Succession and Membership Issues

[O-H Anglophile]

Originally Posted by Somebody

I understand there would be issues - most important whether they would be interested; probably not - but in my example we are talking about a nephew of the emperor who was born as a member of the imperial family, so not a distant family member at all. And as these princes were removed by the Americans and therefore by a foreign power, reinstating them (or at least some of them) to me wouldn't be that illogical but just a correction of an 'error' by the Americans.

The problem is that the imperial house was reduced significantly and because of that it has been made impossible for the princesses to marry imperial princes as they are still alive but no longer recognized as such. For example the current emperor's eldest sister was forced to leave the imperial family while she met all requirements (i.e. marrying an imperial prince - who himself also was a grandchild of emperor Meiji).

The current emperor's only brother has no children, so there is no nephew. His father had three brothers but two were childless and the third only had granddaughters. Males are sparse in the family.
The male descendants of earlier emperors would be distant cousins of the current family.

[CrownPrincessJava]

Originally Posted by O-H Anglophile

The current emperor's only brother has no children, so there is no nephew. His father had three brothers but two were childless and the third only had granddaughters. Males are sparse in the family.
The male descendants of earlier emperors would be distant cousins of the current family.

In addition, the two princesses that have "left" the Imperial Family are themselves childless. Introducing female branches is still pointless unless there are male descendants.

The Imperial Family are looking down the barrel of extinction purely by their own ideologies. I feel very sorry for the little Prince and more so for his future spouse.

[Biri]

Originally Posted by CrownPrincessJava

In addition, the two princesses that have "left" the Imperial Family are themselves childless. Introducing female branches is still pointless unless there are male descendants.

The Imperial Family are looking down the barrel of extinction purely by their own ideologies. I feel very sorry for the little Prince and more so for his future spouse.

Which ones are childless?

[CrownPrincessJava]

Originally Posted by Biri

Which ones are childless?

Sayako Kuroda and Noriko Senge

[Biri]

Originally Posted by CrownPrincessJava

Sayako Kuroda and Noriko Senge

As for Noriko; she is only 30, she still can have children.

In fact, from what do we know for sure they are childless? I doubt Imperial House would announce their pregnancies/births of children if these children would be private citizens.

I remember when Prince Mikasa died in October 2016, it was written that he had four great-grandchildren; English Wikipedia says that his firstborn grandson, Tadahiro Konoe [only child of his firstborn daughter, former Princess Yasuko & her husband Tadateru Konoe], has three children (two boys and one girl) so I suppose that the fourth one is Noriko's.

[CrownPrincessJava]

Originally Posted by Biri

As for Noriko; she is only 30, she still can have children.

In fact, from what do we know for sure they are childless? I doubt Imperial House would announce their pregnancies/births of children if these children would be private citizens.

I remember when Prince Mikasa died in October 2016, it was written that he had four great-grandchildren; English Wikipedia says that his firstborn grandson, Tadahiro Konoe [only child of his firstborn daughter, former Princess Yasuko & her husband Tadateru Konoe], has three children (two boys and one girl) so I suppose that the fourth one is Noriko's.

If photos of Princess Mako and her boyfriend surfaced, no doubt news on great-nephews or amother grandson of the current Emperor would uncovered.

[Friedrich Karl II]

Originally Posted by CrownPrincessJava

In addition, the two princesses that have "left" the Imperial Family are themselves childless. Introducing female branches is still pointless unless there are male descendants.

The Imperial Family are looking down the barrel of extinction purely by their own ideologies. I feel very sorry for the little Prince and more so for his future spouse.

Hisahito indeed will have not easy adulthood speciality if he gets only daughters or doesn't get children all. There will be much pressure towards him and his spouse. These conservative are serious threat to monarchy.

[Ista]

Originally Posted by CrownPrincessJava

In addition, the two princesses that have "left" the Imperial Family are themselves childless. Introducing female branches is still pointless unless there are male descendants.

The Imperial Family are looking down the barrel of extinction purely by their own ideologies. I feel very sorry for the little Prince and more so for his future spouse.

Very much this.

If things stay as they are, I question whether Hisahito will be able to find a young woman who would be willing to take on a role as the future empress. The experiences of both Empress Michiko and CP Masako are instructive, and both of them married, to all appearances, with the love and support of their husbands and still experienced pressure from family, the IHA, and society in general that resulted in stress-related mental and physical illnesses.

[crm2317]

Do you believe Hisahito and his future spouse would be pressured into using gender selection or would the succession rules be changed instead.

[Ista]

Originally Posted by crm2317

Do you believe Hisahito and his future spouse would be pressured into using gender selection or would the succession rules be changed instead.

I think this is a pretty safe bet, and possibly the least stressful option for the future spouse. At that point, any young woman who Hisahito was interested in would have to know what kind of expectations and pressure she would be facing.

