Death & Funeral of Prince Henri, Count of Paris - 21 Jan. / 2 Feb. 2019

[Tatiana Maria]

Originally Posted by Kataryn

IMHO people who know about the thre different pretenders to the French throne and where their claim comes from know about the Orléans being a Capeting branch as were the Valois and the main-line Bourbon.



It is after all just a chance name going back to the first of this line's possession and title and is not really a "family name". Just like Schlewsig-Holstein-Sonderburg-Glücksburg is the territorial title of a junior branch of the family which ruled Oldenburg in their main line and not a "family name". Or like the Holstein-Gottorp was the territorial title of the duke (again of a junior branch of the family whose main line ruled Oldenburg) who married Anna Romanova of Russia, their son founded the dynasty of "Romanov-Gottorp". A lot of those ancient European nobles simply don't have a family name but go by the territorial title of the male who founded their branch.



As the Orléans are all from the Royal branch Philippe de Orléans founded, they should go with tradition and be proud of being the House of Orléans. As I said: IMHO.

In the context of French naming conventions, I completely agree that "Orléans" is more conforming to tradition than a name change to "Bourbon" would be.

Indeed, it is perfectly traditional for European nobility to derive their family names from the territories they possess. (The Romanoffs are included among the exceptions; their family name is a patronym, and while they added the titles of the Holstein-Gottorp duchy after the two families were linked by marriage, the family name Romanoff remained the same.) Many territorial names did become family names over the course of time; for example, neither the Orléans nor the Bourbon families currently possess the territories of Orléans or Bourbon, but the names continue to be passed down through the family.

[Duc_et_Pair]

Originally Posted by maria-olivia

Please , remain on topic.
Jean will remain Duke de Vendome yet.
He does not want to be Comte de Paris now because we will have 2 Comtesses de Paris.

Micaela has an own title: madame la princesse de Joinville. But I hope Jean forgets that "Comte de Paris/Duc de France" theatre anyway. S.A.R. le prince Jean de France. Perfect. Simple. Transparent.

[Addapalla]

Originally Posted by Tatiana Maria

Many territorial names did become family names over the course of time

Yes, that is more typical: a territory name like Bourbon / Orléans morphs into a family name. Less typical is the opposite: a territory whose name comes from a family name (Principality of Liechtenstein).

[Al_bina]

Originally Posted by Duc_et_Pair

Micaela has an own title: madame la princesse de Joinville. But I hope Jean forgets that "Comte de Paris/Duc de France" theatre anyway. S.A.R. le prince Jean de France. Perfect. Simple. Transparent.

Could Prince Jean change his own title? Who regulates the process of bestowing a title? Does the French government have a say in the process?

[JR76]

Originally Posted by Al_bina

Could Prince Jean change his own title? Who regulates the process of bestowing a title? Does the French government have a say in the process?

As Head of the House, Prince Jean decides over the titles of the family. The French government has no say in all of this and French courts have ruled that they have no jurisdiction in these matters.

[Duc_et_Pair]

Originally Posted by JR76

As Head of the House, Prince Jean decides over the titles of the family. The French government has no say in all of this and French courts have ruled that they have no jurisdiction in these matters.

I find it a bit a vaudeville. Okay when the head holds the traditional title (Duc de Parme, Duc de Calabrie, Duc d'Orléans, etc.) but that Luis Alfonso names his son Duc de Berry, that Henri named his nephew Duc de Chartres, etc. By which right? It means nothing, just theatre.

[eya]

Official release from Prince Jean

"The funeral of Monsignor the Count of Paris will be celebrated on Saturday, February 2, 2019 at 3 pm, in the royal chapel Saint-Louis de Dreux.

An ardent chapel will be opened in the Royal Chapel, from Wednesday, January 30 to Friday, February 1 from 1 pm to 5 pm. "

"« Les obsèques de Monseigneur le comte de Paris seront célébrées le samedi 2 février 2019 à 15 heures, en la chapelle royale Saint-Louis de Dreux.

