Succession and Membership Issues

[Muhler]

Originally Posted by M. Payton

Does anyone think that the Chrysanterium Throne will eventually die out with no male heirs to be had and only females in the family? I find this a very sad and unbelievable situation that is going on in Japan's royal family for this is not the dark ages here. Are or is everyone so unwilling to do something now before it is to late? Why?

No, before it comes to that, they are more likely to in sheer desperation appoint a new male emperor from a now civilian branch of the family.
Even cloning would probably be something some conservatives will consider seriously!

That will of course lead to a lot of controversy. But the person in question will no doubt try and do his duty. There cannot be a question of refusing to take on this responsibility. That would be un-Japanese so to speak.
But we will have someone who has not been prepared for the job, someone whose family may be anything but keen on suddenly becoming royal.
In other words: We may have a very unhappy imperial family.
An emperor (and his family) who unless he has loads of self confidence may more or less constantly be on the verge of committing seppuku, because he feels he simply isn't worthy and simply cannot live up to the expectations. Psychologically speaking Japan is an endlessly fascinating society!

And will at even be acceptable, in a very hierarchical society as the Japanese to have an emperor who during most of his life was subservient to quite a few other ordinary people? I'm here talking about the very conservative. (who are the main obstacle in regards to female succession as well)
In theory at least, the emperor is subservient to no one but his parents in his lifetime.

I could go on...

[M. Payton]

**Psychologically speaking Japan is an endlessly fascinating society!** Well that is a very nice way of putting the society of Japan in how they deal with this situation or life in general while the rest of the world far out reaches them in terms of dealing with life it seems to me.

Isn't that seppuku a thing also of the past as that is pretty dramatic to stab one's self to death? This country seems to be going further back into the dark ages as I call it then forward with the times we live in today.....I have always felt so sorry for the crown princess and I have a book somewhere here on her and her reluctance to marry into the family. Who can blame her for to me it is not an honor I would behold or want....Sad what is going on with Mako and her so called engagement also.... yet great reading and learning of another country and how they do things, a good learning experience here. Thank you Muhler for all the updates and info that you have provided.

[Muhler]

Well, I wasn't thinking about a literal seppuku, complete with knife, decapitation and a farewell-poem.
But the suicide-rate is high. Especially if you "fail". Fail in life, fail in your career, fail your obligation as an employee, student or leader - or in rare cases as a protest.
A future, hypothetical, appointed emperor (and not least his family!) may very well feel that he is failing. That he is failing in his duty to Japan - and take the appropriate way out...
Which is why an unprepared relative IMO should not be appointed emperor. Being a royal is demanding enough as it is. Being a monarch is harder. And being unprepared for such a job is orders of magnitudes worse.

BTW I once read a definition of the difference between seppuku and hara-kiri, which I found very handy, and easy to remember:
Seppuku: He committed a ritual and honorable suicide.
Hara-kiri: He sliced his belly open.

[M. Payton]

Oh I remember a movie some time ago, in fact a long time ago with this seppuku being shown, it had someone standing there besides the man with a knife pointed at his belly while he was kneeling on a rug in front of a *bowl* I think........the man standing had a huge sword ready at hand.....made me interested in how this was done and why. If the society of Japan is having a big suicide problem don't you think that the medical community would take an interest and work with people to understand their issues rather then dying and killing oneself? Death to me in permanent on this earth as we do not know that goes on after.......so why not take care of oneself now and do the best one can rather then being do dramatic? I believe if someone is of that mindset over life's issues that shows a weak and insecure person........that is just me only here and my opinion. Being a royal is even with all the perks and money or whatever is one damn hard job......I could not do it ever......I like my freedom for it is *priceless* to me. That is why I do not understand women marrying into royal families yet some have done a fabulous job of being a royal princess. Besides it would hurt terribly to stab the belly... and I do not like pain ever.........

[Muhler]

I wouldn't like that option either!
But that's not how it works in Japan.

