Succession and Membership Issues

[Next Star]

A woman that head of state of an empire is called a Empress and not Emperor.

 

[Jo of Palatine]

A woman that head of state of an empire is called a Empress and not Emperor.

I would be very careful with such absolutistic statements. We learned here in this forum that the Japanese language doesn't have a word for the female head of state in their empire. They used the male word "Tenno" for their (few) female rulers. Thus, I guess, the correct translation of the word used for a future female ruler of Japan would be "emperor" and not empress, as it signals the meaning of the original word.

Just like in the US, where there is only Mr. President (and in a potential future Mrs. president) but not Mrs. Presidentress.

 

[galuhcandrakirana]

Princess Takamatsu came out publically and stated that she thought Japan should have a female emperor. She stated that in the past Japan had, had female emperors. ( Which is true but they only held the role temporarily until a male sucessor could take over the throne)

Princess Takamatsu was quite elderly and died (2?) years ago. She was the Masako of her generation. In the early 1920's she was sent to the United States and was educated there, much to her displeasure, she was called back to Japan as a marriage had been arranged between her and Emperor Hirohito's youngest brother Prince Takamatsu.( She was the daughter of a Samurai noble so a prime candidate for marriage into the Imperial Family) She didn't want to go back to the rigidity of the Japanese court. But luckily for her Prince Takamatsu was also quite liberal minded and intelligent, both loved jazz music and as both were fluent in English they were sent abroad on various goodwill missions. (There are photos of them the the Japan thread.) The Takamatsu's didn't have children which was not a problem as he was the youngest brother of 4 brothers.

Very interesting, thank you charlotte1 . I think CP Naruhito also a good husband and intelligent like his uncle but the problem is He is the future monarch the his position is more "sensitive" than just the monarch's brother. There are more things to limit what the princely couple can do than what Prince and princess Takamatsu used to have .

I disagree. I think the Japanese people (from what I read) will accept a female on the throne but only if there is no other option. It will be interesting to see what Kiko has and the ripple affect.

I bit lost when you said that you disagree with something but without quoting anything. Did you refered to my posted above? then in which part you disagree. I think I never said that Japanese won't accept female to throne (if that what you reffered to), but more about the chance of an equal opportunity to ascend throne between female and male (without any condition such as "only if there is no male descendant" etc) .

 

[Next Star]

It is must different when comes to royal titles .Okay The Present Emperor's wife such happens to be Empress.Why? cant a female be a heir to the imperial throne and inherit the throne and be named Empress And not Emperor which is a male title.

 

[Charlotte1]

May I correctly:
Prince Takamatsu is not the youngest brother,he is the third brother of Emperor Hirohito.
Emperor Hirohito youngest brother is Prince Mikasa,he still a live is and celebrating this year his 90 year birthday.
They call Prince Mikasa the ("' Red Prince"') because he was not agree with his brother Emperor Hirohito at "Second World War II".

ropura

Oops, thanks for the correction. I had forgotten about Prince Mikasa!

 

[Charlotte1]

Considering the effect this treatment had on her, and considering that the people concerned presumably were aware of what was happening to her and continued to try to force her into the mould of the "ideal" princess regardless and were left with a mentally damaged person as a result, and considering that this is the second time in two generations it's happened, a case could be made for the notion that cruelty was involved at some level, even if it was the cruelty of not seeing the individual behind the position she was occupying.

.

No, again there's a cultural difference here.In western societies the individual is important. ( Think of all those self-help books on focusing on yourself) In English speaking society the individual is so important that the only personal pro-noun with a capital letter is "I". In Japanese society the individual is not important, the collective is. (In speaking Japanese pro-nouns are rarely used.So even in language there's the notion that I, you he she, aren't all that important.) Therefore the traditions and future of the Imperial Family are more important than the individual ( Masako) In everyday life this translates into the company you work for is more important than your family. And this was the basis of Japan's economic miracle. Japanese workers work long hours for their companies, all unpaid overtime. The Japanese language has a word for "death by overwork".

