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  #601  
Old 02-02-2019, 10:40 AM
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Originally Posted by Tatiana Maria View Post
In Spain Luis Alfonso does enjoy a title equal to a Spanish grandee (Excellency), and his French official documents recognize him as HRH the Duke of Anjou. (The titles claimed by all three pretenders to the French throne are recognized in the republic of France.)

Art.7 of the Royal Decree 1368/1987 states that:


"Los miembros de la familia del Rey Don Juan Carlos I de Borbón, que en la actualidad tuviesen reconocido el uso de un Título de la Casa Real y el tratamiento de Alteza Real, podrán conservarlo con carácter vitalicio, pero no sus consortes ni descendientes."


My understanding is that the article above covers the late Duke of Cádiz (Luis Alfonso's father), who was still alive in 1987, but it doesn't extend any title or the style of "Excellency" to Luis Alfonso properly.


I suppose that his style of "Excellency" in Spain comes then from his status as the heir to his mother's dukedom and grandeeship. Is that correct ?
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  #602  
Old 02-02-2019, 11:00 AM
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Originally Posted by Mbruno View Post
Art.7 of the Royal Decree 1368/1987 states that:


"Los miembros de la familia del Rey Don Juan Carlos I de Borbón, que en la actualidad tuviesen reconocido el uso de un Título de la Casa Real y el tratamiento de Alteza Real, podrán conservarlo con carácter vitalicio, pero no sus consortes ni descendientes."


My understanding is that the article above covers the late Duke of Cádiz (Luis Alfonso's father), who was still alive in 1987, but it doesn't extend any title or the style of "Excellency" to Luis Alfonso properly.
The article confirmed that Luis Alfonso did not have the right to a Spanish HRH or royal title, but did not deprive him of non-royal styles. On the list of guests attending the wedding of the Prince of Asturias he was "Excmo. Señor Don Luis Alfonso de Borbón y Martínez-Bordiú".

http://www.casareal.es/ES/Documents/...osCatedral.pdf




Related to this discussion, Mbruno and I discussed the styles of non-royal descendants of the Spanish royal family in the thread below:

http://www.theroyalforums.com/forums...ml#post2134723
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  #603  
Old 02-02-2019, 11:31 AM
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Himself , his sons are Dukes without Royal Highnesses.
The Orléans are Dukes with Royal Highnesses.
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  #604  
Old 02-02-2019, 11:45 AM
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Originally Posted by maria-olivia View Post
Himself , his sons are Dukes without Royal Highnesses.
The Orléans are Dukes with Royal Highnesses.
Spanish and French law differ in that regard. In Spanish official documents, Luis Alfonso and his children are neither dukes nor HRHs. In French official documents (see post #603), they are both dukes and HRHs.
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  #605  
Old 02-02-2019, 12:36 PM
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Originally Posted by Tatiana Maria View Post
[.....]
To be more specific, Carlos de Bourbon de Parme claims to be Duke of Parma, but his claim is not recognized in Italy, the state which annexed the duchy of Parma.
Every year the Duke and Duchess of Parma are officially received in their former Duchies
To illustrate that the Italians take it serious: la principessa Luisa Irene, Marchesa di Castell'Arquato and la principessa Cecilia Maria, Contessa di Bercato, are carried by the mayors of Castell'Arquato respectively of Bercato: https://www.gazzettadiparma.it/resiz...?1507466873000

Here you see the Mayor of Parma, the Prefect, and the Commander of the Carabinieri di Parma escorting il principe Carlo Saverio and principessa Anna Maria di Borbone-Parma, Duke and Duchess of Parma and Piacenza: https://www.altezzareale.com/wp-cont.../IMG_17371.JPG

If they were nobodies, this would not happen, with official Italy turning out.
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  #606  
Old 02-02-2019, 12:47 PM
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My comment was discussing only legal recognition of his claims to titles and sovereignty. Naturally, I would never describe any of the individuals discussed on this site as "nobodies".
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  #607  
Old 02-02-2019, 02:28 PM
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So, what's the purpose? Make sure they are American citizens (but why)? And/or to not favour Spain over France (or the other way around)?
I have the same questions.