Traditionally suicide is the answer to failure. Living on when you have failed will to many seem pointless.
Take a student who doesn't score as high grades as he aimed for. He is now a failure. He has let down himself, for not trying hard enough. He has let down his parents. His family. His university. Even, when taking it to the extreme, (in nationalistic conservative mindset) letting down Japan.
He has lost face. He has made his parents, to whom he is in debt (the concept of giri), feel ashamed.
Should he live on with that shame? Or should he take an honorable way out and wash the shame away?
Of course most Japanese learn to live with that failure, even though it sticks in their back of their mind for life. But enough choose suicide for it to be a problem.

The concept of seppuku was what sold Christianity to considerable segments of the domineering samurai classes back in the 1500's.
Jesus abandoned all material goods, wealth, property, status, rank, family, children - that was the ultimate self-sacrifice.
That he committed seppuku, by choosing death to avoid humiliation and as an atonement on behalf of mankind, appealed to samurais.
The thing about love thy neighbor and forgiveness and caring for the poor, certainly didn't! That appealed to the lower classes, but certainly not the samurais! But living a life of total self-sacrifice and total devotion to the ultimate daimyo; God, and ending his life in an honorable death, that was a seller!
I have of course simplified the whole thing a little bit, but that was pretty much the essence boiled down to basics.

[Tatiana Maria]

Originally Posted by Prisma

On July 17th, the Constitutional Democratic Party of Japan (CDP) decided to setup a committee to discuss stable inheritance, including female branches. Banri Kaieda will chair the committee; its first meeting is on the 20th.

Source: Jiji

Originally Posted by Muhler

Well, well, well...

It's a start. Albeit on a party level. I guess PM Abe's government don't see any need for such a committee?

Not surprising from the Constitutional Democratic Party, but it could be interesting to see how much news interest their committee will create.

Agreed, it is doubtful that Prime Minister Abe's government will ever set up a committee to discuss imperial inheritance. As an individual, Mr. Abe might have aimed at bringing in a boy from a former branch family to be the spare in case Hisahito does not have sons, but as Prime Minister, he is focused more on avoiding the topics of female succession and imperial branches, and a government committee would unavoidably give politicians who support female succession an opportunity to debate it.

[M. Payton]

Originally Posted by Muhler

I wouldn't like that option either!
But that's not how it works in Japan.

Traditionally suicide is the answer to failure. Living on when you have failed will to many seem pointless.
Take a student who doesn't score as high grades as he aimed for. He is now a failure. He has let down himself, for not trying hard enough. He has let down his parents. His family. His university. Even, when taking it to the extreme, (in nationalistic conservative mindset) letting down Japan.
He has lost face. He has made his parents, to whom he is in debt (the concept of giri), feel ashamed.
Should he live on with that shame? Or should he take an honorable way out and wash the shame away?
Of course most Japanese learn to live with that failure, even though it sticks in their back of their mind for life. But enough choose suicide for it to be a problem.

The concept of seppuku was what sold Christianity to considerable segments of the domineering samurai classes back in the 1500's.
Jesus abandoned all material goods, wealth, property, status, rank, family, children - that was the ultimate self-sacrifice.
That he committed seppuku, by choosing death to avoid humiliation and as an atonement on behalf of mankind, appealed to samurais.
The thing about love thy neighbor and forgiveness and caring for the poor, certainly didn't! That appealed to the lower classes, but certainly not the samurais! But living a life of total self-sacrifice and total devotion to the ultimate daimyo; God, and ending his life in an honorable death, that was a seller!
I have of course simplified the whole thing a little bit, but that was pretty much the essence boiled down to basics.

So here we have this *idea* of the Traditionally mined Japanese people that that suicide is okay in a sense if one fails at life or in a sense in all things. So how does a young child growing up develop these ideas that everything must be perfect for if not perfect then your a failure and suicide is the answer? I hope I am making sense here and as you know I am no intellect, the most unintellect person on earth is me yet I am willing to learn. Is this the norm in Japanese culture to think like this or behave the same? I can understand if this was done in the *dark ages of time* yet this is today in a world where everything is out in the open and all can see so why would a country still be seen as obeying customs of the *dark ages of time*? People as a whole in general grow and develop through time with all that is around them and even into marrying a different culture as we see all the time.....so why this idea of *failure* is so important that it can create one's death?


