The Monarchy in Greece

[Splodger]

I am a believer in Constitutional Monarchy, however it appears the biggest problem the Monarchies in Greece had, was that too much power was vested in the King. Politics and Kingship do not mix. However any discussion on the theoretical restoration of a Monarchy in Greece should bear in mind that whether they invited Constantine, Pavlos or Cliff Richard to be King, they would not have this power again. The age of Autocratic Kings are over. If they returned it would be as a figure head for the nation. Any 'powers' would be to ensure the legitimacy of government and to ensure the will of the people was carried out. They would not be involved in day to day politics.

I totally understand what George says about having a son inherit the throne who is not worthy of the 'job.' Despite my beliefs in the advantages of Monarchy it is something that can not be ruled out as a downside. However being optimistic, a quick look at the European Monarchies today, and they on the whole do not seem to have Kings/Queens and Successors who are unworthy to be there, and in most cases appear to work hard. I do see the pattern has and is changing from the subjects serving the King to the King serving the subjects. I know there is a dilemma over how fit would Pavlos be as King for Greece. I can not comment objectively as I have not studied his movements that closely, however in a general word of defence for him: he was born to be King, but unlike his cousins who can learn from their parents and gradually take greater roles in state affairs, he not only has to wait to be 'king' but it is a kingdom he may never have. He reminds me a little of Edward VII and the phrase 'Idol Thumbs and Trouble.' I think he would not be as bad as people fear if he could be groomed for the job in a working environment than a theoretical one where he has been exiled from.

 

[ellinotati]

I wonder if pavlos truly loves greece with all its goods and bads or he is mainly interested in the throne.don't know why and how but everytime i saw him on the media i got the feeling that he dosen't REALLY loves greece.instinct or paronoia,i don't know.... hope that one day he proves me wrong.

 

[cuervo]

According to his statements,He adores everything Greek,so, does His wife Princess Maria-Chantal and Their children!

 

[Jo]

so that's why she hasn't bothered to learn greek!

 

[Splodger]

I honestly do not know a great deal about Pavlos or Marie-Chantel however I do belive he has the best 'intentions.' It must be hard for him to have expectations of his parents and royal supporters to be a Greek Prince when he has been unable to access the fundemental aspect of his 'Greekness' which is the country of his birth. I am aware that I have provided an excuse for him in this post and my last and as I say I do not know enough about that man to pass an objective comment, but these points are worthy of consideration. He has nothing to gain by being an arogant royal who just wants to be King as such an attitude will not gain him anything in the eyes of Greek Republicans or Loyalists. I do not live where I was born but still feel an attachment to it. I would guess he feels the same, but I am catious to claim my full nationality as I have barley lived there and he undoubtably has these concerns. I was not aware he does not speak Greek, especialy as he was taught by a GReek tutor, his parents speak Greek and he attended a Greek based school. He deserves a chance, but what he does with that chance is up to him.

 

[Fireweaver]

Pavlos speaks it. His wife doesn't, and that's where a lot of criticism comes in. He should have "made" her learn, they should have their children speak it now, etc.

 

[Sean.~]

Originally posted by Fireweaver@Nov 23rd, 2003 - 6:26 pm


Pavlos speaks it. His wife doesn't, and that's where a lot of criticism comes in. He should have "made" her learn, they should have their children speak it now, etc.

The whole family speaks Greek to one another, with the exception of MC and Carlos Morales (not sure about the MC's & P's children). How do I know? Because I knwow people that know them & because various members of the family have said publicly.

:flower:

S

 

[Sean.~]

Originally posted by Splodger@Nov 23rd, 2003 - 6:23 pm
He deserves a chance, but what he does with that chance is up to him.

A chance at what? Being King?

The present system of government works well. The country is stable and is prospering. There is no want or need to restore the monarchy. I know that you are a supporter of constitutional monarchy, however, one must be cognizant of the fact that other systems of government work just as well and, in many cases, better. Greece is one such case. It would be ludicrous for a country to abandon the most stable and democratic form of government it has had in in well over a century for a system of government (even if reformed) that was a disaster.

Monarchies are not suitable for every country. And, In my opion, he certainly does not deserve a chance at the (possible) detriment of Greece. For you to say "what he does with that chance is up to him" is really quite nonchalant if it means what I think it does. As I said above, the very notion of replacing the best system a country has had just so a someone (inexperienced) can have a "chance "due to his birth is outrageous.

 

[Fireweaver]

I thought that the Greek Royals didn't have legal last names. Hence the problem for them getting passports.

