The Royal Forums Coat of Arms


Join The Royal Forums Today
Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
 
  #61  
Old 01-23-2019, 12:54 PM
Heir Presumptive
 
Join Date: Oct 2013
Location: St Thomas, U.S. Minor Outlying Islands
Posts: 2,095
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kataryn View Post
IMHO people who know about the thre different pretenders to the French throne and where their claim comes from know about the Orléans being a Capeting branch as were the Valois and the main-line Bourbon.



It is after all just a chance name going back to the first of this line's possession and title and is not really a "family name". Just like Schlewsig-Holstein-Sonderburg-Glücksburg is the territorial title of a junior branch of the family which ruled Oldenburg in their main line and not a "family name". Or like the Holstein-Gottorp was the territorial title of the duke (again of a junior branch of the family whose main line ruled Oldenburg) who married Anna Romanova of Russia, their son founded the dynasty of "Romanov-Gottorp". A lot of those ancient European nobles simply don't have a family name but go by the territorial title of the male who founded their branch.



As the Orléans are all from the Royal branch Philippe de Orléans founded, they should go with tradition and be proud of being the House of Orléans. As I said: IMHO.
In the context of French naming conventions, I completely agree that "Orléans" is more conforming to tradition than a name change to "Bourbon" would be.

Indeed, it is perfectly traditional for European nobility to derive their family names from the territories they possess. (The Romanoffs are included among the exceptions; their family name is a patronym, and while they added the titles of the Holstein-Gottorp duchy after the two families were linked by marriage, the family name Romanoff remained the same.) Many territorial names did become family names over the course of time; for example, neither the Orléans nor the Bourbon families currently possess the territories of Orléans or Bourbon, but the names continue to be passed down through the family.
__________________

Reply With Quote
  #62  
Old 01-23-2019, 01:36 PM
Duc_et_Pair's Avatar
Majesty
 
Join Date: Mar 2014
Location: City, Netherlands
Posts: 9,931
Quote:
Originally Posted by maria-olivia View Post
Please , remain on topic.
Jean will remain Duke de Vendome yet.
He does not want to be Comte de Paris now because we will have 2 Comtesses de Paris.
Micaela has an own title: madame la princesse de Joinville. But I hope Jean forgets that "Comte de Paris/Duc de France" theatre anyway. S.A.R. le prince Jean de France. Perfect. Simple. Transparent.
__________________

Reply With Quote
  #63  
Old 01-23-2019, 01:45 PM
Commoner
 
Join Date: Dec 2018
Location: Durham, United States
Posts: 36
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tatiana Maria View Post
Many territorial names did become family names over the course of time
Yes, that is more typical: a territory name like Bourbon / Orléans morphs into a family name. Less typical is the opposite: a territory whose name comes from a family name (Principality of Liechtenstein).
Reply With Quote
  #64  
Old 01-23-2019, 02:04 PM
Al_bina's Avatar
Majesty
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: City, Kazakhstan
Posts: 8,064
Quote:
Originally Posted by Duc_et_Pair View Post
Micaela has an own title: madame la princesse de Joinville. But I hope Jean forgets that "Comte de Paris/Duc de France" theatre anyway. S.A.R. le prince Jean de France. Perfect. Simple. Transparent.
Could Prince Jean change his own title? Who regulates the process of bestowing a title? Does the French government have a say in the process?
__________________
"I never did mind about the little things"
Amanda, "Point of No Return"
Reply With Quote
  #65  
Old 01-23-2019, 02:40 PM
JR76's Avatar
Heir Presumptive
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: Malmö, Sweden
Posts: 2,846
Quote:
Originally Posted by Al_bina View Post
Could Prince Jean change his own title? Who regulates the process of bestowing a title? Does the French government have a say in the process?
As Head of the House, Prince Jean decides over the titles of the family. The French government has no say in all of this and French courts have ruled that they have no jurisdiction in these matters.
Reply With Quote
  #66  
Old 01-23-2019, 03:39 PM
Duc_et_Pair's Avatar
Majesty
 
Join Date: Mar 2014
Location: City, Netherlands
Posts: 9,931
Quote:
Originally Posted by JR76 View Post
As Head of the House, Prince Jean decides over the titles of the family. The French government has no say in all of this and French courts have ruled that they have no jurisdiction in these matters.
I find it a bit a vaudeville. Okay when the head holds the traditional title (Duc de Parme, Duc de Calabrie, Duc d'Orléans, etc.) but that Luis Alfonso names his son Duc de Berry, that Henri named his nephew Duc de Chartres, etc. By which right? It means nothing, just theatre.
Reply With Quote
  #67  
Old 01-23-2019, 03:47 PM
eya eya is offline
Imperial Majesty
 
Join Date: Apr 2015
Location: -, Greece
Posts: 17,785
Official release from Prince Jean

"The funeral of Monsignor the Count of Paris will be celebrated on Saturday, February 2, 2019 at 3 pm, in the royal chapel Saint-Louis de Dreux.