Now this next paragraph has me really confused here......that is not the Jesus I grew up with nor remember so is this a different Jesus in their religion from what I know? Not one single person anywhere lives a life of total self-sacrifice on this earth that I know of....and living one's life totally devoted to God also.....this is not done ever from all that I see, not even the Pope does that! So who and why are these beliefs so prevalent in a society that one is a total failure if not always doing things the way society or God wants them to be done? As you say a very fascinating society and might I add confusing to me as an outsider......well since I have always been an outsider things in life in general do get confusing at times....Thank you so much Muhler for the lovely conversation and I totally enjoyed it and all you offer here....

[Furienna]

Originally Posted by M. Payton

So here we have this *idea* of the Traditionally mined Japanese people that that suicide is okay in a sense if one fails at life or in a sense in all things. So how does a young child growing up develop these ideas that everything must be perfect for if not perfect then your a failure and suicide is the answer? I hope I am making sense here and as you know I am no intellect, the most unintellect person on earth is me yet I am willing to learn. Is this the norm in Japanese culture to think like this or behave the same? I can understand if this was done in the *dark ages of time* yet this is today in a world where everything is out in the open and all can see so why would a country still be seen as obeying customs of the *dark ages of time*? People as a whole in general grow and develop through time with all that is around them and even into marrying a different culture as we see all the time.....so why this idea of *failure* is so important that it can create one's death?

It seems to me that the Japanese are a conservative people, who still hang on to many old traditions and values. So I don't find the suicide rate in Japan for personal failure that strange at all, even though I agree that it seems extreme from a Western point of view.

Originally Posted by M. Payton

Now this next paragraph has me really confused here......that is not the Jesus I grew up with nor remember so is this a different Jesus in their religion from what I know? Not one single person anywhere lives a life of total self-sacrifice on this earth that I know of....and living one's life totally devoted to God also.....this is not done ever from all that I see, not even the Pope does that! So who and why are these beliefs so prevalent in a society that one is a total failure if not always doing things the way society or God wants them to be done? As you say a very fascinating society and might I add confusing to me as an outsider......well since I have always been an outsider things in life in general do get confusing at times....Thank you so much Muhler for the lovely conversation and I totally enjoyed it and all you offer here....

Actually, I believe that this different interpretation of Jesus makes sense from an old samurai point of view. Even though I guess that most Christians wouldn't see Jesus being crucified as a suicide (which was forbidden within Christianity for centuries anyway).

[Muhler]

You ask good questions, Payton

The short answer to your first question is: I don't know.
I don't know how prevalent the mindset of atonement by suicide is in Japan today. I does however appeal very much to the nationalists, very much represented by the current government.
It was very much a domineering trait in the Japanese society until certainly 1945. In fact it was cultivated by especially the militant governments between 1906 and 1945.
Simplified you can say that the start of the more fanatical Japanese nationalism began with the Japanese victory over Russia in 1906. That gave Japan a sense of immense of confidence and eventually overconfidence with the disastrous results we all know...
That resulted in an extreme interpretation of the Japanese samurai code of Bushido.
You must succeed, or die trying! And if you fail you lose face and then it's better you die than keep on living with that disgrace. In fact you restore your honor by dying. - Which is of course why prisoners of war, and civilians too for that matter were treated to awfully! They were worthless. They were without honor. They had failed. And totally incomprehensible; they chose to live on what that shame! What can possible be worse?!?
That was a definition of Bushido that came on later. Because Japan actually treated (western) prisoners of war honorably and totally within the accepted norms of the time, up until and including WWI.
Later on during the 20's and especially when Japan basically became a military authoritarian system in the 30's Bushido became more and more a death-cult IMO. Akin to Islamists nowadays.
But the remnants of Bushido still exist. As late as the 1970's it still happened that lone Japanese soldiers were found. They had never surrendered but stayed on their post for decades. That was the ultimate devotion to duty, fully in accordance with the Bushido spirit. And as a consequence, they were honored and treated with respect when returning to Japan. (Albeit not too officially, but certainly unofficially!) And they quietly received help, more help than they would otherwise receive.
In contrast, also a late as the 1970, perhaps even today, soldiers who had been captured alive, even when wounded, or even worse, who had surrendered were very much looked down upon. It was not something you talked about!
And they themselves felt ashamed. Something that has only begun to change in recent years.

