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  #281  
Old 05-05-2019, 11:57 AM
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Out of curiosity what happens to the late Grand Duke Jean's Garter banner now that it has been "retired" from St. George's Chapel, as well as his Order of the Seraphim from Sweden?

Were the Orders entombed with HRH, or simply given to the Grand Ducal family?
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  #282  
Old 05-05-2019, 12:43 PM
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Originally Posted by An Ard Ri View Post
Queen Paola looks very dignified in her black lace mantilla.
Yes she does. The Grand Duchess should have worn one.
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  #283  
Old 05-05-2019, 12:45 PM
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Originally Posted by Frelinghighness View Post
Why was the grand duchess mt hatless?
I wondered that too.
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  #284  
Old 05-05-2019, 12:50 PM
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Originally Posted by Duc_et_Pair View Post
The hostess does not wear a hat in her house. She removed her hat. The other ladies kept it on for the little intermezzo before leaving Luxembourg.

The palace is her house not the Cathedral.
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  #285  
Old 05-05-2019, 12:56 PM
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Originally Posted by Iain View Post
The palace is her house not the Cathedral.
I guess in all the hullabaloo and the stress the Grand-Duchess simply forgot to put a hat on, when she armed her husband and left the palais to join the funeral procession. We are all human.
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  #286  
Old 05-05-2019, 01:16 PM
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Originally Posted by Moonmaiden23 View Post
The late Catholic Queen Fabiola didn't wear hats to Mass, true...but up until the reforms of Vatican II she always without fail had her head covered with a beautiful mantilla at Mass and any other religious ceremony.

I've no idea what happened with Maria Teresa. She looked drawn, tired and sad. Perhaps she was so distracted she simply forgot her head covering.
A friend told me that just last week her parish bulletin carried an item stating that it is still Church law that a man must have his head uncovered and woman must have her head covered in church. It said that this rule was never changed at Vatican II and as it is Biblical teaching it never can be changed.
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  #287  
Old 05-05-2019, 01:17 PM
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Originally Posted by Duc_et_Pair View Post
I guess in all the hullabaloo and the stress the Grand-Duchess simply forgot to put a hat on, when she armed her husband and left the palais to join the funeral procession. We are all human.
She certainly looked very upset.
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  #288  
Old 05-05-2019, 01:22 PM
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Originally Posted by Duc_et_Pair View Post


My take is that the Grand-Duchess saw herself as the hostess. The cortège left the palais grand-ducal and that is her residence. I have no other logic reason. The Grand-Duchess uses to wear hats like Mathilde or Máxima. I thought she wore a little pillbox, but that was her sister-in-law Marie-Astrid, sitting next to her.

It did not disturb me, the Grand-Duchess looked very nicely coiffed. We can not say that about hatless Máxima.

For the fuenral of her moither.in.-law she wore a hat and the the cortege also left from the Grand Ducal Paleis.
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  #289  
Old 05-05-2019, 01:24 PM
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Maybe she was present at her father-in-law's passing.
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  #290  
Old 05-05-2019, 01:36 PM
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Hmm....eternal haggling over poor Maria Teresa's criminal neglect to wear a head covering to her father-in-law's funeral Rites...but not one response to my inquiry about his late Royal Highness's Orders?

For goodness sake. ..the Grand Duchess is normally the most well-mannered and correct of Royal consorts. Perhaps in the high emotion and stress of the day she simply forgot her hat.

Worst case scenario is that she committed a rare faux -pas. Are her family aggrieved? Are the citizens and press of the Grand Duchy grumbling?

I'll just get off my rear and go to Google for an answer to my question. I probably should have done so anyway.
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  #291  
Old 05-05-2019, 02:00 PM
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No one knows and likely we will never know why MT did not wear a hat. She and the Grand Ducal family are highly religious and attend plenty of church services so she won't have purposefully done something to offend the church. In grief people sometimes do odd/out of character things if this is the worst then so be it.

I have always believed the regalia for the order of the Garter are returned to the current UK Sovereign upon a person's death.

The banner - I'm not sure I would guess either kept by the order in some archive or other place or given to the family.

Update - wikipedia (not always the best) says that for the Order of the Garter
"On the death of a member, the Lesser George and breast star are returned personally to the Sovereign by the former member's nearest male relative, and the other insignia to the Central Chancery of the Orders of Knighthood, save the riband, mantle and hat." There are also pictures of deceased Knights banners in locations all over so I would think this suggests the banner is given to the family.