Michiko's situation was totally different to Masako's, Michiko was much more the traditional Japanese woman. Her difficulties didn't stem from the courtiers of the IHA but rather from her inlaws. The Empress Nagako actively campaigned and conspired to stop her marrying Akihito.( Obviously she failed!) Nagako the daughter of a noble wanted her son to marry a noblewomen from one of the disenfranchised noble families. Nagako would publically snub Michiko and was basically the Japanese mother-in-law from hell. The Emperor was no better, he once shouted at Michiko so badly that she lost her voice for an extended period of time.
Michiko and Akihito did have to battle the IHA to be allowed to raise their own children rather than have then brought up by nannies in another part of the palace, like all previous royal children. They were also put under stress as in the 1960's and 70's they had to do many overseas trips ( something Masako wanted and probably thought would happen with her and Naruhito) These trips were stressful as many of the countries they visited had painful memories of Japanese aggression in WW2. Michiko's breakdown was due more to her difficult relationship with her inlaws and stress over her workload of overseas trips as well as domestic workload as crown princess. She didn't have a problem being the traditional Japanese woman walking behind her husband, eyes downcast.

 

[soomi]

CCN had an article about the contrast between CP Masako and Princess Kiko and struggle to adapt to an ancient monarchy. You can find it here: http://www.cnn.com/2006/WORLD/asiapcf/08/16/japan.princesses.reut/index.html

 

[Jo of Palatine]

It is must different when comes to royal titles .Okay The Present Emperor's wife such happens to be Empress.Why? cant a female be a heir to the imperial throne and inherit the throne and be named Empress And not Emperor which is a male title.

If I'm informed correctly the Japanese language has a word for the female consort of the "Tenno" but it's clear that this word for "empress" does indicate that she has no power and only married into the Imperial family.

What I wanted to state originally is that titles often give an indication of what was meant by them in the beginning.

for example: the German word Koenig as well as the English word king derive from Indogerman kon oder konr - which means noble or generous. A king in the Germanic sense was apperently a man from a noble family or "born to be a leader".

While the word regent comes from latin "rex" which meant the one who rules - no matter where he came from. Probably that's why Napoleon decided on the followership of "Caesar" and made himself emperor, not king of France.

You see? We have two meanings here: the Germanic usage relies heavily on family and inherited wight to rule, the latin word is more pragmatic. And it explains why the Germanic "Kaiser" (from the Greek word for "Caesar" Gaius Julius Caesar was the one to change the way of ruling of the Roman empire from elected to inheriting leader) is right in its usage: the Kaiser is the one to actually rule the empire while it consisted of kingdoms with kings who were born to their position.

Or think about "Empress" Maria-Theresia. While she personally was the heir to all the countries the Habsburg-family had ammassed over the centuries, she was no empress in her own right (but queen, eg. of Hungaria or Bohemia), but the empress consort of her husband, who had been elected by the electing princes of Germany to be emperor of the Holy Roman empire of Germany. When her husband died, Maria-Theresia wanted her firstborn son and heir to become the next elected emperor of Germany. But he would not have been elected to this position if he hadn't been a prince in his own right before. Thus, Maria-Theresia created her son her "co-regent" and shared all her titles with him. Thus he was eligible to become emperor and was dutifully elected as Joseph I as the first prince and ruler of all the other princes.

Coming back on topic: as the Japanese tradition has no word for "empress", it gives a very clear insight into the way to view female succession. Even if little Aiko would become the head of state after her father, she would become "Tenno" - emperor, not empress, as this title does not exist. Or they introduce a new word which currently does not exist.

Translation should always try to find suitable words to describe what the original meaning was. Even if it means to be creative with words. Thus, for me, the right translation of "Tenno" would be, when it comes to a potential succession of Princess Aiko, "female emperor".

 

[Jo of Palatine]

Japan is a country where female office staff are known as “office flowers” they’re there to brighten up the place. .

At least that grants a certain amount of jobs for female employees... today you should be thankful even for small advantages...