Okay, let's have a look at Jesus.
Well, it really no surprise that you don't recognize the Japanese, or more correctly the samurai-Jesus.
As with every religion you embrace what appeals to you and your lifestyle.
Japanese peasants may find the notion of charity and tolerance appealing. But try tell a samurai to turn the other cheek!
So they naturally embraced the devotion of Jesus and his death and self sacrifice. And less the more pacifist bits of his teaching.

In that respect they were little different from Europeans of the same period.
If you belonged to the fighting classes, you embraced the warrior saints and probably the Virgin Mary, while Jesus was kept a bit in the background.
If you belonged to the praying classes, it was perhaps more the martyrs (and Virgin Mary) that appealed to you.
If you belonged to the ruling classes you advocated Jesus teachings about giving the emperor his due, live an ascetic life and be rewarded in Heaven and first and foremost turn the other cheek - for everybody else that is...
If you were poor, the notion about charity and love thy neighbor (show solidarity) and being rewarded for your life in poverty in the afterlife appealed to you. Not to mention the Virgin Mary, who in many ways was a kind of mother/fertility/love goddess at the time.

In short: Religions adapt to circumstances, just look at Christmas.
Anyway, most people read the Bible in the same way the Devil does: Only what suits them...

[M. Payton]

Originally Posted by Furienna

It seems to me that the Japanese are a conservative people, who still hang on to many old traditions and values. So I don't find the suicide rate in Japan for personal failure that strange at all, even though I agree that it seems extreme from a Western point of view.


Actually, I believe that this different interpretation of Jesus makes sense from an old samurai point of view. Even though I guess that most Christians wouldn't see Jesus being crucified as a suicide (which was forbidden within Christianity for centuries anyway).

Yes, I would think that suicide in any country would be the very extreme of handling any issue in life for that is the very end of life as we know it here on earth. I understand that the Japanese are very conservative with strong old traditions yet no traditions regardless of how old should be upheld to the point that failure brings one to the point of suicide ever....that to me is very cruel. All life is very precious, each moment and each day so taking that for granted is beyond me that any tradition would call for suicide.

Being a strong Christian and I do not preach my faith as I believe that for each of us our faith is just that...ours and private. So I do not believe that Jesus was ever crucified as it is said and whether that is true or not as it is stories made by men time long past that it was Pontius Pilate that ordered the death of Jesus. So that is not suicide at all. Suicide is a very delicate issue for many to even talk about......and I guess from my upbringing that is something that one who believes in Jesus does not do ever.....yet I do understand that a person can be pushed by their own emotional upheavals in life to get to the brink of doing such. For the Japanese in this day and age with all and everything on the internet to see and read I wonder how they can even contemplate such an act of doing this. It just befuddles my mind and maybe that is just a way for me to learn more about the way the Japanese and the royal family live in a very controlled environment.

[Muhler]

Jesus did not commit suicide as such. It was rather a suicide by Romans he did.

Jesus sought death. According to the Bible he could have avoided being captured several times, yet he didn't. He chose to be captured, tortured and painfully executed, without giving up his convictions and his devotion to his ultimate overlord, God. - And for that he was rewarded by a direct route to Heaven.
Also, one of the most fundamental teachings in Christianity is that Jesus died for our (all humans) sins. He sought death as an ultimate atonement of shame. (I.e. human sins.)
All that would have made sense to a samurai anno 1580.

The bits about Jesus being of very humble origins, and associating with poor and outcast did not appeal to samurais and was actually one of the major stumbling blocks for Christian missionaries in Japan at the time.
But the same things made Jesus less appetizing in aristocratic circles in Europe at the time as well. Hence why there was such a strong cult around the Virgin Mary.
It was actually the Reformation and it's back to basic ideology personified by Jesus, that in many ways restored the importance of Jesus. IMO of course.
Helped very much by the church (both Catholic, Protestant and Orthodox) who worked hard on reducing the significance of Mary as a second deity, which she in many ways was. Without ever really succeeding, certainly not within the Catholic church. She remained popular. Albeit loosing ground to Jesus.

