even if he did have an affair with the late Aliki Vouyiouklaki, it could have never resulted in marriage. This actress, very popular with the working and uneducated classes, was of lower middle class upbringing and education and petite bourgeoisie background, such that she would have never been tolerated by the Greek upper echelons.

[Philippe Egalite']

Originally Posted by Splodger

The people will do what they want and will have the Government they want whether it is what anyone here wishes it could be. However one day, Pavlos will inherit the claiment for this non-existant throne and be expected to continue 'the good greek works.' What i was saying is that he deserves a chance to do this and show he does care for Greece like any other Greek Citizen which is very hard for someone to do when they are not aloud in the country and people just pick holes in you. ........"

Greece not only allows but is mandated by European law to allow all European citizens to live, practise professions, operate businesses and so on in Greece, if they so choose. Mrs Marie-Chantal Miller (in Greece, by law introduced in the 1980's, even after marriage, all women bear their maiden last name) owns and runs a baby garments' shop in fashionable Kolonaki, just 300 yards from my house, actually.
Further, prince Pavlos, who appears to be very personable, is most welcome to open up a business, run for politics, do whatever else he chooses professionally or live permanently in Greece.
The Greeks may still hold grudges, for right or wrong, against King Constantine but no Greek has a problem with King Constantine's children, no one.

[lucien]

Indeed,HRH The Crown Princess Pavlos,néé Marie-Chantal Miller successfully runs that shop around your corner since a few years now.

And,like anywhere else in Europe,it is their own free choice to let the maiden name trail the husbands name,or use it as they please,
not that it is written in rock that all go by their maiden name only,even after marriage.

[Philippe Egalite']

Originally Posted by lucien

Indeed,HRH The Crown Princess Pavlos,néé Marie-Chantal Miller successfully runs that shop around your corner since a few years now.

And,like anywhere else in Europe,it is their own free choice to let the maiden name trail the husbands name,or use it as they please,
not that it is written in rock that all go by their maiden name only,even after marriage.

Not in Greece. In Greece, whether in identity cards, passports or any document, all women who got married AFTER the passage of the new law, MUST be identified by their maiden last name. Until then, professional women were carrying both their maiden name and the husband's surname in a double barrel fashion (hyphenated, that is), while homemakers or women who had graduated from university or had entered the professions after their marriage were carrying the husband's name.

Now, in the hypothetical setting that Greece were still a monarchy and the 1952 constitution was in effect, the marriage of prince Paul would have been morganatic, as was the case with King Alexander who married Aspasia Manos without permission of the Venizelos government. Posthumously, that is, after King Alexander's death because of septicemia following a bite by a monkey, Aspasia Manos was elevated to princess by unilateral act of the then king but the government and the people never acknoledged that and she is hence quoted in government documents, history books etc as Aspasia Manos.
Last but not least, when prince Micahel married Greek commoner Marina Karella, he had to resign his rights and she remained Marina Karella by decision of the palace - that was in 1965 if my memory serves me well.

Obviously, Mrs Miller is of no concern to Greece and the Greek people and, as long as she remains a non-Greek citizen, the way she gets addressed by people is a private business between her and them and none of Greece's.

[mamaptak]

You'll have to pardon me, as I am trying to follow this thread to the best of my ability and with a relatively recent interest in the Greek Royal Family. Am I to assume that we have some consensus on an actual "last name" that this family uses? If so, can someone clarify what it is? I am quite curious. Thanks in advance.

[Benjamin]

Originally Posted by mamaptak

If so, can someone clarify what it is? I am quite curious.

On his Danish passport the ex-king is "Constantine De Grecia".

[ilias of john]

H.M The King has publicly stated that the GRF has no last name.It is definately an abnormality for us in the modern age but that unfortunately is the sad truth.They use the phrase "de Grecia" (of Greece) on many legal documents ie passports but that is NOT their surname.
They are decended from the Dukes of Gluxburg but neither is that their surname.The British Royal family,who are directly related to the GRF use a number of surnames.They use Windsor,Mountbatten-Windsor(Princess Anne's marriage certificate to her first hubby),Wales(Princes William and Harry in the Army)and Wessex (Prince Edward on all his televisin documentaries.)
I ferverentky hope that the Greek Goverment would allow the Royal Family to use a Greek version of de Grecia on their Greek passports and reinstate their Greek citizenship.I mean honstly,how can they continue to remain stateless?