Une chapelle ardente sera ouverte à la chapelle royale, du mercredi 30 janvier au vendredi 1er février de 13 heures à 17 heures. »"

[Moonmaiden23]

Thank you eya.

But why are they holding the late Comte's obsequies almost two weeks after the date of his passing?

Is there an official cause of death...a stroke, a heart attack?

I don't know the laws in France, but here in the US an autopsy might be mandated for a sudden death if there was no previous illness or accident even if the decedent was of an advanced age like HRH.

I suppose in the final analysis it's not important. He is gone, and his family might want to leave it at that.

[An Ard Ri]

I hadn't realized how many burials there were at the Chapelle Royale Saint-Louis de Dreux its like a mini unspoiled St Denis.

[Marengo]

Originally Posted by Duc_et_Pair

I find it a bit a vaudeville. Okay when the head holds the traditional title (Duc de Parme, Duc de Calabrie, Duc d'Orléans, etc.) but that Luis Alfonso names his son Duc de Berry, that Henri named his nephew Duc de Chartres, etc. By which right? It means nothing, just theatre.

Theatre perhaps but it is also a tradition that dates back more than a 1000 years. The founder of the dynasty was Count of Paris, his father Hugh the Great was duke of France & count of Paris. For the house of Capet these titles predate the later titles that were used by the various Capet branches. So there is some logic in choosing these titles for the head of the maison de France.

Note that the former Grand Duke of Baden reverted to using the title Margrave, the Kings of Saxony used their oldest title of Margrave of Meissen, the Kings of Wurttemberg and Bavaria are now using the title of 'duke' etc.


As for the pseudo-legitimist line handing out titles: I agree with you there.

[HereditaryPrincess]

Originally Posted by eya

Official release from Prince Jean

"The funeral of Monsignor the Count of Paris will be celebrated on Saturday, February 2, 2019 at 3 pm, in the royal chapel Saint-Louis de Dreux.

An ardent chapel will be opened in the Royal Chapel, from Wednesday, January 30 to Friday, February 1 from 1 pm to 5 pm. "

"« Les obsèques de Monseigneur le comte de Paris seront célébrées le samedi 2 février 2019 à 15 heures, en la chapelle royale Saint-Louis de Dreux.

Une chapelle ardente sera ouverte à la chapelle royale, du mercredi 30 janvier au vendredi 1er février de 13 heures à 17 heures. »"

Thank you eya.
I presume we'll get a good turnout from the non-reigning royal families of Europe though I should also suspect the Liechtenstein and Luxembourgish families out of the reigning royals will also be there, and maybe some of the Belgian royals? IIRC Princess Astrid is godmother to Prince Jean's son Gaston.

[Al_bina]

Originally Posted by JR76

As Head of the House, Prince Jean decides over the titles of the family. The French government has no say in all of this and French courts have ruled that they have no jurisdiction in these matters.

Thanks for the clarification!
Based on Duc-et_Pair's posts, one hopes that Prince Jean will put the title situation in order.

[An Ard Ri]

Originally Posted by HereditaryPrincess

I presume we'll get a good turnout from the non-reigning royal families of Europe though I should also suspect the Liechtenstein and Luxembourgish families out of the reigning royals will also be there, and maybe some of the Belgian royals? IIRC Princess Astrid is godmother to Prince Jean's son Gaston.

Its hard to tell but I recall that Queen Fabiola,the Empress Farah ,Prince Albert of Monaco,the Infanta Pilar of Spain and Anne ,Duchess of Calabria attended his mothers funeral in 2003.

https://www.gettyimages.ie/detail/ne...hoto/113943028

https://www.gettyimages.ie/detail/ne...hoto/113943343

https://www.gettyimages.ie/detail/ne...hoto/113942960

[Nico]

Originally Posted by An Ard Ri

Its hard to tell but I recall that Queen Fabiola,the Empress Farah ,Prince Albert of Monaco,the Infanta Pilar of Spain and Anne ,Duchess of Calabria attended his mothers funeral in 2003.

https://www.gettyimages.ie/detail/ne...hoto/113943028

https://www.gettyimages.ie/detail/ne...hoto/113943343

https://www.gettyimages.ie/detail/ne...hoto/113942960

Madame was from another scale, she was a widely respected figure from a bygone area.
I might be wrong but his son didn't inspire the same respect ...

