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  #1361  
Old 10-18-2021, 05:12 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Futurist View Post
Re: A gay Hisahito: He can always try using a male sex doll--or a male sex robot--I suppose!

From day one, as sole Heir to the throne after his father, Hisahito will be imprinted with duty, duty, duty. I suppose.


That is why -even when he is as gay as a horse- he will marry a female partner and father a child, for the sake of the monarchy. After this "duty" he most likely will be relieved from any marital obligation towards his wedded spouse.


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  #1362  
Old 10-18-2021, 05:31 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Duc_et_Pair View Post
From day one, as sole Heir to the throne after his father, Hisahito will be imprinted with duty, duty, duty. I suppose.


That is why -even when he is as gay as a horse- he will marry a female partner and father a child, for the sake of the monarchy. After this "duty" he most likely will be relieved from any marital obligation towards his wedded spouse.


There have been more than one example of the above occurring in Royal Families across the world throughout the times. Ensure the lineage and then do what you like. In the case of Japan, it is ensure some ideology of the next Emperor is of male-line lineage. The problem isn't if Hisahito can bear children, in particular a male heir, but what woman will want to be part of this circus, especially since the IHA cannot hide the psychological abuse Masako and Mako have had to endure being princesses (one marriage; one blood) in the IF.
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  #1363  
Old 10-18-2021, 05:55 AM
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Talking about the future Sex life and orientation of a minor is creepy and inappropriate.
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  #1364  
Old 10-18-2021, 11:14 AM
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I disagree.

Under normal circumstances I would agree with you, but as the current Japanese government seem adamant on dismissing the most obvious solution: Female heirs and spares and the Imperial Family is critically short of male spares, there are a lot of what ifs in regards to Hisahito.

His sexual orientation.
If he is sterile.
His general behavior. - Is he behaving in a manner that is scandalous enough to disqualify him? Will he do drugs?
His physical and mental health. - Will he develop a mental illness?
Whether he is intellectually capable of fulfilling his function.
His attitude towards his future. - Does he even want to be emperor.
His lifestyle. - Dangerous sports.
His associations. - Questionable friends.
And so on...

There are a lot of factors to take into consideration. Each of them have an X amount of probability in regards to Hisahito. And as such something that is valid to take into consideration and discuss.

Had Hisahito had a brother or would the question of female heirs and spares be a non-issue, it would indeed be improper to discuss his sexuality - at present at least.

The suggestion that Emperor Naruhito could have a concubine or two, to produce an heir is IMO also pretty tasteless. But it is an option, if you look at it from a purely reproductive view. To be discussed and IMO rejected.
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  #1365  
Old 10-18-2021, 11:38 AM
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I think when we discuss the position the IF are in we're discussing the situation and it's potential issues rather than the specific sexuality of a teenager as a person, which is none of our business. Just as when the PM made the recent statements about a Dutch royal same sex marriage he didn't mean Amalia specifically, even though all the papers put a picture of her to accompany the articles. Which actually lead to someone who knows I royal watch asking me if she was gay.

In a lot of discussions over the years it seems as though a lot of people agree that it is likely he will be encouraged to marry fairly young and have several children if possible, maybe even be encouraged to make use of gender selection. That's a possibility considering the state of the succession but doesn't take into account anything about him as a person or his potential wife as a person who will no doubt be under enormous pressure. Even under the best circumstances that's a lot to ask of one marriage.

Another would be to have his sisters and cousins in the succession after him but even the idea that they may have the Kojo title after marriage to carry on with imperial duties seems to have been put on a backburner for the moment. Mako's marriage also raises questions about that and puts more pressure on her sister and cousin to marry "perfectly". Those are facts unfortunately.

So for the moment the oldest throne in the world comes down to one teenage boy.
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  #1366  
Old 10-18-2021, 12:22 PM
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I'm playing the pragmatic here.

Don't forget that up to this point, start from emperor Meiji, the male line continuation only depends on 1 prince.

