Succession and Membership Issues

[O-H Anglophile]

I understand there would be issues - most important whether they would be interested; probably not - but in my example we are talking about a nephew of the emperor who was born as a member of the imperial family, so not a distant family member at all. And as these princes were removed by the Americans and therefore by a foreign power, reinstating them (or at least some of them) to me wouldn't be that illogical but just a correction of an 'error' by the Americans.

The problem is that the imperial house was reduced significantly and because of that it has been made impossible for the princesses to marry imperial princes as they are still alive but no longer recognized as such. For example the current emperor's eldest sister was forced to leave the imperial family while she met all requirements (i.e. marrying an imperial prince - who himself also was a grandchild of emperor Meiji).

The current emperor's only brother has no children, so there is no nephew. His father had three brothers but two were childless and the third only had granddaughters. Males are sparse in the family.
The male descendants of earlier emperors would be distant cousins of the current family.

 

[CrownPrincessJava]

The current emperor's only brother has no children, so there is no nephew. His father had three brothers but two were childless and the third only had granddaughters. Males are sparse in the family.
The male descendants of earlier emperors would be distant cousins of the current family.

In addition, the two princesses that have "left" the Imperial Family are themselves childless. Introducing female branches is still pointless unless there are male descendants.

The Imperial Family are looking down the barrel of extinction purely by their own ideologies. I feel very sorry for the little Prince and more so for his future spouse.

 

[Biri]

In addition, the two princesses that have "left" the Imperial Family are themselves childless. Introducing female branches is still pointless unless there are male descendants.

The Imperial Family are looking down the barrel of extinction purely by their own ideologies. I feel very sorry for the little Prince and more so for his future spouse.

Which ones are childless?

 

[CrownPrincessJava]

Which ones are childless?

Sayako Kuroda and Noriko Senge

 

[Biri]

Sayako Kuroda and Noriko Senge

As for Noriko; she is only 30, she still can have children.

In fact, from what do we know for sure they are childless? I doubt Imperial House would announce their pregnancies/births of children if these children would be private citizens.

I remember when Prince Mikasa died in October 2016, it was written that he had four great-grandchildren; English Wikipedia says that his firstborn grandson, Tadahiro Konoe [only child of his firstborn daughter, former Princess Yasuko & her husband Tadateru Konoe], has three children (two boys and one girl) so I suppose that the fourth one is Noriko's.

 

[CrownPrincessJava]

As for Noriko; she is only 30, she still can have children.

In fact, from what do we know for sure they are childless? I doubt Imperial House would announce their pregnancies/births of children if these children would be private citizens.

I remember when Prince Mikasa died in October 2016, it was written that he had four great-grandchildren; English Wikipedia says that his firstborn grandson, Tadahiro Konoe [only child of his firstborn daughter, former Princess Yasuko & her husband Tadateru Konoe], has three children (two boys and one girl) so I suppose that the fourth one is Noriko's.

If photos of Princess Mako and her boyfriend surfaced, no doubt news on great-nephews or amother grandson of the current Emperor would uncovered.

 

[Friedrich Karl II]

In addition, the two princesses that have "left" the Imperial Family are themselves childless. Introducing female branches is still pointless unless there are male descendants.

The Imperial Family are looking down the barrel of extinction purely by their own ideologies. I feel very sorry for the little Prince and more so for his future spouse.

Hisahito indeed will have not easy adulthood speciality if he gets only daughters or doesn't get children all. There will be much pressure towards him and his spouse. These conservative are serious threat to monarchy.

 

[Ista]

In addition, the two princesses that have "left" the Imperial Family are themselves childless. Introducing female branches is still pointless unless there are male descendants.

The Imperial Family are looking down the barrel of extinction purely by their own ideologies. I feel very sorry for the little Prince and more so for his future spouse.

Very much this.

If things stay as they are, I question whether Hisahito will be able to find a young woman who would be willing to take on a role as the future empress. The experiences of both Empress Michiko and CP Masako are instructive, and both of them married, to all appearances, with the love and support of their husbands and still experienced pressure from family, the IHA, and society in general that resulted in stress-related mental and physical illnesses.

