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  #21  
Old 08-29-2018, 03:28 PM
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Originally Posted by QueenEmpath View Post
Taking about French Royalty, what happened to Louis XVI of France and Marie Antonette's descendants after French Revolution?
Their son Louis was murdered in prison aged 9 and their daughter Marie-Therese ended up rallying the masses of Bordeaux against Napoleon (but ended up leaving the city to spare the inhabitants) and was nominally Queen of France for about 20 minutes in 1830 between the abdications of her father-in-law and her husband (who was her cousin).
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  #22  
Old 08-29-2018, 03:32 PM
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Taking about French Royalty, what happened to Louis XVI of France and Marie Antonette's descendants after French Revolution?

Only their eldest daughter, Marie-Thérèse, survived past the revolution. She was able to escape France for Vienna, then to Courland, where her uncle (the future Louis XVIII) lived. He arranged a marriage between her and his nephew/her cousin, Louis-Antoine (the future Louis XIX according to monarchists). The couple then moved to Britain, where they lived until the fall of Napoleon. She returned to France during her uncle’s reign, and even tried to orchestrate a French opposition to Napoleon’s return. When Louis XVIII died her father-in-law became Charles X, and her husband became heir apparent. However, after the Revolution of July 1830, the Bourbons (including Marie-Thérèse and her husband) were exiled from France once again as the Orleans came to the throne. The family returned to Britain at first, before going to what was then Austria. Marie-Thérèse outlived her husband, but died in 1851. She and Louis-Antoine never had children.

Of her siblings, all died young; Louis Joseph died age 7 of a fever and Sophie died at age 11 months due to complications from tuberculosis, both before the revolution. Louis Charles (styled as Louis XVII by monarchists) was imprisoned during the revolution and died at the age of 10.
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  #23  
Old 06-03-2019, 02:10 PM
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It would almost certainly be the House of Orleans that would be restored (neither the Legitimists nor the Bonapartists have anywhere near enough support to make it happen, while the Orleanists might conceivably be able to pull it off if there were a sufficient seachange in public opinion with regard to the republic). It's not an entirely great likelihood for the Orleanists either, though.



Speculatively, I don't necessarily think it's a given that the monarchy would be overthrown soon the hypothetical restoral of the House of Orleans, though. The reaction of the Count of Paris to the Yellow Vests (calling for national unity, but recognizing that the grievances of the Yellow Vests are legitimate and must be resolved) leads me to suspect that, were he to accede to the Throne, the French Monarchy would, by the end of his reign, ultimately be more popular than it has ever been under any other of the descendants of Henry IV. I get the impression that Jean seems to understand the French people better than Macron does, which says a lot seeing as Macron was elected by the French people.
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  #24  
Old 06-03-2019, 02:29 PM
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It would almost certainly be the House of Orleans that would be restored (neither the Legitimists nor the Bonapartists have anywhere near enough support to make it happen, while the Orleanists might conceivably be able to pull it off if there were a sufficient seachange in public opinion with regard to the republic). It's not an entirely great likelihood for the Orleanists either, though.



Speculatively, I don't necessarily think it's a given that the monarchy would be overthrown soon the hypothetical restoral of the House of Orleans, though. The reaction of the Count of Paris to the Yellow Vests (calling for national unity, but recognizing that the grievances of the Yellow Vests are legitimate and must be resolved) leads me to suspect that, were he to accede to the Throne, the French Monarchy would, by the end of his reign, ultimately be more popular than it has ever been under any other of the descendants of Henry IV. I get the impression that Jean seems to understand the French people better than Macron does, which says a lot seeing as Macron was elected by the French people.
France has enough with one Disney land...
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  #25  
Old 06-03-2019, 02:51 PM
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I get the impression that Jean seems to understand the French people better than Macron does, which says a lot seeing as Macron was elected by the French people.
The point is not that Jean has to understand the French people, i that the French people has to understand him. Knowing that he's barely acknowledged by the VAST majority of the people, a part seeing him as a dusty Catholic traditionalist totally out of touch with the man of the street and the other part asa living museum piece from a bygone area.
French people barely tolerate an elected Head of state, you can imagine if they had an unelected one...
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  #26  
Old 06-03-2019, 02:59 PM
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The point is not that Jean has to understand the French people, i that the French people has to understand him. Knowing that he's barely acknowledged by the VAST majority of the people, a part seeing him as a dusty Catholic traditionalist totally out of touch with the man of the street and the other part asa living museum piece from a bygone area.
French people barely tolerate an elected Head of state, you can imagine if they had an unelected one...
Yes,ask Louis XVI and Marie Antoinette...
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  #27  
Old 06-03-2019, 03:01 PM
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Yes,ask Louis XVI and Marie Antoinette...
Exactly ! And Charles X, Louis-Philippe and Napoléon III ...
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  #28  
Old 06-03-2019, 03:19 PM
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Originally Posted by Nico View Post
The point is not that Jean has to understand the French people, i that the French people has to understand him. Knowing that he's barely acknowledged by the VAST majority of the people, a part seeing him as a dusty Catholic traditionalist totally out of touch with the man of the street and the other part asa living museum piece from a bygone area.
French people barely tolerate an elected Head of state, you can imagine if they had an unelected one...
Like I said, I don't believe the House of Orleans has a great chance of being restored to begin with. My thoughts I primarily concerned with the hypothetical scenario unfolding after the undoubtedly unlikely event.