[Tatiana Maria]

Originally Posted by crm2317

Do you believe Hisahito and his future spouse would be pressured into using gender selection or would the succession rules be changed instead.

I suppose it depends on the agenda of whoever will be the prime minister when Hisahito marries.

Originally Posted by O-H Anglophile

The current emperor's only brother has no children, so there is no nephew. His father had three brothers but two were childless and the third only had granddaughters. Males are sparse in the family.
The male descendants of earlier emperors would be distant cousins of the current family.

Somebody referred to the emperor's deceased sister Shigeko Higashikuni and her children. Her husband was one of the distant cousins who were forced to leave the imperial family in 1947.

Originally Posted by Biri

As for Noriko; she is only 30, she still can have children.

In fact, from what do we know for sure they are childless? I doubt Imperial House would announce their pregnancies/births of children if these children would be private citizens.

I remember when Prince Mikasa died in October 2016, it was written that he had four great-grandchildren; English Wikipedia says that his firstborn grandson, Tadahiro Konoe [only child of his firstborn daughter, former Princess Yasuko & her husband Tadateru Konoe], has three children (two boys and one girl) so I suppose that the fourth one is Noriko's.

Originally Posted by CrownPrincessJava

If photos of Princess Mako and her boyfriend surfaced, no doubt news on great-nephews or amother grandson of the current Emperor would uncovered.

I don't know if there is the same level of interest with reporters and photographers regarding Noriko Senge's possible children as with Princesses Mako and Kako's boyfriends (perhaps members who watch and read the news in Japanese could clarify) or if the reports would be made available in English.

If it happens that Noriko cannot have or decides not to have children, that would not preclude other women in the family from having them, much as Emperor Akihito had children although his brother did not. Both of Noriko's paternal aunts and two of the emperor's sisters had children.

Originally Posted by CrownPrincessJava

Introducing female branches is still pointless unless there are male descendants.

Why is that?

Originally Posted by Somebody

Edit: The emperor's eldest sister was married to a cousin and their eldest two children were born as members of the royal family. Why can't they (and others) be reinstated? In that case Japan would have additional princes and princesses:

Originally Posted by Somebody

I understand there would be issues - most important whether they would be interested; probably not - but in my example we are talking about a nephew of the emperor who was born as a member of the imperial family, so not a distant family member at all. And as these princes were removed by the Americans and therefore by a foreign power, reinstating them (or at least some of them) to me wouldn't be that illogical but just a correction of an 'error' by the Americans.

The problem is that the imperial house was reduced significantly and because of that it has been made impossible for the princesses to marry imperial princes as they are still alive but no longer recognized as such. For example the current emperor's eldest sister was forced to leave the imperial family while she met all requirements (i.e. marrying an imperial prince - who himself also was a grandchild of emperor Meiji).

As far as I understand your question, I think the "why" is that people in Japan do not feel that the impossibility for a princess to marry a prince is a problem.

[Prisma]

The public do not know the ex-Imperial branches, Ōke, or Emperor Akihito's sisters' children. They are private citizens and did not grow up in the Imperial system or traditions.

Even Imperial descendant Tsuneyasu Takeda can't imagine returning to Imperial status despite supporting paternal succession.

INTERVIEW - Japan emperor descendant defends male succession - World | The Star Online

[...] But although Takeda has written that such men should feel a responsibility to maintain the royal house, he said he would feel overwhelmed if asked to step in to fill the gap.

"Sometimes people say it would be good if I were to...return to imperial status, but that is something that I would be overawed by," said Takeda, who was raised as a commoner. "It's something I can't even imagine."

The education of an imperial heir, a position devoid of political power but steeped in tradition, usually begins at the age of 3.

[...]

Imperial family ranks dwindling as marriages take their toll：The Asahi Shimbun

[...] Akihito, in a 2005 news conference, had nothing but praise for female members of the imperial family, stating that they had played their roles "tangibly as well as intangibly to a remarkable degree.”

When the Democratic Party of Japan was in power, it initiated discussions on allowing female members of the imperial family to establish their own imperial branch that would allow them to retain their royal status even after marriage.

Sources in the Imperial Household Agency said Akihito followed the proceedings with great interest.

But such discussions have fallen by the wayside under the current Abe administration.

The same sources lamented that no attempt had been made to revive the discussions on a branch limited to princesses who are children or grandchildren of an emperor, or expanding it to great-grandchildren and beyond.

“For female members, this is an issue that has great bearing on their lives," said one of the sources. "I wish (the administration) would bring this matter back for discussion.”

[...]

[Somebody]

Originally Posted by O-H Anglophile

The current emperor's only brother has no children, so there is no nephew. His father had three brothers but two were childless and the third only had granddaughters. Males are sparse in the family.
The male descendants of earlier emperors would be distant cousins of the current family.

