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01-23-2019, 01:36 PM
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Imperial Majesty
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Join Date: Mar 2014
Location: City, Netherlands
Posts: 10,660
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Quote:
Originally Posted by maria-olivia
Please , remain on topic.
Jean will remain Duke de Vendome yet.
He does not want to be Comte de Paris now because we will have 2 Comtesses de Paris.
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Micaela has an own title: madame la princesse de Joinville. But I hope Jean forgets that "Comte de Paris/Duc de France" theatre anyway. S.A.R. le prince Jean de France. Perfect. Simple. Transparent.
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01-23-2019, 01:45 PM
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Gentry
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Join Date: Dec 2018
Location: Durham, United States
Posts: 96
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tatiana Maria
Many territorial names did become family names over the course of time
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Yes, that is more typical: a territory name like Bourbon / Orléans morphs into a family name. Less typical is the opposite: a territory whose name comes from a family name (Principality of Liechtenstein).
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01-23-2019, 02:04 PM
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Majesty
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Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: City, Kazakhstan
Posts: 8,013
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Duc_et_Pair
Micaela has an own title: madame la princesse de Joinville. But I hope Jean forgets that "Comte de Paris/Duc de France" theatre anyway. S.A.R. le prince Jean de France. Perfect. Simple. Transparent.
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Could Prince Jean change his own title? Who regulates the process of bestowing a title? Does the French government have a say in the process?
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01-23-2019, 02:40 PM
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Heir Apparent
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Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: Malmö, Sweden
Posts: 3,231
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Al_bina
Could Prince Jean change his own title? Who regulates the process of bestowing a title? Does the French government have a say in the process?
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As Head of the House, Prince Jean decides over the titles of the family. The French government has no say in all of this and French courts have ruled that they have no jurisdiction in these matters.
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01-23-2019, 03:39 PM
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Imperial Majesty
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Join Date: Mar 2014
Location: City, Netherlands
Posts: 10,660
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JR76
As Head of the House, Prince Jean decides over the titles of the family. The French government has no say in all of this and French courts have ruled that they have no jurisdiction in these matters.
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I find it a bit a vaudeville. Okay when the head holds the traditional title (Duc de Parme, Duc de Calabrie, Duc d'Orléans, etc.) but that Luis Alfonso names his son Duc de Berry, that Henri named his nephew Duc de Chartres, etc. By which right? It means nothing, just theatre.
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01-23-2019, 03:47 PM
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Imperial Majesty
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Join Date: Apr 2015
Location: -, Greece
Posts: 18,513
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Official release from Prince Jean
"The funeral of Monsignor the Count of Paris will be celebrated on Saturday, February 2, 2019 at 3 pm, in the royal chapel Saint-Louis de Dreux.
An ardent chapel will be opened in the Royal Chapel, from Wednesday, January 30 to Friday, February 1 from 1 pm to 5 pm. "
"« Les obsèques de Monseigneur le comte de Paris seront célébrées le samedi 2 février 2019 à 15 heures, en la chapelle royale Saint-Louis de Dreux.
Une chapelle ardente sera ouverte à la chapelle royale, du mercredi 30 janvier au vendredi 1er février de 13 heures à 17 heures. »"
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01-23-2019, 03:58 PM
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Imperial Majesty
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Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Los Angeles, United States
Posts: 10,204
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 Thank you eya.
But why are they holding the late Comte's obsequies almost two weeks after the date of his passing?
Is there an official cause of death...a stroke, a heart attack?
I don't know the laws in France, but here in the US an autopsy might be mandated for a sudden death if there was no previous illness or accident even if the decedent was of an advanced age like HRH.
I suppose in the final analysis it's not important. He is gone, and his family might want to leave it at that.
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"Be who God intended you to be, and you will set the world on fire" St. Catherine of Siena
"The arc of the moral universe is long, but it bends toward justice". Martin Luther King Jr. 1929-1968
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01-23-2019, 03:58 PM
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Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: An Iarmhí, Ireland
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I hadn't realized how many burials there were at the Chapelle Royale Saint-Louis de Dreux its like a mini unspoiled St Denis.