 

[Fireweaver]

Don't most women who marry into royal families go from having a last name to not having one? I mean there's the dynasty's name, but it's not really a surname from what I've understood from various geneologists/royal watchers.

 

[Sean.~]

Originally posted by Fireweaver@Nov 23rd, 2003 - 11:44 pm
Don't most women who marry into royal families go from having a last name to not having one? I mean there's the dynasty's name, but it's not really a surname from what I've understood from various geneologists/royal watchers.

No, of course they have last names. They just don't need to use them like us ordinary folk, because they are known by their titles.

For instance, the family name of the British Royal Family is Windsor. Howeve,r the the QE II"s children are technically Mounbatten-Windsors. This was the last name on the marriage certificates of Anne, Andrew, and Edward. Charles's marriage certificate had his full name and referred to him as HRH the Prince of Wales.
IIRC, Sarah Ferguson kept her maiden name after her marriage.

I am a lay geneologist and royal watcher too, btw.

Besides, Constantine and his family are no longer royal family, insofar as they are not the legal representatives of a state. It may have been okay in Greece, but, AFAIK, in Britain you have to have a last name (Although I'm sure some exceptions are made, I don't see one being made for MC. She isn't that noteworthy) .

 

[Fireweaver]

the Queen and her children are actually Windsors (if it's true that royals do have last names). It's the next generation that are actually M-W, although I'm not convinced that royals do have last names. I seem to recall this causing a bit of contraversy with a few disposed monarchies.

Side note. Isn't geneology facinating? It's amazing to think of how just about everyone's connected in some way

 

[Sean.~]

Originally posted by Fireweaver@Nov 24th, 2003 - 12:17 am
the Queen and her children are actually Windsors (if it's true that royals do have last names). It's the next generation that are actually M-W, although I'm not convinced that royals do have last names. I seem to recall this causing a bit of contraversy with a few disposed monarchies.

Side note. Isn't geneology facinating? It's amazing to think of how just about everyone's connected in some way

Yes, I'm well aware of her 1960 decree. However, on the marriage certificates (which I've seen), they are listed as Mountbatten-Windsors. If they didn't have last names, then the name would not have been listed. And of course members of royal families have last names (whether they choose to use it or not is their own ffair). Why do you think they have a House names (and why do you think House names sometimes change)? Otherwise, why not just call the house by the name of the country?


However, as I stated previously, they are known by their titles and not their full names. Besides, those deposed are, for the most part, subjected to the same laws as everyone else is. MC doesn't get special treatment because her father-in-law happens to be the former King of Greece. AFAIK, to live and work in the US (at least legally) you need a last name, no matter who you are related to. The same goes for Britain.

 

[Fireweaver]

I thought it changed because of certain things, like the Windsors were S-C-G (I can't spell it, but I think you know what I mean) but because of the war, they changed it. Also, the house of orange-nassau is still that, despite there being 3 queens in a row. and the Luxembourg changed to nassau instead of what it was, due to the unequal marriage (in the eyes of the Bourbon-Parma head of household's view) of G-D Henri.

 

[Sean.~]

Originally posted by Fireweaver@Nov 24th, 2003 - 12:42 am
I thought it changed because of certain things, like the Windsors were S-C-G (I can't spell it, but I think you know what I mean) but because of the war, they changed it. Also, the house of orange-nassau is still that, despite there being 3 queens in a row. and the Luxembourg changed to nassau instead of what it was, due to the unequal marriage (in the eyes of the Bourbon-Parma head of household's view) of G-D Henri.

The house name in Britain was Hanover during the reign of Queen Victoria. When her son, Edward VII, succeeded, he took his father's name of Saxe-Coburg-Gotha. Thus the House name was Saxe-Coburg-Gotha. The name then changed after WW I because the SCG was too Germanic sounding.

You are right about the Netherlands, but there was a decision there not to change the House name. Queen Beatrix's children, however, use the name Amsberg for legal purposes. Her neices and nephews use the surnmes of their fathers. For instance, the children of Princess Margareit are Princes of Orange-Nassau (not the Netherlands), but use the Van Vollenhoven last name (e.g. Prince Maurits of Orange Nassau van Vollenhoven). The Bourbon Parma nieces and nephews's use the last name Bourbon and the children of Christina use the Guilemero last name.
The Queen's sister, Irene, is known as Irene Lippe-Biesterfield (the family name of Prince Bernhard).

If you look at pictures of the Spanish King and Prince of Asturias in fatigues, you will notice that their name badge reads "Borbon". Similarly, pictures of Carl Philip and Crown Princess Victoria in military fatigues have the name "Bernadotte" across their chests.