An ardent chapel will be opened in the Royal Chapel, from Wednesday, January 30 to Friday, February 1 from 1 pm to 5 pm. "

"« Les obsèques de Monseigneur le comte de Paris seront célébrées le samedi 2 février 2019 à 15 heures, en la chapelle royale Saint-Louis de Dreux.

Une chapelle ardente sera ouverte à la chapelle royale, du mercredi 30 janvier au vendredi 1er février de 13 heures à 17 heures. »"
Reply With Quote
  #68  
Old 01-23-2019, 03:58 PM
Moonmaiden23's Avatar
Majesty
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Los Angeles, United States
Posts: 9,557
Thank you eya.

But why are they holding the late Comte's obsequies almost two weeks after the date of his passing?

Is there an official cause of death...a stroke, a heart attack?

I don't know the laws in France, but here in the US an autopsy might be mandated for a sudden death if there was no previous illness or accident even if the decedent was of an advanced age like HRH.

I suppose in the final analysis it's not important. He is gone, and his family might want to leave it at that.
__________________
"Be who God intended you to be, and you will set the world on fire" St. Catherine of Siena

"The arc of the moral universe is long, but it bends toward justice". Martin Luther King Jr. 1929-1968
Reply With Quote
  #69  
Old 01-23-2019, 03:58 PM
An Ard Ri's Avatar
Super Moderator
Royal Blogger
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: An Iarmhí, Ireland
Posts: 25,480
I hadn't realized how many burials there were at the Chapelle Royale Saint-Louis de Dreux its like a mini unspoiled St Denis.
__________________

21st of February 1575,Death of Claude de France,Duchess of Lorraine.
Reply With Quote
  #70  
Old 01-23-2019, 04:24 PM
Marengo's Avatar
Administrator
Royal Blogger, TRF Author
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Brussels, Belgium
Posts: 21,247
Quote:
Originally Posted by Duc_et_Pair View Post
I find it a bit a vaudeville. Okay when the head holds the traditional title (Duc de Parme, Duc de Calabrie, Duc d'Orléans, etc.) but that Luis Alfonso names his son Duc de Berry, that Henri named his nephew Duc de Chartres, etc. By which right? It means nothing, just theatre.
Theatre perhaps but it is also a tradition that dates back more than a 1000 years. The founder of the dynasty was Count of Paris, his father Hugh the Great was duke of France & count of Paris. For the house of Capet these titles predate the later titles that were used by the various Capet branches. So there is some logic in choosing these titles for the head of the maison de France.

Note that the former Grand Duke of Baden reverted to using the title Margrave, the Kings of Saxony used their oldest title of Margrave of Meissen, the Kings of Wurttemberg and Bavaria are now using the title of 'duke' etc.


As for the pseudo-legitimist line handing out titles: I agree with you there.
__________________
TRF Rules and FAQ
Reply With Quote
  #71  
Old 01-23-2019, 05:16 PM
HereditaryPrincess's Avatar
Heir Apparent
Royal Blogger
 
Join Date: Oct 2012
Location: London, United Kingdom
Posts: 12,202
Quote:
Originally Posted by eya View Post
Official release from Prince Jean

"The funeral of Monsignor the Count of Paris will be celebrated on Saturday, February 2, 2019 at 3 pm, in the royal chapel Saint-Louis de Dreux.

An ardent chapel will be opened in the Royal Chapel, from Wednesday, January 30 to Friday, February 1 from 1 pm to 5 pm. "

"« Les obsèques de Monseigneur le comte de Paris seront célébrées le samedi 2 février 2019 à 15 heures, en la chapelle royale Saint-Louis de Dreux.

Une chapelle ardente sera ouverte à la chapelle royale, du mercredi 30 janvier au vendredi 1er février de 13 heures à 17 heures. »"
Thank you eya.
I presume we'll get a good turnout from the non-reigning royal families of Europe though I should also suspect the Liechtenstein and Luxembourgish families out of the reigning royals will also be there, and maybe some of the Belgian royals? IIRC Princess Astrid is godmother to Prince Jean's son Gaston.
__________________
"For beautiful eyes, look for the good in others; for beautiful lips, speak only words of kindness; and for poise, walk with the knowledge that you are never alone". Audrey Hepburn