- Despite having a wife and 5 concubines, emperor Meiji only had ONE son who survived past infancy.
- His only adult son, emperor Taisho, managed to fathered 4 sons; the oldest continues to the current line, 2 died childless, and the youngest despite fathering 3 sons but his male line will end with his oldest son.
- Emperor Showa fathered 2 sons, one will likely die childless.
- Emperor Heisei also fathers 2 sons, but by now only one has a son.

Who know if Hisahito will end up like his great-great-grandfather? "Miraculously" fathers half a dozen of sons.

And oh yes, there's the "workload".
Well, many Japanese leave their house for work before sunrise and return late at night, some have to work 7 days a week while living in an 1LDK. So maybe if he seems to have "work" more than his predecessor, he (and the Imperial family) would gain more sympathy from the public instead? (and by "public", I mean Japanese public).

PS: and less IF members means less taxpayer money. There's a reason why in the past the younger sons of emperor were not allowed to marry and were sent to monastery to become a monk instead.
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  #1367  
Old 10-25-2021, 06:22 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Duc_et_Pair View Post
From day one, as sole Heir to the throne after his father, Hisahito will be imprinted with duty, duty, duty. I suppose.


That is why -even when he is as gay as a horse- he will marry a female partner and father a child, for the sake of the monarchy. After this "duty" he most likely will be relieved from any marital obligation towards his wedded spouse.

So, an open (non-monogamous) marriage? Or would that be too scandalous for a Japanese royal? Or can this be done in secret?

Ultimately, though, I suspect that even in such a scenario, one child (or one son) simply won't be enough. The pressure on him will be to have a large family. Think of Philippe I, Duke of Orleans:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Philip...f_Orl%C3%A9ans

He was gay but ultimately ended up having nine children--though a part of this was due to some of his children, especially sons, dying very young in childhood whereas he needed a surviving male heir, which he eventually got. He also slept around with other men on the side, of course.
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  #1368  
Old 10-25-2021, 06:30 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by yukari View Post
I'm playing the pragmatic here.

Don't forget that up to this point, start from emperor Meiji, the male line continuation only depends on 1 prince.

- Despite having a wife and 5 concubines, emperor Meiji only had ONE son who survived past infancy.
- His only adult son, emperor Taisho, managed to fathered 4 sons; the oldest continues to the current line, 2 died childless, and the youngest despite fathering 3 sons but his male line will end with his oldest son.
- Emperor Showa fathered 2 sons, one will likely die childless.
- Emperor Heisei also fathers 2 sons, but by now only one has a son.

Who know if Hisahito will end up like his great-great-grandfather? "Miraculously" fathers half a dozen of sons.

And oh yes, there's the "workload".
Well, many Japanese leave their house for work before sunrise and return late at night, some have to work 7 days a week while living in an 1LDK. So maybe if he seems to have "work" more than his predecessor, he (and the Imperial family) would gain more sympathy from the public instead? (and by "public", I mean Japanese public).

PS: and less IF members means less taxpayer money. There's a reason why in the past the younger sons of emperor were not allowed to marry and were sent to monastery to become a monk instead.
Minor nitpick, but Prince Mikasa actually outlasted all three of his sons, so his male line actually died with himself rather than with any of his sons. It's quite amazing: Two of Prince Mikasa's sons did have children of their own, but only daughters (two daughters and three daughters, respectively).

The Japanese royal family (as in, its male members) had a spell of really bad luck after 1965, having nine daughters in a row (females in italics):

-Naruhito (born 1960, son of Akihito)
-Fumihito (born 1965, son of Akihito)
-Sayako (born 1969, daughter of Akihito)
-Akiko (born 1981, daughter of Tomohito)
-Yoko (born 1983, daughter of Tomohito)
-Tsuguko (born 1986, daughter of Norihito)
-Noriko (born 1988, daughter of Norihito)
-Ayako (born 1990, daughter of Norihito)
-Mako (born 1991, daughter of Fumihito)
-Kako (born 1994, daughter of Fumihito)
-Aiko (born 2001, daughter of Naruhito)

-Hisahito (born 2006, son of Fumihito)

Yep, that's nine daughters in a row, the odds of which occurring was about 1/(2**9) = 1/512 = slightly less than 0.2%.
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  #1369  
Old 10-25-2021, 06:34 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Muhler View Post


I disagree.