In male-line they would be distant cousins but as I pointed out (and as has been pointed out in the Japanese media), the current emperor's eldest sister's children (so his nephew and niece!) were born imperial prince and imperial princess as both parents belonged to the imperial house.

[Somebody]

Originally Posted by CrownPrincessJava

In addition, the two princesses that have "left" the Imperial Family are themselves childless. Introducing female branches is still pointless unless there are male descendants.

The Imperial Family are looking down the barrel of extinction purely by their own ideologies. I feel very sorry for the little Prince and more so for his future spouse.

The current emperor had 5 sisters. The eldest married as a member of the house and remained a member of the house until the Americans decided to get rid of all branches but the emperor's male-line branch.

* Shigeko, Princess Teru (December 6, 1925 - July 23, 1961) married on October 10, 1943 Prince Morihiro Higashikuni; had 5 children (including male issue and at least one male-line grandson): Prince Nobuhiko Higashikuni, Princess Fumiko Higashikuni, Naohiko Higashikuni, Hidehiko Higashikuni, Yūko Higashikuni

* Srachiko, Princess Hisa (September 10, 1927 - March 6, 1928)

* Kazuko, Princess Taka (September 30, 1929 - May 26, 1989) married on May 20, 1950 Toshimichi Takatsukasa; had 1 adopted child: Naotake Takatsukasa

* Atsuko, Princess Yori (March 7, 1931) married on October 10, 1952 Takamasa Ikeda; no children

* Akihito, Emperor of Japan (December 23, 1933) married on April 10, 1959
Michiko Shōda; 3 children: Naruhito, Crown Prince of Japan, Fumihito, Prince Akishino, and Sayako, Princess Nori

* Masahito, Prince Hitachi (November 28, 1935) married on September 30, 1964 Hanako Tsugaru

* Takako, Princess Suga (March 2, 1939) married on March 10, 1960 Hisanaga Shimazu; 1 child: Yoshihisa Shimazu (no idea whether he is married and has children)


I don't think it is likely they will reinstate these imperial princesses but it would be smart if they decided to make sure that the granddaughters of the current emperor would be allowed to start their own imperial branches - three families to choose from if Hisahito doesn't have any sons.


The other princesses are second cousins to the next emperor; so in a lesser blood relationship than the cousins mentioned above.

[Somebody]

Originally Posted by crm2317

Do you believe Hisahito and his future spouse would be pressured into using gender selection or would the succession rules be changed instead.

Hopefully they wouldn't. Why wouldn't they first be allowed to have children the normal way (in that case gender selection is impossible)? I would sincerely hope they will not go into the medical circuit if not necessary.

[CrownPrincessJava]

Originally Posted by Somebody

I don't think it is likely they will reinstate these imperial princesses but it would be smart if they decided to make sure that the granddaughters of the current emperor would be allowed to start their own imperial branches - three families to choose from if Hisahito doesn't have any sons.


The other princesses are second cousins to the next emperor; so in a lesser blood relationship than the cousins mentioned above.

I agree. I couldn't see retrospective action. If they do reintroduce female braches, I suspect it'll be from this generation, and possibly from the current Emperor's line, i.e Princesses Sayako, Mako, Kako and Aiko.

It the next 10-15 years, Princesses Mako, Kako and Aiko may have left the family due to marriage and possibly be living overseas. The Japanese government and IHA may think this is still a long time in the future, but realistically it's not. And if they are living abroad, there is no guranatee they will return to Japan (I suspect they wouldn't)

[Prisma]

On July 17th, the Constitutional Democratic Party of Japan (CDP) decided to setup a committee to discuss stable inheritance, including female branches. Banri Kaieda will chair the committee; its first meeting is on the 20th.

Source: Jiji

[Muhler]

Originally Posted by Prisma

On July 17th, the Constitutional Democratic Party of Japan (CDP) decided to setup a committee to discuss stable inheritance, including female branches. Banri Kaieda will chair the committee; its first meeting is on the 20th.

Source: Jiji

Well, well, well...

It's a start. Albeit on a party level. I guess PM Abe's government don't see any need for such a committee?

[Friedrich Karl II]

Originally Posted by Prisma

On July 17th, the Constitutional Democratic Party of Japan (CDP) decided to setup a committee to discuss stable inheritance, including female branches. Banri Kaieda will chair the committee; its first meeting is on the 20th.

Source: Jiji

Well, good if they even try change something but I doubt that this will lead anywhere. They tried quiet seriously change things between births of Aiko and Hisahito and there didn't happen anything. Yes, it was allowing female ascending to Chrysanterium throne but still. I don't believe that anything actually will be changed before them have change things.

[M. Payton]

Does anyone think that the Chrysanterium Throne will eventually die out with no male heirs to be had and only females in the family? I find this a very sad and unbelievable situation that is going on in Japan's royal family for this is not the dark ages here. Are or is everyone so unwilling to do something now before it is to late? Why?