*
"Think of all the beauty still left around you and be happy". Anne Frank
Reply With Quote
  #72  
Old 01-23-2019, 05:40 PM
Al_bina's Avatar
Majesty
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: City, Kazakhstan
Posts: 8,064
Quote:
Originally Posted by JR76 View Post
As Head of the House, Prince Jean decides over the titles of the family. The French government has no say in all of this and French courts have ruled that they have no jurisdiction in these matters.
Thanks for the clarification!
Based on Duc-et_Pair's posts, one hopes that Prince Jean will put the title situation in order.
__________________
"I never did mind about the little things"
Amanda, "Point of No Return"
Reply With Quote
  #73  
Old 01-23-2019, 06:15 PM
An Ard Ri's Avatar
Super Moderator
Royal Blogger
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: An Iarmhí, Ireland
Posts: 25,480
Quote:
Originally Posted by HereditaryPrincess View Post
I presume we'll get a good turnout from the non-reigning royal families of Europe though I should also suspect the Liechtenstein and Luxembourgish families out of the reigning royals will also be there, and maybe some of the Belgian royals? IIRC Princess Astrid is godmother to Prince Jean's son Gaston.
Its hard to tell but I recall that Queen Fabiola,the Empress Farah ,Prince Albert of Monaco,the Infanta Pilar of Spain and Anne ,Duchess of Calabria attended his mothers funeral in 2003.

https://www.gettyimages.ie/detail/ne...hoto/113943028

https://www.gettyimages.ie/detail/ne...hoto/113943343

https://www.gettyimages.ie/detail/ne...hoto/113942960
__________________

21st of February 1575,Death of Claude de France,Duchess of Lorraine.
Reply With Quote
  #74  
Old 01-23-2019, 06:29 PM
Nico's Avatar
Heir Presumptive
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Paris, France
Posts: 2,575
Quote:
Originally Posted by An Ard Ri View Post
Its hard to tell but I recall that Queen Fabiola,the Empress Farah ,Prince Albert of Monaco,the Infanta Pilar of Spain and Anne ,Duchess of Calabria attended his mothers funeral in 2003.

https://www.gettyimages.ie/detail/ne...hoto/113943028

https://www.gettyimages.ie/detail/ne...hoto/113943343

https://www.gettyimages.ie/detail/ne...hoto/113942960
Madame was from another scale, she was a widely respected figure from a bygone area.
I might be wrong but his son didn't inspire the same respect ...
Reply With Quote
  #75  
Old 01-23-2019, 06:32 PM
An Ard Ri's Avatar
Super Moderator
Royal Blogger
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: An Iarmhí, Ireland
Posts: 25,480
That's very,very true
__________________

21st of February 1575,Death of Claude de France,Duchess of Lorraine.
Reply With Quote
  #76  
Old 01-23-2019, 06:56 PM
Duc_et_Pair's Avatar
Majesty
 
Join Date: Mar 2014
Location: City, Netherlands
Posts: 9,931
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nico View Post
Madame was from another scale, she was a widely respected figure from a bygone area.
I might be wrong but his son didn't inspire the same respect ...
That may be true, but the late Prince Henri was head of one of Europe's grandest Houses. The new Chef seems to have a good rapport, so I think it will be a solemn royal funeral befitting the dignity and status of the House.
Reply With Quote
  #77  
Old 01-23-2019, 07:44 PM
Moonmaiden23's Avatar
Majesty
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Los Angeles, United States
Posts: 9,557
The French Royal House sent representatives to the wedding of Prince Albert of Monaco in 2011(the late Prince Henri) and IIRC also to the wedding of Guillaume and Stephanie in Luxembourg in 2012(Prince Jean and his wife)

I imagine that Monaco and Luxembourg will at least return the courtesy.

I remember reading in Point de Vue that the late Queen Fabiola was close with the Duchess of Montpensier-Henri's first wife, but rather cool towards Henri's second wife Micaela.: Sad:
__________________
"Be who God intended you to be, and you will set the world on fire" St. Catherine of Siena

"The arc of the moral universe is long, but it bends toward justice". Martin Luther King Jr. 1929-1968
Reply With Quote
  #78  
Old 01-23-2019, 09:16 PM
Countessmeout's Avatar
Imperial Majesty
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Location: alberta, Canada
Posts: 11,135
Quote:
Originally Posted by Duc_et_Pair View Post
I find it a bit a vaudeville. Okay when the head holds the traditional title (Duc de Parme, Duc de Calabrie, Duc d'Orléans, etc.) but that Luis Alfonso names his son Duc de Berry, that Henri named his nephew Duc de Chartres, etc. By which right? It means nothing, just theatre.
Henri didn't bestow the title Duc de Chartres on his nephew. The current holder is his cousin not his nephew. Charles-Louis, Duc of Chartres is the son of Henri's Uncle Jacques. And it makes sense that he bestowed that title on his nephew, as it is traditionally held by the Duke of Orleans' eldest son.