 

[bbb]

as a westerner, post feminist movement female, i will continue to call the IHA evil and encourage Masako to plead for political asylum. break away, explore the real world of the 21st century.

i thought them all travelling together odd also Eliza, but you're correct clearly it shows a lack of respect.

 

[Zonk]

People can be victimized in different ways. Yes, Michiko was TERRORIZED by her mother in law..and from all appears...that doesn't seem to be the case in Masako's situation. But just because she has a sane mother in law doesn't mean that Masako hasn't been terrorized by the IHA. It seems her fears in marrying into the imperial family were well grounded. Other than the love and support of her husband, and her beautiful daughter she must be kicking herself for not sticking to her guns!

 

[caster51]

at first ,sorry my poor english

as a japanses, I really hope a Female Empeor. that is Aiko.
however I do not agree that next Aiko will be her kids as an Emperor
we should distinguish the famale emperor and the emperor who is in female line
Please imagine......
at least we have a greatest father of ancester in ancient.
me and a greatest father is connecting with one male line from ancient .
if aiko's kids becomes an Emperor, it means a male in line is cut( from amaterasu line is cut) .
aiko's husband in male line will be mainstream.
origin of japanese emperor will change to aiko's hasband in male line
because at least each person have connected with one in male line from ancient.

that is ,japan become a new dynasty of aiko's husband in male line though Imperial household is kept
it ends a dynasty of 2000 years in japan

they have to meet and discuss in their family with including all decendants in male line.

 

[Emily]

From the posts it seems that Masako embodies both the Western and traditional Japanese ways of thinking. She came into the courtship with Naruhito raised with both western cultural practices and traditional Japanese cultural practices. With Naruhito's pledge, and probably Michiko's promises (since apparently Michiko was called in during the courtship to reassure Masako her role wouldn't be that bad) Masako decided to take on the role. Unfortunately Masako was forced to cede more aspects of her person than she had originally thought and she has paid a very heavy price. The two cultures bumped up against each other right in her person. One description of depression is "anger turned inward" and I believe that definition aptly fits what has happened to her as her western ideas clashed with traditional Japanese culture. I wish she would/could leave the system.

 

[Jo of Palatine]

at first ,sorry my poor english

that is ,japan become a new dynasty of aiko's husband in male line though Imperial household is kept
it ends a dynasty of 2000 years in japan

they have to meet and discuss in their family with including all decendants in male line.

Welcome to this list, caster51 and thank you very much for sharing your "Japanese" views on the topic.

Your're right when you say that changing to an empress Aiko would mean that her husband is delivering that precious Y-chromosome. Thus, you could argue and obviously this is the main way to view it in Japan, a new dynasty begins.

Here in Europe we don't subscribe to that view. Eg the fact that the "Habsburgs" of Austria were descended from Rudolf of Habsburg, the founder of the line, through a female heiress, Maria Theresia, and not her husband does not irritate anyone and it didn't irritate back then when the marriage took place.

DNS analysis, AFAIK, can trace paternity, but more distand relationships can only determined via the female line. Thus nature seems to ridicule in a way the Japanese belief in an unbroken paternal line. Espeically as this line came from the unknown husband or lover of a female deity... And who knows which empress cheated on her emperor husband... Happened all the time in Europe's nobility. Heir and spare and then the cuckoo-kids...

And I wonder: how grand is the chance that not only Naruhito and Akihito and their direct cousins are from the direct, 2000 y.o. male line, but half of Japan's high society can trace their forefather's ancestry to one of the emperors of the last 2000 years? Okay, half of Japan's high society is a bit much but I'm convinced traditionalists could come up with more than one candidate for a "suitable" marriage of empress Aiko. In this case the line would be unbroken but still the female as the child of the last emperor would be the head of state.