All of the members of the House of Orléans (after the Law of Exile was repealed in 1950) have been born in France.

This bar never existed for the Infante Jaime and his descendants.
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  #608  
Old 02-02-2019, 02:34 PM
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I just realized that Luis Alfonso called his son, born on the day before the count of Paris' funeral, Enrique (Henri in Spanish)...
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  #609  
Old 02-06-2019, 05:54 AM
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Spanish Hola has the first photos of Luis Alfonso and Margarita with their newborn son (though not really visible ) The photos were taken on February 4, when the family left the hospital in New York City:


** Pic ** hola: Solo en ¡HOLA!, Luis Alfonso y Margarita de Borbón, primeras imágenes con su hijo recién nacido, en Nueva York **
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  #610  
Old 02-23-2019, 06:28 PM
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I am really sorry not to be able to attend the mass this Sunday morning at the Val-de-Grâce chapel. I would have liked so much to remember there the late Duke of Anjou and of Cádiz, and his mother whose funeral was held there, and rejoiced in the birth of our little prince Henry, as well as my family.

By the way, the duke of Anjou is legally a Spanish Royal Highness as he was already so in 1987, though the Casa Real repeatedly treated him as Excellentísimo Señor.

And thank you very much, Iceflower, for the photo.
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  #611  
Old 02-23-2019, 07:15 PM
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By the way, the duke of Anjou is legally a Spanish Royal Highness as he was already so in 1987, though the Casa Real repeatedly treated him as Excellentísimo Señor.

And thank you very much, Iceflower, for the photo.



I don't think so. His father, the Duke of Anjou and Cadiz, was a Spanish HRH under Franco's 1972 decree. The royal decree of 1987 confirmed that title/style, but explicitly barred it from being transmitted to the Duke's offspring, including Luis Alfonso, who was never a Spanish HRH in his own right.




My interpretation is that D. Luis Alfonso is an Excelentísimo Señor though because his mother is a duchess and grandee of Spain and heirs to a grandeeship are entitled to the style of Excellency.
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  #612  
Old 02-24-2019, 08:44 AM
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He is not Royal in Spain but
He is Royal in France
I cannot understand such a situation !
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  #613  
Old 02-24-2019, 03:12 PM
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Originally Posted by maria-olivia View Post
He is not Royal in Spain but
He is Royal in France
I cannot understand such a situation !
How can he not be royal in Spain, when he is the great grandson of Spain King Alfonso XIII. "People are not made royal, people are born royal"

"Louis Alphonse is patrilineally the senior great-grandson of King Alfonso XIII of Spain. However, his grandfather Infante Jaime, Duke of Segovia, renounced his rights to the Spanish throne for himself and his descendants due to his disability. The crown of Spain has descended to his second cousin, King Felipe VI of Spain. Through his mother, he is also a great-grandson of Spain's caudillo, General Francisco Franco and through his father, a great-great-great-grandson of Queen Victoria of the United Kingdom."
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  #614  
Old 02-24-2019, 03:34 PM
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How can he not be royal in Spain, when he is the great grandson of Spain King Alfonso XIII. "People are not made royal, people are born royal"

"Louis Alphonse is patrilineally the senior great-grandson of King Alfonso XIII of Spain. However, his grandfather Infante Jaime, Duke of Segovia, renounced his rights to the Spanish throne for himself and his descendants due to his disability. The crown of Spain has descended to his second cousin, King Felipe VI of Spain. Through his mother, he is also a great-grandson of Spain's caudillo, General Francisco Franco and through his father, a great-great-great-grandson of Queen Victoria of the United Kingdom."
Exactly because of that. Had his grandfather not renounced his rights, history might have been different and he would probably be the king of Spain (although his mother being Franco's granddaughter might have prevented that from happening or from re-establishing a somewhat stable monarchy). Being a great-grandson of Franco surely does not make him royal...