[Furienna]

Originally Posted by Muhler

Jesus did not commit suicide as such. It was rather a suicide by Romans he did.

Jesus sought death. According to the Bible he could have avoided being captured several times, yet he didn't. He chose to be captured, tortured and painfully executed, without giving up his convictions and his devotion to his ultimate overlord, God. - And for that he was rewarded by a direct route to Heaven.
Also, one of the most fundamental teachings in Christianity is that Jesus died for our (all humans) sins. He sought death as an ultimate atonement of shame. (I.e. human sins.)
All that would have made sense to a samurai anno 1580.

The bits about Jesus being of very humble origins, and associating with poor and outcast did not appeal to samurais and was actually one of the major stumbling blocks for Christian missionaries in Japan at the time.
But the same things made Jesus less appetizing in aristocratic circles in Europe at the time as well. Hence why there was such a strong cult around the Virgin Mary.
It was actually the Reformation and it's back to basic ideology personified by Jesus, that in many ways restored the importance of Jesus. IMO of course.
Helped very much by the church (both Catholic, Protestant and Orthodox) who worked hard on reducing the significance of Mary as a second deity, which she in many ways was. Without ever really succeeding, certainly not within the Catholic church. She remained popular. Albeit loosing ground to Jesus.

I don't believe though that Jesus has ever been unimportant to any Christians, even if some parts of his story and his background was ignored by some aristocrats. After all, he happens to be, you know, The Christ, as in the building block of Christianity. It is true though that in the Medieval times, there were hundreds of saints around, who caught people's attention as well, and Mary was needed as a female figure in what otherwise was a very male-dominated religion.

[Osipi]

Very interesting conversation (and thanks, sis, for pointing it out). Reading through the discussion of seppuku, it brought to mind something I've seen not too long ago on a program describing eerie places and went in search of information. I'm including a link with information to Aokigahara, The Suicide Forest which still exists to this day.

15 Eerie Things About Japan's Suicide Forest | Mental Floss

[M. Payton]

Originally Posted by Muhler

You ask good questions, Payton

The short answer to your first question is: I don't know.
I don't know how prevalent the mindset of atonement by suicide is in Japan today. I does however appeal very much to the nationalists, very much represented by the current government.
It was very much a domineering trait in the Japanese society until certainly 1945. In fact it was cultivated by especially the militant governments between 1906 and 1945.
Simplified you can say that the start of the more fanatical Japanese nationalism began with the Japanese victory over Russia in 1906. That gave Japan a sense of immense of confidence and eventually overconfidence with the disastrous results we all know...
That resulted in an extreme interpretation of the Japanese samurai code of Bushido.
You must succeed, or die trying! And if you fail you lose face and then it's better you die than keep on living with that disgrace. In fact you restore your honor by dying. - Which is of course why prisoners of war, and civilians too for that matter were treated to awfully! They were worthless. They were without honor. They had failed. And totally incomprehensible; they chose to live on what that shame! What can possible be worse?!?
That was a definition of Bushido that came on later. Because Japan actually treated (western) prisoners of war honorably and totally within the accepted norms of the time, up until and including WWI.
Later on during the 20's and especially when Japan basically became a military authoritarian system in the 30's Bushido became more and more a death-cult IMO. Akin to Islamists nowadays.
But the remnants of Bushido still exist. As late as the 1970's it still happened that lone Japanese soldiers were found. They had never surrendered but stayed on their post for decades. That was the ultimate devotion to duty, fully in accordance with the Bushido spirit. And as a consequence, they were honored and treated with respect when returning to Japan. (Albeit not too officially, but certainly unofficially!) And they quietly received help, more help than they would otherwise receive.
In contrast, also a late as the 1970, perhaps even today, soldiers who had been captured alive, even when wounded, or even worse, who had surrendered were very much looked down upon. It was not something you talked about!
And they themselves felt ashamed. Something that has only begun to change in recent years.

Okay, let's have a look at Jesus.
Well, it really no surprise that you don't recognize the Japanese, or more correctly the samurai-Jesus.
As with every religion you embrace what appeals to you and your lifestyle.
Japanese peasants may find the notion of charity and tolerance appealing. But try tell a samurai to turn the other cheek!
So they naturally embraced the devotion of Jesus and his death and self sacrifice. And less the more pacifist bits of his teaching.