With respect to Luxembourg, the house name was Orange Nassau, but that changed when Grand Duchess Charlotte married Prince Rene of Bourbon-Parma. However, it reverted back to Orange Nassau in the 1980s.

 

[George II]

They indeed use the name Sleschwig-Holstein-Glücksburg-Oldenburg as a last name, but the Greek royals also have the title Prince/Princess of Greece and Danmark. The first Greek king of this royal family was George I, a Danish prince, who kept his rights on the Danish throne. The Greek royals are also heirs to the Danish throne. Late Queen Friederike's titles were Princess of Hannover, Duchess of Braunsweich-Lüneburg and Princess of Great-Britain and Northern Ireland. She was a descendant of Queen Victoria, so she was allowed to were the title Princess of Great-Britain and Northern-Ireland.

It's not quite right that the Luxemburg royal house called Orange-Nassau. The reigning house of Luxemburg is actually the House of Nassau-Weilburg, who came in power in 1890, after the dead of King William III of the Netherlands, who has no male heirs. So a nephew of William III, prince Adolphe of Nassau and Weilburg, became Grand Duke of Luxemburg. Well it is related to the House of Orange-Nassau, the Luxemburg royal family is Nassau-Weilburg

 

[Sean.~]

the Greek royals also have the title Prince/Princess of Greece and Danmark. The first Greek king of this royal family was George I, a Danish prince, who kept his rights on the Danish throne. The Greek royals are also heirs to the Danish throne.

Actually, the Danish title isn't seperable from the Greek title. They are not princes of Denmark, but Princes/ess of Greece and Denmark. The Danish King allowed the prosterity of the George I to be titled Princes/ss of Greece and Denmark (it was kind of like one title). They are not Princes/ss of Denmark in their own right. There was a recent controversy about this in the Danish parliament (a couple of years ago). And the Greek royals have no claim to the Danish throne. Since the 1950s succession is limited to the legitimate descendants of King Christian X and Queen Alexandrine from approved marriages, thereby excluding the descendants of George I. They also do not have a claim through Anne-Marie becuase she renounced her right in order to marry Constantine.

The Succession to the Danish throne is

Frederick
Joachim
Nikolai
Felix
Benedikte
Princess Elisabeth

The Children of Princess Benedikte fall into a grey area, although officially they are not in line.

Late Queen Friederike's titles were Princess of Hannover, Duchess of Braunsweich-Lüneburg and Princess of Great-Britain and Northern Ireland.

Yes, she was Princess of Hanover and Duchess of Brunswick Luneburg until the 1918, when Germany became a republic. After that the title was one of pretension only. She was never a Princess of Great Britain and Northern Ireland. She was a Princess of Great Britain and *Ireland* (as per letters patent in 1914). However, this changed when the laws were changed in Britain in 1917. She was no longer a Princes of Great Britain and Ireland (there was no Northern Ireland then). The family continued using the title as a title of pretension. Her father, Ernst August, issued a decree in the 1930s stating that all members of his house would bear the title,as the senior descendants in the male line of George III. But the decree had no legal standing in Germany (which was a republic) or in Britain (because he had no right to isssue decrees there). Queen Elizabeth II just humours them.

She was a descendant of Queen Victoria, so she was allowed to were the title Princess of Great-Britain and Northern-Ireland

She wasn't a descendant of Queen Victoria in the male line. Rather, she was a descendant in the female line and thus she didn't derive her British Highness (as opossed to Royal Highness) from her. It was derived from her descent from King George III. Moreover, she only had the title because the letters patent were amended in the 2nd decade of the 20th century to allow it. I posted about it here earlier (I think it was under the thread titled Queen Frederika).

It's not quite right that the Luxemburg royal house called Orange-Nassau. The reigning house of Luxemburg is actually the House of Nassau-Weilburg, who came in power in 1890, after the dead of King William III of the Netherlands, who has no male heirs. So a nephew of William III, prince Adolphe of Nassau and Weilburg, became Grand Duke of Luxemburg. Well it is related to the House of Orange-Nassau, the Luxemburg royal family is Nassau-Weilburg

The Luxmebourg Grand Ducal House officially uses the name Orange-Nassau. Thus this is their "right" name.

Regards,

S

 

[George II]

The Luxemburg Royal Family is the House of Nassau, or Nassau-Weilburg, and NOT Orange-Nassau.

The only heirs of the Orange familyname are the descendants of William of Orange (1533-1584), and that's the Dutch Royal Family.

The Luxemburg Royal Family are descendants of the counts of Nassau, thus not of William of Orange (he was also a Nassau, but not the ancestor of the Luxemburg GD's).