 

[crm2317]

Do you believe Hisahito and his future spouse would be pressured into using gender selection or would the succession rules be changed instead.

 

[Ista]

Do you believe Hisahito and his future spouse would be pressured into using gender selection or would the succession rules be changed instead.

I think this is a pretty safe bet, and possibly the least stressful option for the future spouse. At that point, any young woman who Hisahito was interested in would have to know what kind of expectations and pressure she would be facing.

 

[Tatiana Maria]

Do you believe Hisahito and his future spouse would be pressured into using gender selection or would the succession rules be changed instead.

I suppose it depends on the agenda of whoever will be the prime minister when Hisahito marries.

The current emperor's only brother has no children, so there is no nephew. His father had three brothers but two were childless and the third only had granddaughters. Males are sparse in the family.
The male descendants of earlier emperors would be distant cousins of the current family.

Somebody referred to the emperor's deceased sister Shigeko Higashikuni and her children. Her husband was one of the distant cousins who were forced to leave the imperial family in 1947.

As for Noriko; she is only 30, she still can have children.

In fact, from what do we know for sure they are childless? I doubt Imperial House would announce their pregnancies/births of children if these children would be private citizens.

I remember when Prince Mikasa died in October 2016, it was written that he had four great-grandchildren; English Wikipedia says that his firstborn grandson, Tadahiro Konoe [only child of his firstborn daughter, former Princess Yasuko & her husband Tadateru Konoe], has three children (two boys and one girl) so I suppose that the fourth one is Noriko's.

If photos of Princess Mako and her boyfriend surfaced, no doubt news on great-nephews or amother grandson of the current Emperor would uncovered.

I don't know if there is the same level of interest with reporters and photographers regarding Noriko Senge's possible children as with Princesses Mako and Kako's boyfriends (perhaps members who watch and read the news in Japanese could clarify) or if the reports would be made available in English.

If it happens that Noriko cannot have or decides not to have children, that would not preclude other women in the family from having them, much as Emperor Akihito had children although his brother did not. Both of Noriko's paternal aunts and two of the emperor's sisters had children.

Introducing female branches is still pointless unless there are male descendants.

Why is that?

Edit: The emperor's eldest sister was married to a cousin and their eldest two children were born as members of the royal family. Why can't they (and others) be reinstated? In that case Japan would have additional princes and princesses:

I understand there would be issues - most important whether they would be interested; probably not - but in my example we are talking about a nephew of the emperor who was born as a member of the imperial family, so not a distant family member at all. And as these princes were removed by the Americans and therefore by a foreign power, reinstating them (or at least some of them) to me wouldn't be that illogical but just a correction of an 'error' by the Americans.

The problem is that the imperial house was reduced significantly and because of that it has been made impossible for the princesses to marry imperial princes as they are still alive but no longer recognized as such. For example the current emperor's eldest sister was forced to leave the imperial family while she met all requirements (i.e. marrying an imperial prince - who himself also was a grandchild of emperor Meiji).

As far as I understand your question, I think the "why" is that people in Japan do not feel that the impossibility for a princess to marry a prince is a problem.

 

[Prisma]

The public do not know the ex-Imperial branches, Ōke, or Emperor Akihito's sisters' children. They are private citizens and did not grow up in the Imperial system or traditions.

Even Imperial descendant Tsuneyasu Takeda can't imagine returning to Imperial status despite supporting paternal succession.

INTERVIEW - Japan emperor descendant defends male succession - World | The Star Online

[...] But although Takeda has written that such men should feel a responsibility to maintain the royal house, he said he would feel overwhelmed if asked to step in to fill the gap.

"Sometimes people say it would be good if I were to...return to imperial status, but that is something that I would be overawed by," said Takeda, who was raised as a commoner. "It's something I can't even imagine."

The education of an imperial heir, a position devoid of political power but steeped in tradition, usually begins at the age of 3.

[...]

Imperial family ranks dwindling as marriages take their toll：The Asahi Shimbun

[...] Akihito, in a 2005 news conference, had nothing but praise for female members of the imperial family, stating that they had played their roles "tangibly as well as intangibly to a remarkable degree.”