In that respect they were little different from Europeans of the same period.
If you belonged to the fighting classes, you embraced the warrior saints and probably the Virgin Mary, while Jesus was kept a bit in the background.
If you belonged to the praying classes, it was perhaps more the martyrs (and Virgin Mary) that appealed to you.
If you belonged to the ruling classes you advocated Jesus teachings about giving the emperor his due, live an ascetic life and be rewarded in Heaven and first and foremost turn the other cheek - for everybody else that is...
If you were poor, the notion about charity and love thy neighbor (show solidarity) and being rewarded for your life in poverty in the afterlife appealed to you. Not to mention the Virgin Mary, who in many ways was a kind of mother/fertility/love goddess at the time.

In short: Religions adapt to circumstances, just look at Christmas.
Anyway, most people read the Bible in the same way the Devil does: Only what suits them...

Okay, I took time today to do some research on the Bushido/Samuari Code.....why is it a problem for some? I found a site that was interesting and it listed the 7 Virtues of the Bushido Code, darn sounds like something needed in this world today for darn sure. In fact some of them I try to be the same each day of my life as that is what I believe......I had no problems with any of the virtues at all. It was very interesting and in fact there is a book called Bushido, The Soul of Japan written by Inazo Nitobe that Theodore Roosevelt and John F. Kennedy read as the site said....so that is on my list of books now to get. I like this Bushido and it showed strong honor and commitment and loyalty and nothing wrong with those virtues at all.

Now Jesus, yes I certainly did not recognize that Jesus, so their Jesus is more of the warrior type am I correct? He promotes the Bushido Code? Well the Jesus that I grew up with preaches all the same things in a different way, so to me in reading this, then it made sense to me. I get religion is a hot topic for the world yet not for me, I am a strong Christian and yet I do not go around preaching my faith as I am of the firm belief that each of us has a special place in our lives for our *own religion* and it is private. No need to get angry of someone else's belief I say, why? It is theirs, not yours. Let each of us keep our faith to ourselves and then there would be no fury over religion. I just do not get killing over a faith, for if a faith says to kill then that to me is hideous and cruel and not a religion but a man made escape on using a religion. Ah, turning the other cheek, I so get that, boy do I ever.....and I so very much agree with the Bushido Code of not turning the other cheek.....that to me is someone who stands tall for their own beliefs.

Yes the Bible, well I was brought up to believe in all the Bible says.......funny how that changed in life.....yes there are many great things in the Bible that I hold dear to this day yet I am not blind here.....it was written by men and all men during that time period had egos and wanted things their way so like the world today.....so for me some of the Bible is a history book which I keep. Yes we all take things from it to suit each of us if we believe in Jesus and the Bible.

Am I off topic here or what?

As for the succession of the throne in Japan well they are going to have a serious problem there is not facing it now.......Right now the Emperor seems to want things to do be done as it was when he was young, well the world grew and he did not grow with the changes of time and it seems neither did the IHA which to me does not make any sense on how they control that family. I would say that a serious *House Cleaning* needs to be done to bring that country and the royal family up to date yet still keep those traditions that are important but not the ones that are out of date in the times we live in.

Okay done........This has been enjoyable and a good learning experience for me and I love it.......Many Thank you for taking time to educate me and help me to learn......all about a very confusing culture that is so interesting.

[M. Payton]

Originally Posted by Muhler

Jesus did not commit suicide as such. It was rather a suicide by Romans he did.

Jesus sought death. According to the Bible he could have avoided being captured several times, yet he didn't. He chose to be captured, tortured and painfully executed, without giving up his convictions and his devotion to his ultimate overlord, God. - And for that he was rewarded by a direct route to Heaven.
Also, one of the most fundamental teachings in Christianity is that Jesus died for our (all humans) sins. He sought death as an ultimate atonement of shame. (I.e. human sins.)
All that would have made sense to a samurai anno 1580.