[Iverieli]

Its shame to Greece not has a monarchy. All orthodox christian counties lost their monarchy and thats started from Georgia, when russia took it. In 20th century Greece was only hope for orthodox christian countries to reinstate monarchy but everybody knows what happened. I'm so sorry post like that but its very hard to imagine because for me, as Georgian very clear what orthodox christianity is and how orthodox church takes things about monarchy.

[Philippe Egalite']

Originally Posted by Iverieli

Its shame to Greece not has a monarchy.

The sovereign people of Greece have decided, by themselves and for themselves, differently and are very happy with the Third Hellenic Republic and its membership to the European Union for which they look forward to becoming also a political entity with common defense and foreign policy.
The Hellenes do not need or invite advice from non-Greek citizens on their State's polity.
Due to a comparatively meteoric economic progress, Greece, which, up until 40 years ago, used to lose her flesh and blood due to forced economic emigration to Australia, Canada and Germany [1.5 million between 1954 and 1964], is now host to 1 million economic immigrants from all over the world including your native Georgia. And this was achieved during the Third Hellenic Republic.

Originally Posted by Iverieli

All orthodox christian counties lost their monarchy and thats started from Georgia, when russia took it. In 20th century Greece was only hope for orthodox christian countries to reinstate monarchy but everybody knows what happened. I'm so sorry post like that but its very hard to imagine because for me, as Georgian very clear what orthodox christianity is and how orthodox church takes things about monarchy.

Christianity, or Orthodox Christianity in this case, is not about polity [ie monarchy versus republic] of individual nation states. Christianity is about caring, compassion, tolerance and acceptance.

However, it is true that, in distinction from the Orthodox Faith, the Orthodox Church (as well as other organized denominations of Christianity) has always had a hand and glove relationship with all kinds of emperors, czars, kings and despots. And it is also true that the Orthodox Church has historically mingled with polity and political issues. It is because of these practices and these reasons that the Hellenes, albeit >95% orthodox christians, some devout, others linking their religious capacity to culture or ethnic identity, are by a vast majority very skeptical about the Church.

[Daytona]

Iverieli,bear in mind that the monarchy was enforced to Greek people by the western powers (France,England,Italy) and from Russia.No monarch was Greek and hadnt any greek culture or education.Even Constantine speaks adequatly Greek but is very fluent in English.In addition most of the kings didnt really care for Greece or the people and their pollitical decisions were made on the basis of their relations to other european monarchs supporting their interests.Democracy is the best regime.

[Philippe Egalite']

Originally Posted by Daytona

No monarch was Greek and hadnt any greek culture or education.Even Constantine speaks adequatly Greek but is very fluent in English.

In all fairness, former king Constantine speaks perfect Greek, albeit non-scholarly due to limited education. He is fluent in English but with a subtle, clearly Greek accent and this is something I like about him.

[ilias of john]

The Greek monarchs were Greek born after George I.hence most of us would say they were Greek.Their use of the Greek language was and continues to be perfect.Now by the term scholarly Greek, Phillip that language is porbably unknown to 95% of the population.

[Philippe Egalite']

Since Byzantine times, there had been a very strong bond (hand and glove-type) between Emperors and the Church, in abidance by the age-old Greek motto Η ισχύς εν τη ενώσει (strength in unity) for, by supporting each other's position, they had managed to perpetuate despotism and autocracy. And it was the resultant corruption, incompetence and betrayal that, at least, contributed to the demise and Fall of the Empire and Constantinople. Alas, history always repeats itself. Ieronymos Kotsonis, the royal chapel's priest and confidant of the royal family, betrayed them and became the Junta's archbishop!!!

I understand that, at some point, Archbishop Ieronymos visited the King in Rome and was crying, asking for forgiveness!!

What is fascinating, paradoxical and ironical about King Constantine's downfall, was that it was not caused, prompted or facilitated by what are historically the adversaries of any monarchy such as the communist, left-wing or centrist political parties, but by its allies, that is, the pro-royalist right-wing party, the military and the Church.