Catherine de Medici (1519-1589), Queen Consort of Henri II

[An Ard Ri]

The marriage of Henri,Duke of Orleans and Catherine de Medici took place at the Église Saint-Ferréol les Augustins in Marseille on the 28th of October 1533.

The marriage of Catherine de' Medici | The Florentine

 

[An Ard Ri]

Today ,April 13th marks the 500th anniversary of the birth of Catherine de Médicis in Florence.

https://www.dw.com/cda/en/500th-bir...nd-florences-most-powerful-dynasty/a-48291607

L'Italienne: Catherine de' Medici from Florence to France | The Florentine

 

[KrissyM]

Okay, I admit it, I loath Catherine de Medici and it actually has nothing to do with St. Bartholomew's. It has everything to do with the fact that she offered her son-in-law the option to assassinate her daughter! It has to do with her claiming to love her husband, but not getting rid of her occultists whom despised. It has to do with her "Flying Squadron." It has to do with her playing both sides against each other during the wars of Religion, and that derailed her whole dynasty. It has to do with her earning the reputation she had. I'm not a Queen Elizabeth Fan either, but Catherine was on a whole different level with backstabbing and duplicity.

 

[Alison H]

I feel a bit sorry for her over the whole Diane de Poitiers situation, and I think she was probably very embittered first by that and then by the deaths of her older sons, but she was certainly a nasty piece of work later on.

 

[KrissyM]

I will never condone adultery, but I'm not sorry for her because of Diane. She didn't care about Janet Flemming. She helped de Montmorency set that one up! She cared that Diane had power, not her husband. If Henri ii had lived and Diane had retained control over the Royal Nursery the Valois might still be ruling France today.

 

[An Ard Ri]

I will never condone adultery, but I'm not sorry for her because of Diane. She didn't care about Janet Flemming. She helped de Montmorency set that one up! She cared that Diane had power, not her husband. If Henri ii had lived and Diane had retained control over the Royal Nursery the Valois might still be ruling France today.

I wouldn't be too quick to blame Catherine solely for the demise of the Valois.

Henri II through the ultra Catholic Diane's influence saw savage persecutions of Protestant's. Diane also had her own personal vendetta against Anne de Pisseleu the mistress of Francis I who felt the full wrath of Diane after the death of the old king. Anne was banished had her estates confiscated and was even had the threat of being put on trial for heresy.

Henri's pursuit of futile wars with Charles V left the French kingdom bankrupt on the eve of his death.

Catherine inherited all of those issues along with her sickly Valois children.

 

[KrissyM]

Okay, I'm not saying she is solely responsible for the fall of the Valois dynasty. First, that's overly simplistic. Second, yes, the country was in bad financial shape due to the Italian Wars. Third, the Reformation was causing Havoc everywhere. However consider the following...

1. Francis Ist depleted the Treasury by the time of his death. Henri II, and Diane, got the treasury balanced and solvent to fund the wars to begin with. They could and probably would have gotten the country solvent again.

2. He won back Calais, this is such a major accomplishment that could have been a major boon had he not died in that Jousting accident, and yet he gets no remembrance for driving the English off the continent for good.

3. The prosecution of the Huguenots was atrocious my ancestors were driven out of France. I'm not defending it, however it was a coherent state policy. They didn't make things worse playing one side against the other. If Catherine hadn't been trying to use both sides do destroy each other, then the Valois might have survived at least until the 18th century. Elizabeth ii and Henry viii did much more and worse.

4. Anne de Pisseleu was technically a traitor to the crown. She was also one of the most greedy and treacherous official Mistresses in French history.

5. Anyone willing to murder their own child for political gain can't be trusted. Yeah monarchs have murdered their children before but usually they're justifiably reviled.

6. Her influence on Charles IX speaks for itself.

 

[An Ard Ri]

4. Anne de Pisseleu was technically a traitor to the crown. She was also one of the most greedy and treacherous official Mistresses in French history.

As was Diane de Potiers who did nothing more than enrich herself and her relatives and surrounded Henri II with the ultra Catholic houses of Montmorency and Guise at the expense of the Bourbons Princes of the Blood.

Anne was no better and no worse than Diane.

 

[KrissyM]

How was Diane de Poitiers a traitor to the Crown? Did she try to sell out her country to foreign power? Did she send information to France's enemies to enhance her own power. I don't mind Anne for getting rich off Francis, that's part of being the Official Mistress (with 30 siblings she needed it) I mind treason! The bulk of Diane's wealth was based from lawful inheritance from her father, brother, and husband. Yeah, Henri ii gave her tremendous wealth, but she was one of the best business-person of her age.

 

[An Ard Ri]

What secrets did Anne reveal and was she charged with anything?

I know she was a committed Huguenot and was almost put on trial for heresy but Henri II did not pursue this action out of respect for his late father.

 

[KrissyM]

Hold on, I need to get my research... I have way too much time on my hands...

 

[Moran]

Henry and Diane could have... but did they? Why would you say "they probably would have..." when they clearly didn't? At least, at the moment I can't remember anything pointing at them having done so. He was 40 when he died, she much older. He had been king for years. Just how many more years did he need to start actually getting the country solvent?



What should Catherine have done, let the Guises do as they pleased through young Mary? How long would it have been before her other sons and herself were pushed to the side worse than she was through Diane's time? That's, if they were left alive which in those times was no sure thing.