Would that scenario be more acceptable? I mean even for post feminist women ( ) not any man is acceptable. The fact that you can select your husband all by yourself does not necessarily mean that you select a complete foreigner instead of one of the guys you father or mother favours. Sometimes they have good reasons for their decision and if the guy is nice enough, why not? Not all marriages of love end in everlasting bliss and not all marriages of convenience end up unhappy.

 

[GrandDuchess]

Welcome to the forums caster51, great to see a Japanese giving some insight to this topic!

I guess because the monarchy in Japan is so old and the society in some ways still very conservative, it's a very sensitive topic to imagine that future rulers can come from the female line and end the old dynasty from the male line.

I understand this wievpoint since historically it has always been the male line that has been the most important, and males were the only possible rulers. But for me personally, I think it's quite impossible to remain with these old ideas of males being superior to females.

And we're only talking about blood really, and not matter what you do - it's a fact at least in Europe that the "royal blood" is already thinner, and it will continue to become so even more in the future. But I highly doubt that the dynasites of Europe will change their name just because the line overgoes to the female side.

For example, Crown Princess Victoria of Sweden will give birth to children in the female line and of a non-royal father (most likely as it is now) - but I doubt that they will change the name of the dynasty merely because her husband isn't a royal, those are practices from the old days. The same goes for all future Queens of Europe - Catharina Amalia, Elisabeth and Ingrid Alexandra. We just have to realise that for the most part, the days of royals marrying royals (and thus changing dynaties) are over.

 

[Elspeth]

This focus on the Y chromosome seems to hark back to a prescientific age when heredity was thought to go just through the male line and women were simply incubators of the man's child. These days scientists know that genes are transmitted from both parents; since they've included genetics professors in the panels of experts being consulted about the succession issue, they have to know that imperial chromosomes are transmitted through the mother as well as the father. The way they're now focussing on the Y chromosome seems to be by way of being an excuse. One chromosome by itself isn't much use to anyone.

 

[Next Star]

I know about all royal and noble titles Jo Of Palatine thanks for pointing out again and I feel that members of the Japense royal family should be heirs and the rights should equal. A female heir deserves a female title period.It's true what you said when your were speaking to Caster51 about europe being different with their titles.

 

[Jo of Palatine]

I know about all royal and noble titles Jo Of Palatine thanks for pointing out again and I feel that members of the Japense royal family should be heirs and the rights should equal. A female heir deserves a female title period.It's true what you said when your were speaking to Caster51 about europe being different with their titles.

Ah, I think we had a misunderstanding here and I'm sorry for that. While I was talking about the correct translation of the Japanese word "Tenno" you were arguing the case that a female ruler deserves her own title. Which is a very important addition to this topic, I think and an idea I second wholeheartedly. Of course the Japanese should introduce a title for an empress in her own right, when they are about to change the succession laws.

 

[Next Star]

I uunderstand that the Japense style their female rulers different if that were to happen speaking about titles in europe both Elizabeth II Of Britain and Marageth II Of Denmark were heir-presumptives and inheit the throne all their rights are not all that equal if their fathers had a son they would not be Queens.

 

[caster51]

thank you very much for sharing.
there were 8 or 10 female emperors in japanese history.
so we are familier with female emperor.
however,there was no emperor in female line in the past
some female emperor's great effort in past is not rewarded.
the emperor, that is ,japnese identity....."
there are many former imperial families(miya-ke) whose imperial family register were deprived by GHQ.
It is necessary to revive them as imperial family by the constitution.
(I think it is the best way that aiko marries one of their kids in the future.
who knows?) then they can educate him as a candidacy of emperor officially
If we can not do that, it might be same way of Romanov
700 years ago, It divided into two emperors(south and north Imperial Courts ).
former 5 imperial families are from Northern imperial Courts
Hirohito,aiko... Southern imperial Courts
if aiko marries one of kids of Northern imperial Courts
I think it might be wonderful
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nanboku-cho

 

[galuhcandrakirana]

700 years ago, It divided into two emperors(south and north Imperial Courts ).
former 5 imperial families are from Northern imperial Courts
Hirohito,aiko... Southern imperial Courts
if aiko marries one of kids of Northern imperial Courts
I think it might be wonderful
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nanboku-cho

It is nice to have someone from Japan to share discuss about this Japanese Imperial issue.I understand if Aiko marries a noble man (from male line descendant) then people might not see any problem with their child to ascend the throne in the future. But if she has to marries some one I hope the marriage will bring them a real happiness, not only to produce "a blue blood line" heir (as I understood so far In Japanese culture female can not passes her "blue blood line" to her children if she marries a commoner, correct me if I wrong about it ).