So no that order won't have been buried with him, I imagine similar procedures are in place for other forms of regalia especially when you bear in mind these items (the collars especially) can be worth lots and/or be hundreds of years old.
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  #292  
Old 05-05-2019, 02:06 PM
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A hundred thank you's dear tommy100!
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  #293  
Old 05-05-2019, 03:30 PM
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In the Netherlands any decorations received as part of membership of an order are a loan and need to be returned to the Chancellary upon the death of the holder. I would assume that is the most common practice.

So, in this case I would assume that only member specific items might be given to the family, anything else would be returned for reuse.
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  #294  
Old 05-05-2019, 03:42 PM
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Originally Posted by Hans-Rickard View Post
Yes it's really a rest from a time gone. The last time it happened here in Sweden was for the funeral of Prince Bertil in 1997. And not all women covered their face btw... And it wasn't done at all for the funeral of his wife Princess Lilian in 2013.

Even the UK has modernised that. No one wore a veil for the funeral of The Queen Mother in 2002.

Tears or a sad look are just natural for both men and women at funerals.
The last time the old mourning costume was used in Sweden was at the funeral of King Gustav V. Already at the funerals of Queen Louise, Princess Sibylla and King Gustav VI Adolf the veils had been shortened to shoulder length and the dresses to knees length. Except the short veil and the white pointed collars used by The Queen and Crown Princess Victoria nothing remained of the old mourning costume at the funeral of Prince Bertil.

I remember the Swedish TV commentator mentioning at the funeral of King Baudoin of the Belgians that Queen Fabiola had made her wish known for the guests to not wear an old style mourning garb and for the ladies to not cover their faces.

Another thing worth mentioning is that a long black dress and a hat with veil was used by ladies from most social classes in many places in Europe. My grandmother told me only today that the last time she saw someone in full mourning as she called it in our quiet large Swedish town was in the early eighties.
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  #295  
Old 05-05-2019, 03:44 PM
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Originally Posted by Moonmaiden23 View Post
Out of curiosity what happens to the late Grand Duke Jean's Garter banner now that it has been "retired" from St. George's Chapel, as well as his Order of the Seraphim from Sweden?

Were the Orders entombed with HRH, or simply given to the Grand Ducal family?
If I understood correctly, I think it was said upthread that the Order of Seraphim plaque/shield is moved to a particular church after its “owner’s” death. I haven’t seen anything about the medal itself, though.

I’d be surprised if he were buried with any medals, though. For one thing, I’d think most royal archivists would lobby hard for them to be kept. For another, they specifically made a point of displaying his military and scouting medals during the service, after the coffin had been closed at the palace. If those weren’t interred with him, I doubt others of importance were.
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  #296  
Old 05-05-2019, 03:52 PM
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According to the Royal website Kungahuset.se all insignia belonging to one of the Swedish Royal Orders should be returned upon the death of the knight.
The website even includes instructions on how it should be returned.
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  #297  
Old 05-05-2019, 04:12 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Moonmaiden23 View Post
Out of curiosity what happens to the late Grand Duke Jean's Garter banner now that it has been "retired" from St. George's Chapel, as well as his Order of the Seraphim from Sweden?

Were the Orders entombed with HRH, or simply given to the Grand Ducal family?
The stall plate of Grand Duke Jean's Order of the Seraphim was placed on one the walls in Riddarholmen Church in Stockholm on the occasion of the funeral, as the custom of the order is. The insignia of the orders will most likely be returned to the Grand Masters of the Orders, as they "only" are a life-time loan.
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  #298  
Old 05-05-2019, 04:20 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Moonmaiden23 View Post
Out of curiosity what happens to the late Grand Duke Jean's Garter banner now that it has been "retired" from St. George's Chapel, as well as his Order of the Seraphim from Sweden?

Were the Orders entombed with HRH, or simply given to the Grand Ducal family?
I am not sure of the banner, the star and lesser George are returned to the queen by the nearest male family member. Other insignia, outside the mantle and hat, are returned to the central chancery.

Though it doesn't seem to always be the nearest male. When Gerald Grovesnor died, it was his widow who returned the insignia to the queen. I'd expect Henri will present it to the queen in short period.
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  #299  
Old 05-05-2019, 04:32 PM
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Here's another video of the Funeral Procession before it entered the Cathedral.

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  #300  
Old 05-06-2019, 04:53 AM
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Was that Lady Elizabeth Anson who accompanied the Princess Royal into the funeral service? She seemed rather more frail than I remember.
Any ideas why she would have been there?
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