At that point, whether or not a head of state is elected does not matter so much. To illustrate what does matter, I'll quote Pierre-Joseph Proudhon:
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Every revolution first declares itself as a complaint of the people, an accusation against a victorious state of affairs, which the poorest always feel the first. It is against the nature of the masses to revolt, except against what hurts them, physically or morally. Is this a matter for repression, for vengeance, for persecution? What folly! A government whose policy consists in evading the desires of the masses and in repressing their complaints, condemns itself: it is like a criminal who struggles against his remorse by committing new crimes. With each criminal act the conscience of the culprit upbraids him the more bitterly; until at last his reason gives way, and turns him over to the hangman.

There is but one way, which I have already told, to ward off the perils of a revolution; it is to recognize it. The people are suffering and are discontented with their lot. They are like a sick man groaning, a child crying in the cradle. Go to them, listen to their troubles, study the causes and consequences of them, magnify rather than minimize them; then busy yourself without relaxation in relieving the sufferer. Then the revolution will take place without disturbance, as the natural and easy development of the former order of things. No one will notice it; hardly even suspect it. The grateful people will call you their benefactor, their representative, their leader. Thus, in 1789, the National Assembly and the people saluted Louis XVI as the "Restorer of Public Liberty." At that glorious moment, Louis XVI, more powerful than his grandfather, Louis XV, might have consolidated his dynasty for centuries: the revolution offered itself to him as an instrument of rule. The idiot could see only an encroachment upon his rights! This inconceivable blindness he carried with him to the scaffold.
This is why, hypothetically speaking, if the unlikely event of the restoration of the House of Orleans were to unfold, I do not believe it would be quickly followed by a revolution to overthrow the House of Orleans: Jean's reaction to the Yellow Vests suggests that, were he head of state and faced with a growing lot of discontent people, he would do exactly what Proudhon suggests would be necessary to "ward off the perils of a revolution"; namely, to ameliorate the underlying cause of popular discontent by addressing the movement's grievances.
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  #29  
Old 06-03-2019, 03:34 PM
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Considering that a good part of the Yellow vests movement is/was against any form of authority, i have my doubts (and i guess with a Crowned autorithy things would have been far worse).
But its always fun to make hypothesis indeed ...
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  #30  
Old 06-03-2019, 03:48 PM
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Originally Posted by Nico View Post
Considering that a good part of the Yellow vests movement is/was against any form of authority, i have my doubts (and i guess with a Crowned autorithy things would have been far worse).
But its always fun to make hypothesis indeed ...
Opposition to established authority is symptomatic to a revolutionary movement, not causal. To reiterate what Proudhon (himself a virilent revolutionary who earned the moniker of the Father of Modern Anarchism) said in the quote I provided above, "it is against the nature of the masses to revolt, except against what hurts them".


What hurts them, in the case of the Yellow Vests, is not authority, but what those in positions of authority have been doing. Namely, the underlying cause of the Yellow Vest movement has been neoliberal policies that have made it more difficult for lower-income people to maintain an adequate standard of living. The abolition, under Macron, of the wealth tax, coupled with increases in the fuel tax and austerity measures, among other policies that reduced burdens on the rich by placing them on the poor, is what caused this (and what earned Macron the title of président des très riches).
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  #31  
Old 06-03-2019, 04:00 PM
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Namely, the underlying cause of the Yellow Vest movement has been neoliberal policies that have made it more difficult for lower-income people to maintain an adequate standard of living. The abolition, under Macron, of the wealth tax, coupled with increases in the fuel tax and austerity measures, is what caused this.
Mmm lets say from a domestic point a view, things are a bit more complicated. For sure the mentioned mesures didn"t help, but the Yellow Vests movement was (because let's face it it now basically over) a bit of social crisis surrounded by a lot of far right and far left rioters who wanted nothing but anarchy.
At the end of the day Macron is still in power, and his party was not, far from it, laminated during the last European elections.
So back to normal, and the Republic was not in danger for a second ...
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