The only heirs of the title Prince of Orange are the Dutch crownprinces and the crownprince of Prussia (or the House of Hohenzollern). This because the Prussian kings were descendants of the Dutch stadholder Frederick Henry.

Greetz,

GII....

And Sean, my compliments for your enormous knowledge of Royalty

 

[Sean.~]

Originally posted by George II@Nov 24th, 2003 - 2:17 pm

Luxemburg Royal Family is the House of Nassau, or Nassau-Weilburg, and NOT Orange-Nassau.

The only heirs of the Orange familyname are the descendants of William of Orange (1533-1584), and that's the Dutch Royal Family.

The Luxemburg Royal Family are descendants of the counts of Nassau, thus not of William of Orange (he was also a Nassau, but not the ancestor of the Luxemburg GD's).

The only heirs of the title Prince of Orange are the Dutch crownprinces and the crownprince of Prussia (or the House of Hohenzollern). This because the Prussian kings were descendants of the Dutch stadholder Frederick Henry.

Greetz,

GII....

And Sean, my compliments for your enormous knowledge of Royalty

The Luxemburg Royal Family is the House of Nassau, or Nassau-Weilburg, and NOT Orange-Nassau.

You are correct, of course. I'm just used to writing Orange-Nassau and for some reason in my mind the two are inseperable (although I know it is incorrect). Of course I realize that the family descents from count Walram. In any event, the family uses Nassau and not Nassau-Weilburg.

 

[Splodger]

I wasnt actualy saying that Greece should become a monarchy just so Pavlos can have five minutes to prove him self on the throne. As I said pages ago, it doesnt matter whether Greece is a Republic, Monarchy, Theocracy or anyother form of government, however secure and stable it may be... Constantine will always be the man who was King, and is the man who would be King had the Monarchy not been abolished, just as the Dukes of Bavaria have some complex Jacobian Claim on the British Crown, of which is even more unlikely to ever happen, however if you are so inclined they are the person to whom you turn.

Whether you agree or disagree with monarchys in general or just in Greece, there are those who are either in favour of its return or simply just look upon the Royal Family with respect. In the same way if your Catholic your focal point is the Pope, and just beacuse he pays a state visit to your country does not mean there is going to be a Catholic forced take over. It doesnt matter if Greece is doing well or not, or if you like or hate the former King, there are people who look towards him for what ever small bit of happiness it brings them. As such I personaly dont see a problem with someone calling them selves Glucksberg, De Greece, Oldenberg or Mr Athens, in supporting charities and promting Greek interests, and generaly doing good works as a private citizen. Now if he started causing trouble and inciting his small or large number of followers into storming the Government Offices and Gunning the down the Oposition in the Street in an attempt to win back his throne then I would understand their reluctance to let him in, but I dont really think it is his style.

The people will do what they want and will have the Government they want whether it is what anyone here wishes it could be. However one day, Pavlos will inherit the claiment for this non-existant throne and be expected to continue 'the good greek works.' What i was saying is that he deserves a chance to do this and show he does care for Greece like any other Greek Citizen which is very hard for someone to do when they are not aloud in the country and people just pick holes in you. If he turns out to be nothing more than an arrogant royal who wants nothing more than a crown and status we can then all say "he had his chance to be a good man and he blew it and thank goodness they didnt make him King."

As for what Constantine or Pavlos call their Family I only have one thought. (please note I am not comparing the two for how much work they did)How many people know Mother Teresa of Calcutters Surname? Did her name have any relevance to the good she tried to do?

 

[Idriel]

if he loved Greece so much why not just leave it alone rather than dragging it through the court system to regain his property or to insist that he be addressed the King of Greece or that his children and grandchildren have the right to use Prince and Princess of Greece?

Genevieve, I don't understand why he would not be allowed to recover properties which belonged to his family for ages. I don't think anyone should be spoiled of his inheritance, whatever their wealth or status.
But are there any laws in Greece preventing that to happen?

 

[kelly9480]

He has a right to fight for the retention of his family's private property, and Greece was wrong in taking them from him. The Greek taxpayers wouldn't have had to give him any money had the government handed the run-down property back to him, but the Greek government hasn't proven itself reasonable when it comes to their former king.

 

[Angela - Natalia]

On the program the Greek Royal Family made with Kirsty Walk that was shown on Channel 5 at Christmas, Constantine gave the impression (I thought) that the property was bought by his great grampa when he was a young man and his parents in Denmark helped him get started or whatever; mummy Denmark waving him off with her lace kercheif and a napsack on his back. Tatoi and Mon Repos (I SO want to go there it looks beautiful ~ sigh~) where private property and the main house in Athens was what came with the job, where the former Bavarian Prince lived before them, so that was not personal.