 

[Lillia]

I would be very careful with such absolutistic statements. We learned here in this forum that the Japanese language doesn't have a word for the female head of state in their empire. They used the male word "Tenno" for their (few) female rulers. Thus, I guess, the correct translation of the word used for a future female ruler of Japan would be "emperor" and not empress, as it signals the meaning of the original word.

Just like in the US, where there is only Mr. President (and in a potential future Mrs. president) but not Mrs. Presidentress.

Good points, all of them, but I believe the term would be "Madame President" rather than 'Mrs. President', but maybe it's just a matter of semantics, I don't know.

 

[Jo of Palatine]

Good points, all of them, but I believe the term would be "Madame President" rather than 'Mrs. President', but maybe it's just a matter of semantics, I don't know.

If Mr. stands for Mister/Master, then Mrs. should stand not for Madame but Mistress Presidentress.... LOL. Thank you for your input, Lillia.

 

[Next Star]

If a Japanese Princess marries a commoner she would lose her title and not recieve any financial help from the imperial family. How if she were to marry a noble she would be able to keep her title and stay finanically helped by the imperial family the only way a female would be a heir if the law is changed.

 

[Emily]

Caster 51, welcome and thank you for your input. I have some questions -- do many of your peers talk about the succession issue? Do they support Aiko becoming the female Emperor? Does the younger generation maintain the importance of continuing the tradition of male emperor or is there more support for a female? Also, do many Japanese talk about Masako and what has happened to her? Are they sympathetic to her? What is the perception of Naruhito? How does opinion of Naruhito/Masako compare with Akishino/Kiko? Also, do commoners place more emphasis on their paternal ancestors vs. their maternal?

...as an aside...heartfelt thanks to all. I am immensely enjoying reading these posts and learning and learning. A great discussion!

 

[Avalon]

Caster 51, welcome and thank you for your input. I have some questions -- do many of your peers talk about the succession issue? Do they support Aiko becoming the female Emperor? Does the younger generation maintain the importance of continuing the tradition of male emperor or is there more support for a female? Also, do many Japanese talk about Masako and what has happened to her? Are they sympathetic to her? What is the perception of Naruhito? How does opinion of Naruhito/Masako compare with Akishino/Kiko? Also, do commoners place more emphasis on their paternal ancestors vs. their maternal?

...as an aside...heartfelt thanks to all. I am immensely enjoying reading these posts and learning and learning. A great discussion!

Wow, that's quite a few questions, Emily! :mrgreen:
I must say I would like to know Japanese view on all of these questions, so Caster 51 has better be armed with patience. Naturally, I am most interested especially in the first 2 questions.
And I must admit I learnt a great deal fromthis discussin as well!

 

[Furienna]

This focus on the Y chromosome seems to hark back to a prescientific age when heredity was thought to go just through the male line and women were simply incubators of the man's child. These days scientists know that genes are transmitted from both parents; since they've included genetics professors in the panels of experts being consulted about the succession issue, they have to know that imperial chromosomes are transmitted through the mother as well as the father. The way they're now focussing on the Y chromosome seems to be by way of being an excuse. One chromosome by itself isn't much use to anyone.

