Luis Alfonso de Borbon and Family ('Duke and Duchess of Anjou') 2: November 2008-

[Harold]

Sorry if this question has been asked before, but according to Wiki Louis Alphonso and King Juan Carlos do not get along very well. Apparently, Juan Carlos does not like the fact that Louis Alphsonso styles himself head of the House of Bourbon and Duke of Anjou. Why should this upset Juan Carlos? What is the disagreement that I am missing?

Thank you for helping me clarify this.

[EmpressRouge]

All I know is that unlike many other royal families, JC supports the Count of Paris Orleans branch as the claimants to the French throne. Other than that, I'm just speculating. LA's mother, Carmen is Franco's granddaughter. I wonder if she and LA's father, Alfonso, tried to maneuver themselves onto the Spanish throne even though Franco had already named JC as his successor and Alfonso's father, Jaime, had renounced the throne for himself and his descendants. I heard JC and Sofia had to be careful not to upset Carmen and Alfonso before Franco's death.

[Thribette]

More precisely, I read an answer of the Spanish Royal House to a duke of Anjou's relative, stating that the House of Spain recognized the Orléans as the French royal family, because Queen Isabel II of Spain recognized Louis-Philippe, King of the French from 1830 to 1848. I find this position little logical, as the same Isabel II later recognized Emperor Napoléon III of the French, so why don't they recognize the Bonaparte family?

My personal thought upon King Juan-Carlos' hate to the duke of Anjou (because he clearly hates him) is due to several factors linked with General Franco, who ruled Spain from 1939 to 1975. I feel that King Juan-Carlos hates Franco, still 35 years after his death. And not only the duke of Anjou is a grand-grandson of Franco, but also, given the written Spanish succession rules and jurisprudence (not what H.M. Juan-Carlos tries to make believe), if he had not existed, Juan-Carlos would be today the legitimate heir of the Spanish throne, not "only" the legitimate king because of Franco's will.

This is only my personal opinion upon the King of Spain's attitude, I don't assert it as the right explanation...

[maria-olivia]

May you imagine Juan Carlos's cousin , the Duke of Cadix marrying without any love Franco's grandaughter.This was easy to see at their faces during their pathetic wedding.
I never saw Carmen's tiara again, perhaps it was a loan.

[MAfan]

Interesting point; but I see a little fault: even if Franco didn't choose Juan Carlos as his successor, Juan Carlos would be anyway the "right" Heir and the only claimant to the Spanish Throne (apart from the Carlists). That's because both the first and the second sons of King Alfonso XIII, Alfonso and Jaime (the grandfather of Luis Alfonso) renounced to their rights in 1933; therefore their younger brother Juan became the heir of his father the King, and after him the headship of the Spanish RF and the claims to the Spanish Throne went to Juan Carlos.
Moreover, as far as I know Luis Alfonso never claimed anything about the Spanish Throne; he only claimed the French Throne, as well as his father and grandfather did.

[EmpressRouge]

Originally Posted by MAfan

Moreover, as far as I know Luis Alfonso never claimed anything about the Spanish Throne; he only claimed the French Throne, as well as his father and grandfather did.

I've read that Luis Alfonso does not claim the French throne either, hence no Legitimist supporters were invited to his wedding. Juan Carlos's beef w/ LA is that he signs and claims the title of Duke of Anjou , as the senior male-line descendant of Felipe V, who held that title as a petit-fils de France before he inherited the Spanish throne. But the title was given to subsequent French princes and no Spanish infante claimed the title until Jaime (LA's grandfather). The Count of Paris took LA's father to court for using the title. I heard that LA signed "Anjou" on an invitation to the Prince of Asturias' wedding or wasn't invted because he had signed something earlier.

[MAfan]

I remember he was not invited, due to his claims to the title of Duke of Anjou. And also remember to have read something about the trial of the Count of Paris, the Duke of Castro and the Duke of Parma against Alfonso; quite funny, they took him to court in the republican France for a dinastyc matter...
Btw, the only "title" that both Juan Carlos and Luis Alfonso can claim is the title of Head of Bourbon Family, and therefore of all the branches of the Family (and I'm not sure about the title of Duke of Bourbon; anyone can enlighten me on this matter?). Maybe Juan Carlos wants also this Headship?
Btw, if Luis Alfonso doesn't have sons, it won't be a problem in less then a century.

[Vecchiolarry]

Hi,

Probaby:
Isabella II recognized Napoleon III as Emperor because she was living in Paris in exile and didn't want to upset her arrangement(s) there with the French government.
Where else could she go? I dare say Queen Victoria didn't want her!!

Larry

[EmpressRouge]

If Luis Alfonso doesn't have sons, and Felipe doesn't either (which seems a possibility), who is next in line to become head of the Bourbon family?

[MAfan]

After Felipe is the Duke of Sevilla, Don Francisco de Paula de Borbon y Escasany; he is a descendant of Don Enrique, a brother of King Francisco de Asis (husband of Queen Isabel II).

[maria-olivia]

I did not speak about LA but his father's wedding. At this time General Franco was still alive and JC Prince. I remember Carmen enterring the church not at her father's arm but at her grandfather's who could hardly walk. Who was proud : Franco's wife!

[The Grand Prince]

Originally Posted by Vecchiolarry

Isabella II recognized Napoleon III as Emperor because she was living in Paris in exile and didn't want to upset her arrangement(s) there with the French government. Where else could she go? I dare say Queen Victoria didn't want her!

