Rival Claimants to the French Throne 1: Ending 2020

[Cory]

Will we see in the future two Orleanist Pretenders?

 

[Benjamin]

Will we see in the future two Orleanist Pretenders?

No.

The Duke of Vendome is the legal guardian of the Count of Clermont.

After the death of the Count of Paris, obviously whatever Prince Jean desires is what will take place.

 

[Duc_et_Pair]

Will we see in the future two Orleanist Pretenders?

Yes. In May Prince Henri announced that his son Prince Francois, by right of male primogeniture, is his Heir. Because of his disability, the Prince's brother Prince Jean would act as a Regent, assisted by a regency council.

Two months later Prince Jean waves with a document from his grandfather, whom not only tried to rule beyond his grave but also interferes in the principle that the Heir is by order of male primogeniture in a legitime and approved marriage. So Prince Jean does not wish to be a Regent for his brother: he wants to bypass his brother and become the head himself.

So yes: there will be two different heads, when this silly feud continues, but de facto Prince Jean will always be the boss, in both scenarios.

I am following Henri here. He acknowledges that his eldest son is not able to act as the head of the House. Therefore a regency will be installed: his son, the firstborn prince of the blood royal, is respected but at the same time there is an eye for reality. Probably Prince Francois himself will have no clue, but it is a chique solution.

 

[Cory]

It is almost useless as a debate but it's another proof that Prince Henri and Prince Jean are not very close.

 

[Ish]

Will we see in the future two Orleanist Pretenders?

Yes, but also no.

Some Orleanists will likely support François as the pretender, but given his disabilities it's unlikely he'll be presenting himself as such. François is unmarried and has no children, so when he passes his claim will go to Jean or his heirs (Jean has 4 children, 2 of them sons who could "inherit").

 

[Cory]

The Duke of Orleans is without any doubt very respected in the orleanist circles.

 

[Duc_et_Pair]

The Duke of Orleans is without any doubt very respected in the orleanist circles.

You mean Prince Jacques, who is married with Gersende, daughter of the Duc de Sabran-Pontevès?

I have no doubt he is a respected gentleman under orléanists but what do you mean? Has Prince Jacques made remarkable achievements or so?

 

[lucien]

The Duke of Orleans is without any doubt very respected in the orleanist circles.

Ofcourse he his.But other then that the Orléons branch has always consisted of troublemakers,treators and backward scemes throughout history while the Bourbons were on the Throne..and then the claims to and fights over a non-existent Throne,in their case.... is beyond the rediculous and sooo out of touch of time and circumstances indeed.It is history repeated to a fault...

Other than that,it is a rainy day with dry spells..

 

[MAfan]

Yes, but also no.

Some Orleanists will likely support François as the pretender, but given his disabilities it's unlikely he'll be presenting himself as such. François is unmarried and has no children, so when he passes his claim will go to Jean or his heirs (Jean has 4 children, 2 of them sons who could "inherit").

I agree that most likely Prince François won't personally are any claim, but I wonder if instead the other two appointed members of the "regency council" will support his claim on his behalf against Prince Jean. This would indeed start another feud.

 

[Duc_et_Pair]

Ofcourse he his.But other then that the Orléons branch has always consisted of troublemakers,treators and backward scemes throughout history while the Bourbons were on the Throne..and then the claims to and fights over a non-existent Throne,in their case.... is beyond the rediculous and sooo out of touch of time and circumstances indeed.It is history repeated to a fault...

Other than that,it is a rainy day with dry spells..

It is not so much about the non-existent throne of France but about the headship of the House. This week the Duke of Westminster passed away and his 25-years old son, Earl Grosvenor, became the new Duke and head of the family. Was the Earl mentally disabled, he still would have been the new Duke of Westminster. Simply because he is the most senior legitimate male primogeniture.

Prince Henri d'Orléans, despite all his pecularities, sees it correctly, in my humble opinion: his eldest son Prince François simply is -after him- the most senior legitimate male primogeniture in the House of Orléans and therefore the future head of the family. He acknowledges that Prince François will not be able to act. So he appointed his younger son Prince Jean as Regent, with the assistence of a regency council. A quite neat solution with respect to the undeniable birthright of Prince François.