You were all for Jean being Duc of Orleans and his son being Duc of Chartres. How is that any different?
Reply With Quote
  #79  
Old 01-24-2019, 03:54 AM
Marengo's Avatar
Administrator
Royal Blogger, TRF Author
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Brussels, Belgium
Posts: 21,247
Quote:
Originally Posted by Moonmaiden23 View Post
The French Royal House sent representatives to the wedding of Prince Albert of Monaco in 2011(the late Prince Henri) and IIRC also to the wedding of Guillaume and Stephanie in Luxembourg in 2012(Prince Jean and his wife)

I imagine that Monaco and Luxembourg will at least return the courtesy.

I remember reading in Point de Vue that the late Queen Fabiola was close with the Duchess of Montpensier-Henri's first wife, but rather cool towards Henri's second wife Micaela.: Sad:
I believe that Monsieur and Madame (for me that still refers to the count of Paris -father- and Pss Isabelle of Orleans-Bragança) befriended King Leopold III and Queen Astrid. They were close enough to ask them as godparents for their second daughter Helene. IIRC they were mentioned by Css Anna Sparre in her memoires about her friend Q. Astrid. From what I remember from a biography of Leopold III the couples socialized privately, for picknicks and such. The count and countess of Paris lived near Brussels of course, where their son Henri was born in the Manoir d'Anjou.

Q. Fabiola must have been close to more members of the Orleans family as we saw several of them at her funeral, among them Pss Helene, Css of Limburg-Stirum and Pss Clothilde, Mrs. Crépy.

I do not recall the Duchess of Montpensier at any royal events in Belgium but both the Duke of Vendôme as the duke of Angoulême & wife attended the wedding of the duke of Brabant in 1999.
__________________
TRF Rules and FAQ
Reply With Quote
  #80  
Old 01-24-2019, 04:23 AM
Stefan's Avatar
Super Moderator
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: Esslingen, Germany
Posts: 4,835
Quote:
Originally Posted by Moonmaiden23 View Post
The French Royal House sent representatives to the wedding of Prince Albert of Monaco in 2011(the late Prince Henri) and IIRC also to the wedding of Guillaume and Stephanie in Luxembourg in 2012(Prince Jean and his wife)

I imagine that Monaco and Luxembourg will at least return the courtesy.

The now late Count of Paris and his wife attended both the funeral of Prince Rainier and the Wedding of Prince Albert and Charlene themself so it would seem to be likely that somene from Monaco attends. This was one of the rare occasions when the late Count himself attended an Event in a reignng House can't think of others.
__________________

__________________
Stefan



Reply With Quote
Reply


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Henri, Comte de Paris (1933-2019), Head of the Royal House of France, wives & family Idriel Royal Families of France 194 06-06-2019 11:48 AM
Henri of France, Count of Paris & Isabelle d'Orleans-Bragança (Brazil) 08-04-1931 Jason R Maier esq Historical Royal Weddings 18 10-12-2016 11:47 PM
Henri, Count of Paris, Head of the Royal House of France (1908-1999) Marengo Royal Families of France 27 07-27-2014 11:38 PM
Death & Funeral of Count Patrick d'Udekem d'Acoz, Father of Mathilde; Sept. 2008 stephanievl King Philippe, Queen Mathilde and Family 107 11-04-2009 12:33 PM
Bahrain: Death of HRH Prince Faisal, son of King Hamad - January 12, 2006 fanletizia Royal and Ruling Families of the Gulf States 17 01-15-2006 01:02 PM




Popular Tags
althorp archie mountbatten-windsor aristocracy bangladesh belgian royal family birthday celebration charles of wales chittagong crown prince hussein's future wife crusades current events cypher danish royalty denmark diana princess of wales duchess of sussex duke & duchess of cambridge; duke of sussex dutch royal family family search felipe vi foundation french royalty future general news germany haakon vii hamdan bin mohammed hill history israel jerusalem jumma king salman lithuanian palaces meghan markle memoir mohammed vi monaco history monarchism mountbatten netflix norway history official visit pakistan prince charles prince daniel prince harry princess margaret pronunciation qe2 queen maud rown royal children royal tour russian imperial family saudi arabia spain spanish history spencer family state visit state visit to denmark sweden swedish royalty thai royal family tracts trump united kingdom visit from sweden working royals; full-time royals; part-time royals;


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 07:11 PM.

Social Knowledge Networks

eXTReMe Tracker
Powered by vBulletin
Copyright ©2000 - 2020
Jelsoft Enterprises
×