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01-23-2019, 04:24 PM
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Location: Brussels, Belgium
Posts: 22,141
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Duc_et_Pair
I find it a bit a vaudeville. Okay when the head holds the traditional title (Duc de Parme, Duc de Calabrie, Duc d'Orléans, etc.) but that Luis Alfonso names his son Duc de Berry, that Henri named his nephew Duc de Chartres, etc. By which right? It means nothing, just theatre.
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Theatre perhaps but it is also a tradition that dates back more than a 1000 years. The founder of the dynasty was Count of Paris, his father Hugh the Great was duke of France & count of Paris. For the house of Capet these titles predate the later titles that were used by the various Capet branches. So there is some logic in choosing these titles for the head of the maison de France.
Note that the former Grand Duke of Baden reverted to using the title Margrave, the Kings of Saxony used their oldest title of Margrave of Meissen, the Kings of Wurttemberg and Bavaria are now using the title of 'duke' etc.
As for the pseudo-legitimist line handing out titles: I agree with you there.
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01-23-2019, 05:16 PM
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Join Date: Oct 2012
Location: London, United Kingdom
Posts: 13,766
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Quote:
Originally Posted by eya
Official release from Prince Jean
"The funeral of Monsignor the Count of Paris will be celebrated on Saturday, February 2, 2019 at 3 pm, in the royal chapel Saint-Louis de Dreux.
An ardent chapel will be opened in the Royal Chapel, from Wednesday, January 30 to Friday, February 1 from 1 pm to 5 pm. "
"« Les obsèques de Monseigneur le comte de Paris seront célébrées le samedi 2 février 2019 à 15 heures, en la chapelle royale Saint-Louis de Dreux.
Une chapelle ardente sera ouverte à la chapelle royale, du mercredi 30 janvier au vendredi 1er février de 13 heures à 17 heures. »"
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Thank you eya.
I presume we'll get a good turnout from the non-reigning royal families of Europe though I should also suspect the Liechtenstein and Luxembourgish families out of the reigning royals will also be there, and maybe some of the Belgian royals? IIRC Princess Astrid is godmother to Prince Jean's son Gaston.
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01-23-2019, 05:40 PM
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Majesty
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Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: City, Kazakhstan
Posts: 8,013
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JR76
As Head of the House, Prince Jean decides over the titles of the family. The French government has no say in all of this and French courts have ruled that they have no jurisdiction in these matters.
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Thanks for the clarification!
Based on Duc-et_Pair's posts, one hopes that Prince Jean will put the title situation in order.
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01-23-2019, 06:29 PM
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Heir Presumptive
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Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Paris, France
Posts: 2,735
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Quote:
Originally Posted by An Ard Ri
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Madame was from another scale, she was a widely respected figure from a bygone area.
I might be wrong but his son didn't inspire the same respect ...
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01-23-2019, 06:32 PM
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Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: An Iarmhí, Ireland
Posts: 28,955
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That's very,very true
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01-23-2019, 06:56 PM
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Imperial Majesty
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Join Date: Mar 2014
Location: City, Netherlands
Posts: 10,660
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nico
Madame was from another scale, she was a widely respected figure from a bygone area.
I might be wrong but his son didn't inspire the same respect ...
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That may be true, but the late Prince Henri was head of one of Europe's grandest Houses. The new Chef seems to have a good rapport, so I think it will be a solemn royal funeral befitting the dignity and status of the House.
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01-23-2019, 07:44 PM
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Imperial Majesty
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Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Los Angeles, United States
Posts: 10,204
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The French Royal House sent representatives to the wedding of Prince Albert of Monaco in 2011(the late Prince Henri) and IIRC also to the wedding of Guillaume and Stephanie in Luxembourg in 2012(Prince Jean and his wife)
I imagine that Monaco and Luxembourg will at least return the courtesy.