Under normal circumstances I would agree with you, but as the current Japanese government seem adamant on dismissing the most obvious solution: Female heirs and spares and the Imperial Family is critically short of male spares, there are a lot of what ifs in regards to Hisahito.

His sexual orientation.
If he is sterile.
His general behavior. - Is he behaving in a manner that is scandalous enough to disqualify him? Will he do drugs?
His physical and mental health. - Will he develop a mental illness?
Whether he is intellectually capable of fulfilling his function.
His attitude towards his future. - Does he even want to be emperor.
His lifestyle. - Dangerous sports.
His associations. - Questionable friends.
And so on...

There are a lot of factors to take into consideration. Each of them have an X amount of probability in regards to Hisahito. And as such something that is valid to take into consideration and discuss.

Had Hisahito had a brother or would the question of female heirs and spares be a non-issue, it would indeed be improper to discuss his sexuality - at present at least.

The suggestion that Emperor Naruhito could have a concubine or two, to produce an heir is IMO also pretty tasteless. But it is an option, if you look at it from a purely reproductive view. To be discussed and IMO rejected.
Seems like having Prince Hitachi adopt a male from the former Japanese royal cadet branches would be MUCH better than the "concubines" option if one wants to keep agnatic male succession intact, no?
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  #1370  
Old 10-26-2021, 08:20 PM
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Does anyone in Japan with the ability to change things ever stop to consider they adopted their ridiculous Salic-style inheritance system as part of modeling themselves on Prussia, a monarchy that lost power more than a century ago?

Some changes would seem to be in order if they want their own to survive.
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  #1371  
Old 10-29-2021, 07:03 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Prinsara View Post
Does anyone in Japan with the ability to change things ever stop to consider they adopted their ridiculous Salic-style inheritance system as part of modeling themselves on Prussia, a monarchy that lost power more than a century ago?

Some changes would seem to be in order if they want their own to survive.
This system could have easily survived had the Japanese cadet branches not been made commoners in 1947.
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  #1372  
Old 11-02-2021, 08:23 PM
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Originally Posted by Biri View Post
Exactly; when Naruhito abdicates/dies, Akishino will probably be already an elderly and fragile man, so he will probably renounce the throne to then still young and healthy Hisahito.
If the age at which they become too fragile to carry out an emperor's obligations is the same for Naruhito and Fumihito, then Fumihito will have a five-year period during which he remains capable.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Somebody View Post
So, imho it will depend on when the throne becomes vacant. If Akishino's in his eighties I see little reason for him to succeed his brother, if however, Hisahito is still in his twenties, it would be more likely that his father is the next emperor and he will follow his father instead of his uncle.
It is a question of a reason to abdicate rather than a reason to succeed. Succession is automatic following the Imperial House Law, whereas abdication would require action from Parliament, as the Imperial House Law does not have provisions for abdication and the law passed to allow the Emperor Emeritus's abdication was a one-off.


Quote:
Originally Posted by yukari View Post
I don’t think he (or the Imperial family in general) would have much say in the adoption. It’s more like about choosing who would be the successor of the Hitachi branch than being the Prince Hitachi's son in traditional (father-son) sense.
All the same, I think many ordinary citizens would resent having a legal son and successor forced on them by the government, though I suppose royals might see it differently.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Prinsara View Post
Does anyone in Japan with the ability to change things ever stop to consider they adopted their ridiculous Salic-style inheritance system as part of modeling themselves on Prussia, a monarchy that lost power more than a century ago?