Why did Queen Victoria not want Isabella? One would have thought that she would have sympathised with her, seeing that both were women at the top of a male dominated heirarchy.

[Vecchiolarry]

Hi GP,

I really don't know for sure that Queen Victoria didn't want Isabella.
But, she probably wouldn't want someone of such loose morals & damaged reputation publically.
Also, she wouldn't want to upset the Spanish, French and Germans, all of whom were involved in the Spanish succession question..
Just my interpretation.

Larry

[RJ TAYLER]

Not to mention the whole 'Catholic thing' just at the time of the Reform Act going through Westminster.

[frank22]

Interview to Mrs. Maragarita Vargas, wife of Prince Luis Alfonso de Borbon:

http://www.elmundo.es/papel/2010/02/20/laotracronica/22736613.html

[Thribette]

Thank you very much, Frank22, for the link, I hadn't noticed the interview, that contains a few errors but also many very interesting things.

Maria Olivia, I have exactly the opposite impression upon the marriage of Don Alfonso (who wasn't yet duke of Cadiz, nor duke of Anjou) and María del Carmen Martínez-Bordiú y Franco. My impression is that they were really, deeply in love. The bride had already shown some sentimental instability, her father had already refused several potential husbands for his "princess", and one can imagine that she fell in love with this handsome prince, suntanned ski champion, and her love ended after a few years (the problems seemed to start in 1975, a bit more than three years after the marriage, and she went out in 1978, the divorce being pronounced in 1982), while his love was far for being extincted.

MAfan, the Spanish succession laws authorize a king to abdicate, but a mere prince cannot renounce to the throne without a validation by the Cortes generales (kind of parliament) without which none modification to the successoral order can be made.
I tend to think that king Alfonso XIII had the firm hope of going back to the throne after the victory of Franco, then he would have been able to convene the Cortes which, after the renounciations of his elder sons, would have probably (not totally certainly, for Don Jaime) excluded them from the successoral order, but this didn't happen. So, at Alfonso XIII's death in 1941, in spite of his wish to see hir third son Don Juan being his successor, legally Don Jaime was his successor (as the elder, Don Alfonso, had already died).

[Thribette]

EmpressRouge and MAfan, the duke of Anjou was invited to the Prince of Asturias' marriage (and attended, because as did his father he always tried to have peace with Spanish royal family), but as a mere Excellence while, legally and merely for Spain, he is still a Royal Highness (neither his wife, nor his daughter are RH for Spain, of course they are so for France). And his future wife, while he had already announced his own marriage, was not invited.
EmpressRouge, the duke of Anjou did invite several legitimist personalities, but many, who were not invited, were deeply disappointed and some of them made it know it more or less publicly, hence the rumour that no legitimist was invited. Another disambiguation to make, is that he often repeats that he is pretender to nothing, but his refusal is to the word of pretender, because the word pretender implies that he is not, while he states he is de jure king of France, not a mere "pretender".
MAfan, king Juan Carlos acts somehow as head of the Bourbon family, as the elder crowned head which gives him some authority, nevertheless he has never pretended to the bourbon chiefhood. For instance, when in 1983 the Bourbon family resolved the case of the Two-Sicilies dynastic battle, in fact the jurists who examined legal issues were from the Spanish royal house, but the document that was edited to announce the conclusion (in favor of Don Carlos) was signed first by Don Alfonso, duke of Anjou and of Cadiz, as chief of the House of Bourbon, secondly by king Juan Carlos as head of the Spanish branch.
So, I don't think king Juan Carlos tries to usurpate any chiefhood in the House of Bourbon, simply he reproaches the duke of Anjou for his mere existence, as a grand-grandson of "behated" Franco, and most of all as the only (now with his daughter, soon with his twins) obstacle between him and the throne in ancient rules, making that he is "only" the king chosen by Franco (and approved by the elder princes and the Cortes, of course).

[frank22]

For Thribette, check two recent interviews made to Mrs. Carmen M. Bordiú, the mother of Luis Alfonso de Borbon:

ELMUNDO.ES | SUPLEMENTOS | MAGAZINE 542 | CARMEN MARTÍNEZ-BORDIÚ

COSAS - Una Revista Internacional

[Aubisse]

frank22,

thank you for your links !

[loyalsubject]

I think they make a great couple and IMHO she is VERY beautiful.

I have one misunderstanding that I could never figure out and I hope someone can clear it for me;

I realize Louise Alphonse is considered head of the entire Bourbon dynasty because he is from the eldest branch of Alphonse XIII of Spain.

However, why isn't the head of the Bourbons the Bourbon-Parma branch?

Charles X of france was the last King of France and Navarre to be the head of the Bourbons. On this we all agree. But his bloodline did not extinguish, so why did the head of the dynasty pass to the Spanish Branch?

Charles X surviving bloodline goes like this:
-1)Charles X of France father of:
---2)Charles Duke of Berry who was father of:
--------3)Louise Marie Thérèse d'Artois Duchess of Parma who was mother of:
------------4)Roberto I Duke of Parma who's grandsons and grand daughters still live today as dukes, princesses and whatnot.

So if Charles X direct descendants still survive, why did the head of the house of Bourbons go to the Spanish Bourbons when Henry d'Artois died?

Unless the head of house can only be carried by males? Thus invalidating Louise Marie Thérèse back when Henry d' Artois died? But wouldn't that invalidate female Isabel II of Spain and all her descendants as well?

???