The thing is this... A boy inherits his father's Y-chromosome, while both boys and girls inherit an X-chromosome from their mother and a girl would also inherit an X from her father. But a girl inherits her mother's... mitochondry? Sorry, I don't know the English word, but it's something in your cells. You can follow a male's male line back centuries through his X-chromosome, and a female's female line can be followed back centuries through her mitochondry (?). So you can get information about where a man's father's father's father's father came from and where a woman's mother's mother's mother's mother came from. If the imperial line of Japan has been unbroken on the male side for centuries, the emperor and his sons should have the same Y-chromosome as their ancestors who were emperor many centuries ago. So even if you can be right about it going back to the belief of the woman only being a weasel, where the baby grew, this makes scientifical sense. But then, people also always knew, that the mother was important for breeding, way before the discovery of the woman egg. People always knew a child look like its mother or like its father. So people must have though in two different ways. I'm confused now.

 

[caster51]

do many of your peers talk about the succession issue?

Yes ,we do. however many of us dont notice the defference between female emperor and a emperor in female line yet.
The dynasty changes though the meaningless imperial household follows....
this issue will be "it is no use crying over spilt milk"

Do they support Aiko becoming the female Emperor?

I would support her if next aiko is a succession in male line

Does the younger generation maintain the importance of continuing the tradition of male emperor or is there more support for a female?

I dont know.
they will realize that in the future.."it is no use crying over spilt milk"

Also, do many Japanese talk about Masako and what has happened to her? Are they sympathetic to her? What is the perception of Naruhito? How does opinion of Naruhito/Masako compare with Akishino/Kiko? Also, do commoners place more emphasis on their paternal ancestors vs. their maternal?

I dont hope only for Masako's line.
I want a just Succession of male line.
in my opinion, masako is not doing good job yet.
she can not adapt her job yet though she is clever
masako and aiko will have more trouble and pains in the future.

The mass communication desperately substitutes the problem that men and wamen are equal.
it is not a matter which man and women are equal.
it is a matter of concerning with tradition, shinto, history, identity and myth for 2600 years .......

I will be having misgivings about the imperial household's rupture in the
future.
It means the weakening of Japan.
The enemy in Japan is Japanese who is brainwashed by mass media

even Before edo era, Emperor did not have power.
why were many shougun nominated by Emperor.?
shogun was a king
however shogun was also a servant of Emperor nominaly
It is not possible to become a shogun without the emperor's approval like today.
however
for example. Meiji Restoration occurred because there was an emperor.
he has "real power" because He has a powerless.
even after war, if there was no emperor, japan would become like iraq

that is, Japanese origine is Amateras and its male in line,. of course myth is a myth.

If the succession in male line is cut, who believe that myth and who respect the emperor.?

 

[janos614]

The thing is this... A boy inherits his father's Y-chromosome, while both boys and girls inherit an X-chromosome from their mother and a girl would also inherit an X from her father. But a girl inherits her mother's... mitochondry? Sorry, I don't know the English word, but it's something in your cells. You can follow a male's male line back centuries through his X-chromosome, and a female's female line can be followed back centuries through her mitochondry (?). So you can get information about where a man's father's father's father's father came from and where a woman's mother's mother's mother's mother came from. If the imperial line of Japan has been unbroken on the male side for centuries, the emperor and his sons should have the same Y-chromosome as their ancestors who were emperor many centuries ago. So even if you can be right about it going back to the belief of the woman only being a weasel, where the baby grew, this makes scientifical sense. But then, people also always knew, that the mother was important for breeding, way before the discovery of the woman egg. People always knew a child look like its mother or like its father. So people must have though in two different ways. I'm confused now.

Yes, a child has its mother's mitochondrial DNA (and often the mother and child's heartbeats are in sync, because the child was oriented to its mother's biorhythms in the womb). I think a boy or a girl child can be traced to a mother this way. And if a baby is given birth to by a surrogate (i.e. the biological parents' embryo is implanted into another woman), that baby will have traces of the surrogate mother's mitochondrial DNA in addition to that of its biological mother's.

 

[caster51]

I welcome entering of female foreigner's blood into the emperor.
blood has a nothing to do with an Emperor.
because it does not chage a gareatest father of the japanese, that is , Amaterasu.


http://www.isejingu.or.jp/english/index.htm