Catherine's influence on Charles IX was only a reasonable approach and the only one she could take if she had an ounce of common sense. Everyone could influence Charles. He was a weather-vane if there ever was one. The only way to restrain unwanted influence on him was to keep him under her own thumb. Which isn't to say that she didn't *want* to be influential.

 

[An Ard Ri]

Diane was a lady-in-waiting to Queen Claude of France and Anne was a lady in waiting to the king's mother Louise de Savoie and how both women rose to such levels of power and influence.

 

[KrissyM]

I'm not condoning religious slaughter, but other than their fanatical Catholicism (All Catholic Monarchs were theoretically were obligated to eradicate Heresy and follow church law) what was so bad about the Guises?

About Anne, the Treaty of Crespy was heavily endorsed by her, and illegally tried to strip Henri of his right to Milan and pass it to his brother Charles. She supported it to set up Charles of France against Henri with the support of Charles the V. You can look it up in the books, "Henri II the Court and His Time" by H. Noel Williams, "The Serpent and the Moon", by HRH Princess Michael of Kent, and "Francis I The Maker of Modern France." by Leonie Frieda.

Unfortunately for me, I cannot yet afford Robert J. Knecht's books yet, but I'm working on it.

 

[An Ard Ri]

I think Henri II suspected Anne of treason but she was never charged as that would have meant her death. Instead she was disgraced and she lost her title Duchess d'Etampes and several of properties and jewels, most of those jewels went to Diane as did the duchy.

Anne had made many enemies at the French Court.

 

[KrissyM]

She did have a trial.

 

[An Ard Ri]

She was never charged with anything and was sent off in disgrace to Brittany in exile from the French court and she died in 1580.

The disgrace and exile was her punishment.

 

[KrissyM]

Honest question, How can there be a trial without charges?

 

[An Ard Ri]

Honest question, How can there be a trial without charges?

Charges possibly yes but was she charged by the Parlement with treason as that would mean death?

 

[KrissyM]

Yes, Henri ii testified. I need to read more books.

 

[An Ard Ri]

Anne de Pisseleu also had a niece called Anne de Pisseleu who was her brother Adrien daughter and served as a lady in waiting to Queen Catherine.

Anne de Pisseleu | Les Scandaleuses

 

[An Ard Ri]

Yes, Henri ii testified. I need to read more books.

But Anne's life was spared and she was banished not executed for treason.

 

[KrissyM]

Another reason I don't think that Catherine really "loved" Henri. She knew that Anne was her Husband's enemy (not only Diane's) yet she kept in Anne's camp.

 

[An Ard Ri]

Yes, Henri ii testified. I need to read more books.

Page 238 Serpent and the Moon ,the king appeared as a witness at Anne's trial but no mention of treason just Anne being fat and friendless.

 

[Moonmaiden23]

I'm not condoning religious slaughter, but other than their fanatical Catholicism (All Catholic Monarchs were theoretically were obligated to eradicate Heresy and follow church law) what was so bad about the Guises?

About Anne, the Treaty of Crespy was heavily endorsed by her, and illegally tried to strip Henri of his right to Milan and pass it to his brother Charles. She supported it to set up Charles of France against Henri with the support of Charles the V. You can look it up in the books, "Henri II the Court and His Time" by H. Noel Williams, "The Serpent and the Moon", by HRH Princess Michael of Kent, and "Francis I The Maker of Modern France." by Leonie Frieda.

Unfortunately for me, I cannot yet afford Robert J. Knecht's books yet, but I'm working on it.

Speaking of "Serpent and The Moon"..I read it years ago and I had to chuckle when Princess Michael, who authored the book and claims descent from both Diane de Poitiers and Catherine de Medici..went out of her way to downplay her tie to Catherine.

On the other hand Princess Michael was almost effusive in her gushing praise of Diane's beauty, glamour, piety and overall integrity. She professed a deep almost mystical affinity for her ancestress.

She stopped just short of saying she believes herself to be the reincarnation of Diane.

 

[Alison H]

Unfortunately for me, I cannot yet afford Robert J. Knecht's books yet, but I'm working on it.

Robert Knecht was one of my lecturers whilst I was doing my history degree. Unfortunately, ex-students don't get a discount on his books, and I can't afford them either. And I think I annoyed him by preferring the Russian and Austrian elements of the European history modules to the French modules .

 

[KrissyM]

Speaking of "Serpent and The Moon"..I read it years ago and I had to chuckle when Princess Michael, who authored the book and claims descent from both Diane de Poitiers and Catherine de Medici..went out of her way to downplay her tie to Catherine.

On the other hand Princess Michael was almost effusive in her gushing praise of Diane's beauty, glamour, piety and overall integrity. She professed a deep almost mystical affinity for her ancestress.

She stopped just short of saying she believes herself to be the reincarnation of Diane.

The Princess is a complex individual for sure. However her sources and footnotes were excellent. I love the book but for it's subjects not the author. I have tried to read other books but very few are in English and those that are, are $$$

 

[Moonmaiden23]

Yes, I thought "Serpent" was far superior to her 1987 book "From A Far Country".

 

[KrissyM]

Like I said, the sources and footnotes were excellent. However, because I felt it was too biased I also read "The Rival Queens" by Nancy Goldstone and it really didn't improve my impression of Catherine de Medici. It's not about the massacre, it's about the fact that she was willing to do anything, betray anyone, for power. If that wasn't bad enough, it didn't even work!

 

[Moonmaiden23]

Thank you...I have not read "Rival Queens". I have added it to my Must Read list.?