I don't see what the problem would be of simply letting them have their own homes back becasue that wouldn't have cost anything to Greek Tax payer ~'Duhhh'. There must be lots of other families who have private estates etc near Athens. As long as they never got into politics again against the government there wouldn't have been a problem.

Hopefully not everyone in the Family quits London for Athens. One at least should stay he is at home here aswell .

 

[branchg]

There is no question that both Mon Repos and Tatoi were purchased from the royal family's private money during the reign of the monarchy over the years, however, some of the land and properties were donated by the State as well. Constantine was very greedy in his demands, not to mention the fact that he wanted to be able to return to Greece and live on his former estates. This was unacceptable to the Greek government, which is their perogative.

Constantine received over $30 million in compensation from the Greek government in the end, which is fair, although he claims he donated it to charity, which is highly unlikely.

 

[oxynia]

Much of the property that Constantine was claiming a right to was not personal property at all. Upon installation of the royal family in Greece (back in the mid-1800s...this is a modern invention, not a tradition from centuries ago!), property was granted as official royal residences, etc. When Greece became a republic, the property reverted to the possession of the state. Constantine sued the government for much more than the international courts ruled was his to claim, so his greed was very apparent and not just to the Greeks.

As for his claims to love Greece and to wish to live here as a private citizen, he must remember that this was offered to him when the republic was established and he refused it! He refused to pledge allegiance to the republic and to take a surname, which were required in order for him to be recognized as no threat to the new republic and to receive a proper passport. He refused to declare a surname, insisting instead that he be regarded officially as "king of the Hellenes" and refused to declare his support and allegiance to the new Greece. Therefore, he was kicked out. His exile is entirely of his own doing, as he had been given options to remain in the country he claims to love so well. Fact is, he loves his "position" more and his arrogance supercedes any affection he has for Greece or its people.

As a Greek citizen, I can tell you that nothing would ever come between me and my citizenship here. But Constantine has other values and priorities that he simply won't recognize publicly. He prefers to play the role of victim instead and it just makes him all the more pathetic.

 

[acdc1]

The Coup

Al Jazeera English did a special on King Constantine, primarily focussing on the coup.

YouTube - King Without a Country - 10 Mar 07 - Part 1 here's the link to the first part

YouTube - King Without a Country - 10 Mar 07 - Part 2 here's the second part

It must have been tough for them. He was so young when he became king, as well. He says that on the night of the coup, his family was watching a movie. His mother and Princess Irene left early, because they didn't like the movie, and Queen Sofia, who was visiting her brother, wanted to leave but he made her stay since he never got to see her. When the movie was finished I think it was one of his advisors called and let the king hear the bullets coming into his house. I know how the King and his family reacted, but does anyone know about Frederika, Princess Irene, or Queen Sofia, or any other Greek royals affected?

 

[fanletizia]

A portrait of former Queen of Greece Frederica is seen at a prefabricated storage facility at the former royal estate at Tatoi, on the northewestern outskirts of Athens, Tuesday, June 12, 2007. The Greek government on Tuesday announced plans to turn the sprawilng former royal estate into ecological and historical park. Greece's last monarch, King Constantine II, now 66, was deposed in 1967. In 1991, the Greek government allowed Constantine to remove hundreds of items from Tatoi, which were sold at an auction later that year

At Auction on Yahoo! News Photos

 

[Bella]

I'm sure this question has been addressed already, but I can't seem to find it so I'm bringing it up again: What is the protocol about the GRF and their titles? This seems to be a topic of debate elsewhere. I understand that HM Constantine is continued to be addressed as "King" because that was his title at the time of the coup. However, when he passes away, CP Pavlos will not inherit the title because there is no longer a monarchy. Does this mean he will be referred to a "Crown Prince" for the rest of his life? I know that socially Pavlos' children are sometimes referred to as Prince/Princess, but when Konstantine grows up and has his own family, will his children be titled? What about when Pavlos' brothers marry and have children? Will they be known as Princes/Princesses? How correct is this? This is all under the assumption that the Greek monarchy is not restored.

 

[Queen Amina]

Bella, CP Pavlos will probably be called CP for the rest of his life like CP Alexander of Yugoslavia and his children will be addressed as prince/princess for the rest of their lives. However, Pavlos's eldest son may be referred to as Hereditary prince like CP Alexander's eldest son. Note this isn't fact but I'm just taking my cue from the situation from of the Karadjordjevics'

 

[acdc1]

What happens when the kids grow old and die? Will the Greek titles just run out?