Some changes would seem to be in order if they want their own to survive.
Most surviving monarchies (as well as most pretenders, including the Prussians) still practice male-only inheritance today.
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  #1373  
Old 11-02-2021, 09:58 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tatiana Maria View Post
If the age at which they become too fragile to carry out an emperor's obligations is the same for Naruhito and Fumihito, then Fumihito will have a five-year period during which he remains capable.
True, however, siblings might vary in their health in older age, so it is unlikely that they will become to frail at exactly the same age. Younger siblings regularly die before older ones as well (see for example princess Beatrix' sister who passed away before her three elder sisters who are still alive).

Quote:
It is a question of a reason to abdicate rather than a reason to succeed. Succession is automatic following the Imperial House Law, whereas abdication would require action from Parliament, as the Imperial House Law does not have provisions for abdication and the law passed to allow the Emperor Emeritus's abdication was a one-off.
Of course that wouldn't be automatic (if both father and son are alive) and provisions would need to be made - which will surely take a few years (just like the more recent abdication) but might be feasible if the current emperor would abdicate as in that case they would have time to arrange not only for his abdication but also to prepare a law that will ensure that Hisahito would be the next emperor (which would require some kind of action on the part of Fumihito.
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  #1374  
Old 11-21-2021, 09:51 AM
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(Move it here since it’s more about membership than Mako).
Quote:
Originally Posted by yukari View Post
(...)

Pre-Meiji, with the exception of Tokugawa clan, I don’t think marriage between princess (especially a naishinnō) and noble were encourage (or ever happened), even if it's the Go-sekke (the five regent houses).

(...)
Okay, I have to make correction here.
From what I’ve read, since the Nara period traditionally (if they’re not becoming monks or nuns) the male members of the Imperial family would take member of Shuga clan or Fujiwara clan (which then later broke down into five clans known as Gosekke; Konoe, Ichijō, Nijō, Kujō, and Takatsukasa) as their official wives/empress consorts, while the female members would marry other princes. It’s mainly because the marriages were more for political purpose than love and in this case, the nobles had more to gain by marrying their daughters to the Imperial family than by taking princesses as their brides (in fact for the nobles, it would be more beneficial for them to take brides from other noble clans or, in later case, daimyos).

This weekend I did some reading and found that during Edo period, there were several Imperial princess (Naishinnō) who married noble men, mainly kampaku (the highest rank noble. But then again, why would an emperor’s daughter married a low ranking courtier, right?). Here’s some of it:
  • Sayako/Kiyoko Naishinnō 清子内親王(1593–1674) >>I’m not sure about her name reading, but eng wiki refer her as Imperial Princess Seishi<<, daughter of Emperor Go-Yozei and Empress (consort) Chūka, married to Takatsukasa Nobuhisa 鷹司 信尚 (1590-1621).
  • Sadako/Teishi Naishinnō 貞子内親王 (1606–1675), daughter of Go-Yozei and Chūka, married to Nijō Yasumichi 二条 康道 (1607 – 1666), he’s a sesshō but he’s a son of Tokugawa Hidetada’s (the 2nd shōgun) adopted daughter. The couple had son Nijō Mitsuhira.
  • Onna-go-no-Miya Yoshiko Naishinnō 女五宮賀子内親王(1632–1696), daughter of Emperor Go-Mizunoo and (Empress consort) Tokugawa Masako (Hidetada’s daughter), married Nijō Mitsuhira 二条 光平 (1624-1682). They had daughter who later married to Tokugawa Tsunashige, son of Tokugawa Iemitsu (the 3rd shōgun) and a daimyo of Kofu domain. Thus they’re first cousins, both were grandchildren of Tokugawa Hidetada and his wife, Gō.
  • Mashiko Naishinnō 益子内親王(1669–1738), daughter of Emperor Go-Sai and a concubine, married to Kujo Sukezane 九条 輔実 (1669–1729). They had three sons and a daughter who later became a legal wife of Tokugawa Yoshimichi, fourth head daimyo of Owari domain.
  • Masako Naishinnō 栄子内親王 (1673–1746), daughter of Emperor Reigen and (Empress consort) Takatsukasa Fusako, married to Nijo Tsunahira 二条 綱平 (1672–1732). Their son was Nijō Yoshitada (who later also become kampaku and one of his daughter became a consort of Emperor Sakuramachi)