[An Ard Ri]

That's very,very true

[Duc_et_Pair]

Originally Posted by Nico

Madame was from another scale, she was a widely respected figure from a bygone area.
I might be wrong but his son didn't inspire the same respect ...

That may be true, but the late Prince Henri was head of one of Europe's grandest Houses. The new Chef seems to have a good rapport, so I think it will be a solemn royal funeral befitting the dignity and status of the House.

[Moonmaiden23]

The French Royal House sent representatives to the wedding of Prince Albert of Monaco in 2011(the late Prince Henri) and IIRC also to the wedding of Guillaume and Stephanie in Luxembourg in 2012(Prince Jean and his wife)

I imagine that Monaco and Luxembourg will at least return the courtesy.

I remember reading in Point de Vue that the late Queen Fabiola was close with the Duchess of Montpensier-Henri's first wife, but rather cool towards Henri's second wife Micaela.: Sad:

[Countessmeout]

Originally Posted by Duc_et_Pair

I find it a bit a vaudeville. Okay when the head holds the traditional title (Duc de Parme, Duc de Calabrie, Duc d'Orléans, etc.) but that Luis Alfonso names his son Duc de Berry, that Henri named his nephew Duc de Chartres, etc. By which right? It means nothing, just theatre.

Henri didn't bestow the title Duc de Chartres on his nephew. The current holder is his cousin not his nephew. Charles-Louis, Duc of Chartres is the son of Henri's Uncle Jacques. And it makes sense that he bestowed that title on his nephew, as it is traditionally held by the Duke of Orleans' eldest son.

You were all for Jean being Duc of Orleans and his son being Duc of Chartres. How is that any different?

[Marengo]

Originally Posted by Moonmaiden23

The French Royal House sent representatives to the wedding of Prince Albert of Monaco in 2011(the late Prince Henri) and IIRC also to the wedding of Guillaume and Stephanie in Luxembourg in 2012(Prince Jean and his wife)

I imagine that Monaco and Luxembourg will at least return the courtesy.

I remember reading in Point de Vue that the late Queen Fabiola was close with the Duchess of Montpensier-Henri's first wife, but rather cool towards Henri's second wife Micaela.: Sad:

I believe that Monsieur and Madame (for me that still refers to the count of Paris -father- and Pss Isabelle of Orleans-Bragança) befriended King Leopold III and Queen Astrid. They were close enough to ask them as godparents for their second daughter Helene. IIRC they were mentioned by Css Anna Sparre in her memoires about her friend Q. Astrid. From what I remember from a biography of Leopold III the couples socialized privately, for picknicks and such. The count and countess of Paris lived near Brussels of course, where their son Henri was born in the Manoir d'Anjou.

Q. Fabiola must have been close to more members of the Orleans family as we saw several of them at her funeral, among them Pss Helene, Css of Limburg-Stirum and Pss Clothilde, Mrs. Crépy.

I do not recall the Duchess of Montpensier at any royal events in Belgium but both the Duke of Vendôme as the duke of Angoulême & wife attended the wedding of the duke of Brabant in 1999.

[Stefan]

Originally Posted by Moonmaiden23

The French Royal House sent representatives to the wedding of Prince Albert of Monaco in 2011(the late Prince Henri) and IIRC also to the wedding of Guillaume and Stephanie in Luxembourg in 2012(Prince Jean and his wife)

I imagine that Monaco and Luxembourg will at least return the courtesy.

The now late Count of Paris and his wife attended both the funeral of Prince Rainier and the Wedding of Prince Albert and Charlene themself so it would seem to be likely that somene from Monaco attends. This was one of the rare occasions when the late Count himself attended an Event in a reignng House can't think of others.