The bits about Jesus being of very humble origins, and associating with poor and outcast did not appeal to samurais and was actually one of the major stumbling blocks for Christian missionaries in Japan at the time.
But the same things made Jesus less appetizing in aristocratic circles in Europe at the time as well. Hence why there was such a strong cult around the Virgin Mary.
It was actually the Reformation and it's back to basic ideology personified by Jesus, that in many ways restored the importance of Jesus. IMO of course.
Helped very much by the church (both Catholic, Protestant and Orthodox) who worked hard on reducing the significance of Mary as a second deity, which she in many ways was. Without ever really succeeding, certainly not within the Catholic church. She remained popular. Albeit loosing ground to Jesus.

This above caught my eye, why do you think Jesus sought death? In reading the BOLD it brought to mind the Bushido Code, that sounds so much like what I read in that Code that Jesus did. Not turning the other cheek, not backing down, standing tall for your beliefs......all the very virtues that should be important in today's society and aren't. And how could the fact that associating with and helping the poor be a block when it was known in that time period that is who Jesus felt close to and helped......I do not know of the cult of Mary so that is new to me here......maybe I should read more of my Bible perhaps....or google that to get info. Yet way back in the times of the Saxons that is when some of the priest did the same as Jesus for they gave up everything to help the poor then. I was reading a book about a month ago that stated some of those facts about how during Alfred's time a number of priests walked the length of the land helping the poor and they only had what people gave them to eat and places to sleep.

All this is seems to in common with the Japanese Bushido Code of honor, so I think that even in different parts of the world and many different religions that there is many parts of each religion that is the same as others, so that to me shows that not only the Japanese have hand on honor and religion that everyone else does also just in different ways such as languages or how we live as a people.

[Osipi]

Originally Posted by M. Payton

All this is seems to in common with the Japanese Bushido Code of honor, so I think that even in different parts of the world and many different religions that there is many parts of each religion that is the same as others, so that to me shows that not only the Japanese have hand on honor and religion that everyone else does also just in different ways such as languages or how we live as a people.

One thing that strikes me is the similarity between the Bushido Code and Knights Templar and their code of chivalry.

I think one reason (and this is getting back to the topic at hand) that the Japanese are so wary of changing things is that its a big part of their culture. Shinto is the major belief system of Japan and is defined as "Shinto or kami-no-michi is the traditional religion of Japan that focuses on ritual practices to be carried out diligently to establish a connection between present-day Japan and its ancient past."

Its extremely hard to change ingrained beliefs that have endured since time immemorial in a culture.

[M. Payton]

Originally Posted by Osipi

One thing that strikes me is the similarity between the Bushido Code and Knights Templar and their code of chivalry. I think one reason (and this is getting back to the topic at hand) that the Japanese are so wary of changing things is that its a big part of their culture. Shinto is the major belief system of Japan and is defined as "Shinto or kami-no-michi is the traditional religion of Japan that focuses on ritual practices to be carried out diligently to establish a connection between present-day Japan and its ancient past."

Its extremely hard to change ingrained beliefs that have endured since time immemorial in a culture.

Okay so this is new to me also, so just what are these ritual practices that are done to help anyone understand the connection to what is today and what is the past........maybe I am not saying it right but what are ritual practices and how are they done and what do they mean?

[Osipi]

To be honest, I know very little about Shinto other than the what I've posted. I've been meaning to get into more Oriental studies but as the Queen of Procrastination, it ain't happened yet. I'm sure there's a lot of information on the web just waiting to be surfed to.

[Muhler]

Yes, Osipi & Payton.
In essence the Bushido code is little different from other warrior codes all over the world - in organized nations that is!
From a cynical point of view it makes perfect sense.
Once you have established a nation with laws, administration, a ruling elite and taxation, you need to reign in the warrior class, who are basically a bunch of well-armed, well-trained and very aggressive people.
So (with the help of religion, titles, ennoblement and property) you install in them a code of honor in which they are obliged to for example:
Protect and defend the weak = Respect the law and don't run around acting like a bandit, instead fight the bandits.
Be virtuous = Otherwise there is trouble for you in the afterlife!
Stand tall for your convictions = Don't back down and get yourself corrupted.
Be loyal = To your king and lord, preferably...
Respect women = Don't rape everything in sight!
Seek out and fight for injustice = Don't fight among yourselves, fight an (designated) enemy.
- As we all know it didn't, in fact rarely worked out quite that way...