The most “interesting” one was the 3 generation of Konoe Nobuhiro’s descendant.
Konoe Nobuhiro was a biological son of Emperor Go-Yōzei and Empress (consort) Chūka (Konoe Sakiko by birth). He was adopted by his maternal uncle, Konoe Nobutada (the kampaku at the time), married his daughter to become his heir and later inherited the position as kampaku himself. So basically Nobuhiro was an Imperial Prince who’d been demoted as noble. For 3 generations later, his descendants would have Imperial Princess as their legal wives, they were:
  • Onna-ni-no-miya 女二宮 (1625-1651) >>in most references, she was referred as the 2nd princess but I found one which mentioned that her name was “Akiko”, while eng wiki refer her as Princess Shoshi<<, daughter of Go-Mizunoo and Tokugawa Masako, to Konoe Hisatsugu 近衛 尚嗣 (1622 – 1653), son of Nobuhiro. Thus they’re first cousins, both were grandchildren of Go-Yōzei and his wife, Chūka.
  • Shina-no-miya Tsuneko Naishinnō 常子内親王 (1642-1702) >>eng wiki refer her as Princess Joshi<<, daughter of Go-Mizunoo with a concubine (Sono Kuniko), married to Konoe Motohiro 近衛 基熈 (1648–1722), son of Hisatsugu with a concubine. The couple had a son, Iehiro, and a daughter, Hiroko (eng wiki refer as Teruko) who was the wife of Tokugawa Ienobu (the 6th shōgun).
  • Onna-ni-no-miya Noriko Naishinnō女一宮憲子内親王 (1669–1688) >>eng wiki refer her as Imperial Princess Ken’shi<<, daughter of Reigen with a concubine, married Konoe Iehiro 近衛 家熈 (1667-1736), son of Motohiro and Tsuneko. Thus, they were first cousin since both were grandchildren of Go-Mizunoo and Sono Kuniko. The couple had sons and daughter who later became wife of Tokugawa Tsugutomo, sixth head daimyo of Owari domain.

(Considering the Konoe male-line was unbroken until 1956 when Konoe Fumitaka died without heir, means since Nobuhiro the Konoe clan was technically a Yamato male line by blood or in other word, a demoted miyake. And for generations, they had “supplied” empress consorts for the Imperial family. The Yamato bloodline must be very thick pre WWII).

From 1655 until his death, Motohiro wrote a diary which known amongst scholar as Motohiro-ki 基熈公記, while his wife, (former Imperial Princess) Tsuneko’s diary is called Mujōhōin-dono gonikki 无上法院殿御日記. In both, it’s described that they lived a life as “noble/aristrocrat” (including enjoying the freedom which royals didn’t have) even though both were royal by blood but they were not considered as member of Imperial family.

And technically, Motohiro’s grandfather, Nobuhiro, was an example of a case of male member of Imperial family losing his imperial status upon marrying a “subject” (Nobutada’s daughter who’s a noble).
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  #1375  
Old 11-21-2021, 10:16 AM
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That's an awful lot of Tokugawa's!

But hardly surprising given the importance of that family. They did after all govern Japan for 250 years. - 300 years of we count the 50 years prior to 1600, where the Tokugawa's enjoyed huge influence.
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  #1376  
Old 11-21-2021, 10:35 AM
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Originally Posted by Muhler View Post
That's an awful lot of Tokugawa's!

But hardly surprising given the importance of that family. They did after all govern Japan for 250 years. - 300 years of we count the 50 years prior to 1600, where the Tokugawa's enjoyed huge influence.
Well, at least it.means they infused "new blood" into the Imperial family after the long intermarriage with the Fujiwara clan.