In short, renouncing rights (or being stripped of your rights) has consequences and one of them is that your descendants are typically not royals. In Scandinavian countries the princes (who married without consent) themselves were already stripped of their titles. Very few would question whether their great-grandchildren would be royals; in most (all?) cases they are nobles but clearly not royals. Within other royal families even male-line grandchildren of a monarch (of an approved marriage) are not necessarily royals (for example the Dutch).
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  #615  
Old 02-24-2019, 03:39 PM
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How can he not be royal in Spain, when he is the great grandson of Spain King Alfonso XIII. "People are not made royal, people are born royal"
The original posters were discussing his being legally a Royal Highness in France, but not in Spain. Incidentally, there are many monarchies where people can be made royal indeed - Luis Alfonso's father was one such person.

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Exactly because of that. Had his grandfather not renounced his rights, history might have been different and he would probably be the king of Spain [...]
His grandfather might have been king if he had not renounced his rights, but I don't think Luis Alfonso would have. Weren't descendants from morganatic marriages barred from succeeding to the throne until the 1970s?
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  #616  
Old 02-24-2019, 03:44 PM
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The original posters were discussing his being legally a Royal Highness in France, but not in Spain. Incidentally, there are many monarchies where people can be made royal indeed - Luis Alfonso's father was one such person.

His grandfather might have been king if he had not renounced his rights, but I don't think Luis Alfonso would have. Weren't descendants from morganatic marriages barred from succeeding to the throne until the 1970s?
I agree. That's why I said 'probably'; it doesn't seem farfetched to think that he might not have been born as other marriage decisions might have been taken in that case.
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  #617  
Old 02-26-2019, 07:52 AM
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Louis Alfonso wish her mother for her 58th Birthday today!

https://www.instagram.com/p/BuWBZ2QhLGo/

Louis Alfonso wish to his daughter Eugenie for her birthday today!!

https://www.instagram.com/p/Bumq2qqhft4/
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  #618  
Old 02-26-2019, 08:27 AM
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My interpretation is that D. Luis Alfonso is an Excelentísimo Señor though because his mother is a duchess and grandee of Spain and heirs to a grandeeship are entitled to the style of Excellency.
Do you mean his father? His mother wasn't yet a duchess in 2004 when he was styled Excelentísimo Señor at the wedding of the Prince of Asturias.
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  #619  
Old 02-26-2019, 09:53 AM
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Do you mean his father? His mother wasn't yet a duchess in 2004 when he was styled Excelentísimo Señor at the wedding of the Prince of Asturias.

Probably it was a reflex when seeing the surname De Borbón: "ow, that must be Excelentísimo Señor". But it is not really a big deal. Even on dustbins in the street uou can often read Exc.mo Ay.to (The Most Excellent Council).
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  #620  
Old 02-26-2019, 11:41 AM
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Do you mean his father? His mother wasn't yet a duchess in 2004 when he was styled Excelentísimo Señor at the wedding of the Prince of Asturias.



No, I meant his mother. Luis Alfonso could not derive the style of Excelentísimo Señor from his father because his father's grandeeship was not hereditary and his father wasn't an Infante either.


The Wikipedia seems to agree with me . Under "Titles and styles in Spain", Luis Alfonso is listed as "The Most Excellent" only after 2018, when his mother became a duchess and a grandee and he became the heir apparent to the grandeeship. I am not quite sure though why Wikipedia says that he was entitled to the style of "The Most Illustrious" before that.


With respect to the style used for him at Felipe's wedding, I suppose the Court wrongly assumed that any child of a Spanish HRH other than the Prince or Princess of Asturias is automatically an "Excelentissimo Señor", ignoring that this is only true for children of an Infante or an Infanta, which again is not Luis's case.
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