In Japan they had had several hundred years of almost continuous civil war, by the time the Portuguese and the Christian missionaries landed there. And that state of affair ended pretty abruptly in the 1630's when Japan isolated itself after having crushed a Christian rebellion.
The Samurai classes in particular had to redefine their role completely until Japan was forced to open up in the 1850's.
That they did BTW but cultivating art, poetry, literature and so on to almost hysterical heights. - While still remaining warriors though.
That 225 years of almost total isolation (Nagasaki was the only port of call in Japan) is also one of the keys to understanding Japanese mindset to this day.

Like I said before, You do ask good questions, M Payton.

Jesus dying on the cross for our sins is one of the absolute key elements in Christianity, especially combined with the resulting Resurrection. Which I believe is also the reason why Christianity eventually replaced the fish as a Christian symbol with the cross. (Jesus very symbolic death took precedence over his miracles.)
Why he chose to let himself be killed that way and at that particular time is of course a question with a multitude of answers!
I'm not a theologian, I can only answer that question as an atheist. Your answer will be based on you being a Christian and a Muslim will have a third answer.
I think that we at least in this thread should contend ourselves with how Jesus might have been perceived by the Japanese in the period up to the 1630's. Don't you agree?

[M. Payton]

Originally Posted by Muhler

Yes, Osipi & Payton.
In essence the Bushido code is little different from other warrior codes all over the world - in organized nations that is!
From a cynical point of view it makes perfect sense.
Once you have established a nation with laws, administration, a ruling elite and taxation, you need to reign in the warrior class, who are basically a bunch of well-armed, well-trained and very aggressive people.
So (with the help of religion, titles, ennoblement and property) you install in them a code of honor in which they are obliged to for example:
Protect and defend the weak = Respect the law and don't run around acting like a bandit, instead fight the bandits.
Be virtuous = Otherwise there is trouble for you in the afterlife!
Stand tall for your convictions = Don't back down and get yourself corrupted.
Be loyal = To your king and lord, preferably...
Respect women = Don't rape everything in sight!
Seek out and fight for injustice = Don't fight among yourselves, fight an (designated) enemy.
- As we all know it didn't, in fact rarely worked out quite that way...

In Japan they had had several hundred years of almost continuous civil war, by the time the Portuguese and the Christian missionaries landed there. And that state of affair ended pretty abruptly in the 1630's when Japan isolated itself after having crushed a Christian rebellion.
The Samurai classes in particular had to redefine their role completely until Japan was forced to open up in the 1850's.
That they did BTW but cultivating art, poetry, literature and so on to almost hysterical heights. - While still remaining warriors though.
That 225 years of almost total isolation (Nagasaki was the only port of call in Japan) is also one of the keys to understanding Japanese mindset to this day.

Like I said before, You do ask good questions, M Payton.

Jesus dying on the cross for our sins is one of the absolute key elements in Christianity, especially combined with the resulting Resurrection. Which I believe is also the reason why Christianity eventually replaced the fish as a Christian symbol with the cross. (Jesus very symbolic death took precedence over his miracles.)
Why he chose to let himself be killed that way and at that particular time is of course a question with a multitude of answers!
I'm not a theologian, I can only answer that question as an atheist. Your answer will be based on you being a Christian and a Muslim will have a third answer.
I think that we at least in this thread should contend ourselves with how Jesus might have been perceived by the Japanese in the period up to the 1630's. Don't you agree?

Now this caught my eye, how can any country shut the door on the world around it for over 200 years and how did that shape the country of today? If in fact that is how the Japanese society is because of that time period then what brought that on to do such a dramatic thing to a people? Something dire must of been going on there and it has carried over until the way the people are today? So very interesting ....was there a royal family back then? Is the royal family of today from that time period or what happened then to the royal family? Are these the same traditions of that period or are they something that developed over time in the religion of the country at that time? Sorry for all the questions ......I don't know anything about that time period in Japan so would Jesus be the way he is today or a different view of him would of emerged?