I post the list of the Tokugawa-IF marriage here. And that's not all, only the main branches and several from collateral branch which I find interesting.
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  #1377  
Old 11-24-2021, 08:41 AM
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Originally Posted by MsJulie View Post
I don’t think Japan will give up the monarchy if there is a male heir. I believe it will be forced into accepting the fact they will have an Empress leading them one day. Some old ways have to change or they monarchy will disappear….I am disappointed that many cannot see that. As the younger generation takes over more, I think there will be a change. MOO.
At the moment I do not recall any polls on female succession which provided a breakdown by age, but they must exist. Would any members be able to answer?


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Originally Posted by Prinsara View Post
It's not related at all, is completely off-topic, and is in-fact offensive. You're talking about a choice for a religion and a people versus a choice for what politicians decide for one family.
I don't think that is an appropriate analysis of Futurist's comment, which first off stated they were not making a direct comparison. Many politicians in both the Japanese and other monarchies are as determined in regard to patrilineal principles for royal families as religious leaders are for members of their religions, whether you (or I) find it offensive or not. Both in Japan and in the West, religious comparisons have been utilized to justify the patrilineal principles in the Japanese and other royal families. If you have read the threads on Japanese imperial succession on this forum, I am sure you will have noticed the arguments about Shinto temples and the Pope. Whether or not those arguments are off-topic, they were not invented by the poster to whom you were responding.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Duc_et_Pair View Post
Was Prince Hisahito not born 15 years ago, we absolutely would have seen Princess Aiko as the Heiress Presumptive after her uncle Prince Akishino. The core existence of the very IHA itself stands of falls with the existence of the monarchy.
But as you know, the IHA (likewise the imperial family) has zero authority over the Imperial House Law, which is a matter for Parliament. Traditionalists advocate for accepting male-line descendants of ancient emperors into the Imperial Family if the current Imperial Family becomes extinct in male line, but I believe that if a son had not been born 15 years ago, Parliament would probably have enacted Prime Minister Koizumi's proposal to make the Imperial House Law gender equal. In that event, Aiko would now be the Crown Princess, and Japan would either have a Prince Kei or, more likely, the future head of the Akishino cadet branch would not have married Kei Komuro.
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  #1378  
Old 12-07-2021, 08:56 AM
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......................
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  #1379  
Old 12-07-2021, 09:00 AM
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Is there any indication of if/when the government committee will publish another update?


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Originally Posted by lucien View Post
Still wish that the IHA will see the light and declares Aiko Heir,as it should be in 2021AD.
Obviously the Imperial Household Agency cannot choose the heir any more than the Dutch Royal Household can choose the heir to the Dutch throne. In 2021 AD Japan is a democracy where the elected members of Parliament hold the power over imperial succession and membership of the imperial house.


And while there are many compelling reasons not to perpetuate gender discrimination, the commonly used argument that "it is 2021" is not creditable because in 2021, gender discrimination remains the norm and not the exception. In regards to succession to thrones, all Asian and African hereditary monarchies, and a third of European hereditary monarchies, either allow only men or prefer men to women in the line to the throne. Even the handful of hereditary monarchies which do not discriminate against women in terms of succession continue to discriminate against women in other matters, such as succession to nobility.

It is quite interesting how the Japanese imperial family is often criticized for supposedly choosing not to allow female succession, even though they exercise zero control over the laws of succession, whereas Prince Albert II of Monaco, who does exercise control over the Monegasque laws of succession and has stated that it was his own choice to maintain male preference, is almost never criticized for not allowing his firstborn daughter Gabriella to inherit the throne.
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  #1380  
Old 12-07-2021, 11:03 AM
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Originally Posted by Tatiana Maria View Post
It is quite interesting how the Japanese imperial family is often criticized for supposedly choosing not to allow female succession, even though they exercise zero control over the laws of succession, whereas Prince Albert II of Monaco, who does exercise control over the Monegasque laws of succession and has stated that it was his own choice to maintain male preference, is almost never criticized for not allowing his firstborn daughter Gabriella to inherit the throne.
It's not especially fair to Gabriella, but at least she is in the line of succession, and her aunt Caroline has played a substantial role in Monaco her entire life, regardless of marital status. The personal choices of Albert allow women far greater roles than the Japanese government currently does.
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