I remember reading in Point de Vue that the late Queen Fabiola was close with the Duchess of Montpensier-Henri's first wife, but rather cool towards Henri's second wife Micaela.: Sad:
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"Be who God intended you to be, and you will set the world on fire" St. Catherine of Siena
"The arc of the moral universe is long, but it bends toward justice". Martin Luther King Jr. 1929-1968
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01-23-2019, 09:16 PM
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Imperial Majesty
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Join Date: Sep 2011
Location: alberta, Canada
Posts: 12,532
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Duc_et_Pair
I find it a bit a vaudeville. Okay when the head holds the traditional title (Duc de Parme, Duc de Calabrie, Duc d'Orléans, etc.) but that Luis Alfonso names his son Duc de Berry, that Henri named his nephew Duc de Chartres, etc. By which right? It means nothing, just theatre.
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Henri didn't bestow the title Duc de Chartres on his nephew. The current holder is his cousin not his nephew. Charles-Louis, Duc of Chartres is the son of Henri's Uncle Jacques. And it makes sense that he bestowed that title on his nephew, as it is traditionally held by the Duke of Orleans' eldest son.
You were all for Jean being Duc of Orleans and his son being Duc of Chartres. How is that any different?
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01-24-2019, 03:54 AM
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Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Brussels, Belgium
Posts: 22,141
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Moonmaiden23
The French Royal House sent representatives to the wedding of Prince Albert of Monaco in 2011(the late Prince Henri) and IIRC also to the wedding of Guillaume and Stephanie in Luxembourg in 2012(Prince Jean and his wife)
I imagine that Monaco and Luxembourg will at least return the courtesy.
I remember reading in Point de Vue that the late Queen Fabiola was close with the Duchess of Montpensier-Henri's first wife, but rather cool towards Henri's second wife Micaela.: Sad:
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I believe that Monsieur and Madame (for me that still refers to the count of Paris -father- and Pss Isabelle of Orleans-Bragança) befriended King Leopold III and Queen Astrid. They were close enough to ask them as godparents for their second daughter Helene. IIRC they were mentioned by Css Anna Sparre in her memoires about her friend Q. Astrid. From what I remember from a biography of Leopold III the couples socialized privately, for picknicks and such. The count and countess of Paris lived near Brussels of course, where their son Henri was born in the Manoir d'Anjou.
Q. Fabiola must have been close to more members of the Orleans family as we saw several of them at her funeral, among them Pss Helene, Css of Limburg-Stirum and Pss Clothilde, Mrs. Crépy.
I do not recall the Duchess of Montpensier at any royal events in Belgium but both the Duke of Vendôme as the duke of Angoulême & wife attended the wedding of the duke of Brabant in 1999.
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01-24-2019, 04:23 AM
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Super Moderator
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Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: Esslingen, Germany
Posts: 5,095
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Moonmaiden23
The French Royal House sent representatives to the wedding of Prince Albert of Monaco in 2011(the late Prince Henri) and IIRC also to the wedding of Guillaume and Stephanie in Luxembourg in 2012(Prince Jean and his wife)
I imagine that Monaco and Luxembourg will at least return the courtesy.
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The now late Count of Paris and his wife attended both the funeral of Prince Rainier and the Wedding of Prince Albert and Charlene themself so it would seem to be likely that somene from Monaco attends. This was one of the rare occasions when the late Count himself attended an Event in a reignng House can't think of others.
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01-24-2019, 07:33 AM
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Majesty
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Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Brussels, Belgium
Posts: 6,224
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I think the Necropole of Dreux is not ready. Next to the Comte et Comtesse de Paris are their Son François and their Grand Son François. Their Son Thibaut and Louis Philippe are not burried at a main place..
Will Henri be burried with his Son François ? Will ne be next to Thibaut . Will Miceala be burried with him?? That all is to be decided by Jean Duke de Vendome.
I don't know how is the necropole ?. In Laeken it is for 2 persons and only Leopold III is with his 2 wifes. 3 coffins were nor planned and they had to work for..
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