What Prince Jean wants is just power. He is willing to completely overlook his brother's birthrights and become the head of the House himself. Why? Because he wants to have free hand. He is not waiting to be controlled by a regency council, which might clash with his decisions.



---------------



When thinking about similar examples of disabled royals, always their rights were respected by appointing a Regent.
Two examples:

De Bourbon de Parme
1
From 1907-1939 Prince Elias de Bourbon de Parme became Regent for his mentally disabled eldest brother Prince Henri, the Duke of Parma.

2
From 1939-1950 Prince Elias de Bourbon de Parme became Regent for his mentally disabled elder brother Prince Joseph, the Duke of Parma.

3
In 1950 the Regent himself, Prince Elias, finally became the Duke of Parma himself after the death of his brother Prince Joseph.



Von Lippe / Zur Lippe-Biesterfeld
1
1897-1904 Count Ernst zur Lippe-Biesterfeld, became Regent over the mentally disabled Prince Alexander, the Fürst von Lippe.

2
1904-1905 Count Leopold zur Lippe-Biesterfeld followed his father Ernst as Regent over Prince Alexander, the Fürst von Lippe.

3
In 1905 the Regent himself, Count Leopold, finally became the Fürst von Lippe himself after the death of Prince Alexander. His direct Lippe-Biesterfeld descendants became the new Princes of Lippe. The comital House Lippe-Biesterfeld became a princely House.

 

[eya]

The secretariat of Prince Henri d'Orléans has published a communiqué which responds to the claims made by his second son prince Jean d'Orléans.

Communiqué | Le Comte de Paris


"Who'll be the next King of the France?"

https://t.co/oxbTD9gDLB

 

[Duc_et_Pair]

Prince Henri is 100% right. The head of the Royal House of France is determined by the firstborn male successor and that is, to the left or to the right, Prince François.

Sadly Prince François is mentally disabled, so Prince Henri wants his younger son Prince Jean to be the Regent for his eldest brother, assisted by a regency council.

Prince Jean simply wants power. He does not like to have his hands tied by a regency council. He simply wants to be the Head of the House, both de jure and de facto. With this he is creating a dangerous precedent, as he is totally neglecting the fundamental principle of the succession in the House of France.

Prince Jean has fallen in my esteem. Very deep. He always would have been Head of the House anyway. Okay, not in name, but as Regent he is practically the Head of the House. But that he simply denies his very own brother's royal birthright...

 

[maria-olivia]

The most repectable attitude towards Prince François is to put him away from unendless quarrels between Father and Sun.
I never saw the Count de Paris and his wife with François and Blanche.
Being head or regent of the House of orléans is actually nothing.

 

[Denville]

oh come this is just daft. Theres NOOOO chance IMO of a French monarchy being restored. So it does not matter what the Bonapartes or Orleans etc do, and they should just give up and lead a quiet life...

 

[Benjamin]

The most repectable attitude towards Prince François is to put him away from unendless quarrels between Father and Sun.
I never saw the Count de Paris and his wife with François and Blanche.
Being head or regent of the House of orléans is actually nothing.

Indeed, it was Madame la Duchesse de Montpensier who was responsible for the upbringing of her children after the then Comte de Clermont became involved with his second wife.

The Duchess was supported whole-heartedly by the late Comte and Comtesse de Paris, as well as by other in-laws (the Duchess of Württemberg, for instance).

Obviously, the children of the Comte de Paris, headed by the Duc de Vendôme, have not forgotten this period.

 

[rominet09]

The most repectable attitude towards Prince François is to put him away from unendless quarrels between Father and Sun.
I never saw the Count de Paris and his wife with François and Blanche.
Being head or regent of the House of orléans is actually nothing.

And there are plenty of pix and videos where Philomena is with François and takes care of him !

 

[Duc_et_Pair]

oh come this is just daft. Theres NOOOO chance IMO of a French monarchy being restored. So it does not matter what the Bonapartes or Orleans etc do, and they should just give up and lead a quiet life...

It has nothing to do with restoring of monarchies. It has everything to do with birthright. To give an example from your own country. Lord Hugh Grosvenor would have been the 7th Duke of Westminster and Heir to the immense fortune no matter how suitable he is. There is no way to deny him that position. He is the most senior heir of the body male. Period.

Prince François d'Orléans is the legal fils ainé of Prince Henri d'Orléans, the Chef of the ancient and illustrious House of Orléans, born in his legal and religious binding marriage with Marie Therese, Duchess von Württemberg. Purely on base of that core principle he is the Heir.

A younger son unilaterally excluding his eldest brother from the line of succession, purely -as Prince Jean- does, by waving with a private letter from his grandfather, is an extremely dangerous precedent and is unheard of.

To go back to the example of the Duke of Westminster. Imagine that Lord Hugh had a younger brother, waving with a private letter from his grandfather, the 5th Duke, claiming that he should be the head because Lord Hugh would be unsuitable? Im-pos-si-ble. Lord Hugh would always have become the 7th Duke, of course with a regency council looking after his interests.

 

[maria-olivia]

the actual Comte de Paris needs a Regent.

 

[Duc_et_Pair]

the actual Comte de Paris needs a Regent.

If the family thinks so, they should start a procedure to declare the Prince unfit, as thousands and thousands families do every year, to obtain custody, guardianship or regency for another family-member.

From what I hear and read, there seems little wrong with the mental capacities of Prince Henri. He seems not to suffer Alzheimer or another form of dementia. His comments on the events which engulfed France, on the situation of the House of Orléans and his remarks in Point de Vue about the anciennité of Luis-Alfonso de Borbón show a sharp pen and a shrewd mind.

 

[Marengo]

Isnt prince Jean more roman than the pope? Did he take issue with his brother succeeding before him or did he take issue with the regency counsil and would he prefer to be the only member of it?

 

[duke of poliganc]

actually i don't think the duke of vendome did anything wrong there is no power in being the head of a former reigning royal house no money or wealth to inherent or anything but the title and IMO prince François wouldn't care about a the title anyway , Infante Jaime of Spain, Duke of Segovia, Duke of Anjou Because he was deaf as the result of a childhood operation, he renounced his rights to the Spanish throne for himself and his descendants on 21 June/23 June 1933 and i think being deaf as the result of a operation isn't a good reason for renunciation

 

[Duc_et_Pair]

actually i don't think the duke of vendome did anything wrong there is no power in being the head of a former reigning royal house no money or wealth to inherent or anything but the title and IMO prince François wouldn't care about a the title anyway , Infante Jaime of Spain, Duke of Segovia, Duke of Anjou Because he was deaf as the result of a childhood operation, he renounced his rights to the Spanish throne for himself and his descendants on 21 June/23 June 1933 and i think being deaf as the result of a operation isn't a good reason for renunciation

So: when there is money, obey the rules. When there is no money, pffft, do what you want?

If this is allowed what will stop Prince Jean to revoke his eldest son Prince Gaston and appoint his youngest son as his Heir, it he wishes so?

The example of Don Jaime is not suitable here. He was deaf and mute. He himself gave up his rights. Not once but twice. It was not his younger brother trying to bypass him. That is exactly what happens here and it has all to do with power and wealth.

Of course: from the once dazzling Orléans fortune little is left, thanks to the extremely poor management by the very same grandfather which is the base of Prince Jean's coup. But there are still very nice properties. Prince Jean and Princess Philomena live in the Château-Royal d'Amboise. Not exactly a pauvre family in a dreadful banlieue...

 

[Benjamin]

The example of Don Jaime is not suitable here. He was deaf and mute. He himself gave up his rights. Not once but twice. It was not his younger brother trying to bypass him. That is exactly what happens here and it has all to do with power and wealth.

The prince and his sister Princesse Blanche, Mademoiselle de Valois, were born mentally handicapped due to their mother, the then Comtesse de Clermont, contracting toxoplasmosis and their being affected by it in vitro.

Since the time when the Duchesse de Montpensier was unable to do so, SAR le Duc de Vendôme has been his siblings' legal guardian as well as their provider - to the complete absence in this role of their father, the current old Comte.

 

[Katrianna]

Did Don Jaime give up his right of his own volition or was he gently persuaded by the powers that be?
Prince Francois may very well predecease his father as mentally handicapped individuals became more susceptible to infections and diseases as they grow older. I same may, because, as is life, sometimes it happens and sometimes not to people. Then Jean would be Heir apparent. Jean also could have waited until the Count of Paris died and then moved to make himself Head of The House of Orleans. I'm surprised at his declaration at this time.
The Orleans have had so much family infighting, they could easily put the Bourbon Parmas and Two Sicilies and other disputing Royal Houses to shame.

 

[lucien]

the actual Comte de Paris needs a Regent.

No,really,this family is couleur locale at its worst,truly & honestly,
it's almost mental!

 

[Marengo]

Did king Alfonso XIII actually aknowledge his own rights to the French throne? I do not think he did, so he could not bypass his son Jaime for the French one since there were no French rights to claim. This re-vival of the French claims only happened several years after the death of king Alfonso XIII in 1941. It is mainly fueled hby the legitimists wish to see anybody but the house of Orleans as claimants.

The infighting of the house of Orleans or the other branches has no effect on their claims.

Considering the duke of Vendôme seems rather conservative in his views, I am actually surprised he does not agree that his elder brother should succeed to the claim before him.

Prince Jean and Princess Philomena live in the Château-Royal d'Amboise

I believe they live in maison Philidor on the royal domain in Dreux with his mother. The place belongs to the fondation Saint-Louis, which made some difficulties and recently questioned the duchess' right to use the house.

http://www.lechorepublicain.fr/eure...aint-louis-eclate-au-grand-jour_11894854.html

http://www.pressreader.com/france/point-de-vue/20160518/282033326422492

 

[Duc_et_Pair]

The prince and his sister Princesse Blanche, Mademoiselle de Valois, were born mentally handicapped due to their mother, the then Comtesse de Clermont, contracting toxoplasmosis and their being affected by it in vitro.

Since the time when the Duchesse de Montpensier was unable to do so, SAR le Duc de Vendôme has been his siblings' legal guardian as well as their provider - to the complete absence in this role of their father, the current old Comte.

Who cares for who is not exactly the point here. Had the 6th Duke of Westmister zere comma zero contact with his eldest son, for an example because Lord Hugh would have lived with his mother in Timbuktu, he still is the 7th Duke of Westminster because he is the eldest son.

The venom is is the detail here. To the right or to the left, Prince Jean will always be the one in charge because his eldest brother Prince François is unable to manage his interests.

What Prince Henri wants is the usual solution we also have seen in other royal families (I have given the examples of Bourbon-Parma and Lippe): the eldest son is Head of the House but under custody of a Regent.

What Prince Jean wants is exactly the unusual solution: "My brother may be the eldest but he is handicapped. Push him aside. I want to be the Chef!"

But while Prince Jean waves with a letter from the previous Chef, he forgets that there is an actual Chef which makes the arrangements. Prince François may be Prince Jean's brother. But he is Prince Henri's very own son too. How would he feel when he is the Chef and his own Prince Gaston tries a coup by showing a letter from the previous Chef?

What I sense here is that a personal dislike for Prince Henri and a personal like for Prince Jean is polluting a clear view here. But one should look to what is really happening here, apart from personal preferences.

 

[Cory]

Why don't the Count of Paris and the Duke of Vendome meet and try to sort their debate instead of having public statements?

 

[Denville]

What a load of nonsense. The French monarchy is gone, it wont be restored. Just stop all this nonsense...

 

[Cory]

The monarchists are even today in France. To know the future is a gift only of prophets.