When the Democratic Party of Japan was in power, it initiated discussions on allowing female members of the imperial family to establish their own imperial branch that would allow them to retain their royal status even after marriage.

Sources in the Imperial Household Agency said Akihito followed the proceedings with great interest.

But such discussions have fallen by the wayside under the current Abe administration.

The same sources lamented that no attempt had been made to revive the discussions on a branch limited to princesses who are children or grandchildren of an emperor, or expanding it to great-grandchildren and beyond.

“For female members, this is an issue that has great bearing on their lives," said one of the sources. "I wish (the administration) would bring this matter back for discussion.”

[...]

 

[Somebody]

The current emperor's only brother has no children, so there is no nephew. His father had three brothers but two were childless and the third only had granddaughters. Males are sparse in the family.
The male descendants of earlier emperors would be distant cousins of the current family.

In male-line they would be distant cousins but as I pointed out (and as has been pointed out in the Japanese media), the current emperor's eldest sister's children (so his nephew and niece!) were born imperial prince and imperial princess as both parents belonged to the imperial house.

 

[Somebody]

In addition, the two princesses that have "left" the Imperial Family are themselves childless. Introducing female branches is still pointless unless there are male descendants.

The Imperial Family are looking down the barrel of extinction purely by their own ideologies. I feel very sorry for the little Prince and more so for his future spouse.

The current emperor had 5 sisters. The eldest married as a member of the house and remained a member of the house until the Americans decided to get rid of all branches but the emperor's male-line branch.

* Shigeko, Princess Teru (December 6, 1925 - July 23, 1961) married on October 10, 1943 Prince Morihiro Higashikuni; had 5 children (including male issue and at least one male-line grandson): Prince Nobuhiko Higashikuni, Princess Fumiko Higashikuni, Naohiko Higashikuni, Hidehiko Higashikuni, Yūko Higashikuni

* Srachiko, Princess Hisa (September 10, 1927 - March 6, 1928)

* Kazuko, Princess Taka (September 30, 1929 - May 26, 1989) married on May 20, 1950 Toshimichi Takatsukasa; had 1 adopted child: Naotake Takatsukasa

* Atsuko, Princess Yori (March 7, 1931) married on October 10, 1952 Takamasa Ikeda; no children

* Akihito, Emperor of Japan (December 23, 1933) married on April 10, 1959
Michiko Shōda; 3 children: Naruhito, Crown Prince of Japan, Fumihito, Prince Akishino, and Sayako, Princess Nori

* Masahito, Prince Hitachi (November 28, 1935) married on September 30, 1964 Hanako Tsugaru

* Takako, Princess Suga (March 2, 1939) married on March 10, 1960 Hisanaga Shimazu; 1 child: Yoshihisa Shimazu (no idea whether he is married and has children)


I don't think it is likely they will reinstate these imperial princesses but it would be smart if they decided to make sure that the granddaughters of the current emperor would be allowed to start their own imperial branches - three families to choose from if Hisahito doesn't have any sons.


The other princesses are second cousins to the next emperor; so in a lesser blood relationship than the cousins mentioned above.

 

[Somebody]

Do you believe Hisahito and his future spouse would be pressured into using gender selection or would the succession rules be changed instead.

Hopefully they wouldn't. Why wouldn't they first be allowed to have children the normal way (in that case gender selection is impossible)? I would sincerely hope they will not go into the medical circuit if not necessary.

 

[CrownPrincessJava]

I don't think it is likely they will reinstate these imperial princesses but it would be smart if they decided to make sure that the granddaughters of the current emperor would be allowed to start their own imperial branches - three families to choose from if Hisahito doesn't have any sons.


The other princesses are second cousins to the next emperor; so in a lesser blood relationship than the cousins mentioned above.

I agree. I couldn't see retrospective action. If they do reintroduce female braches, I suspect it'll be from this generation, and possibly from the current Emperor's line, i.e Princesses Sayako, Mako, Kako and Aiko.

It the next 10-15 years, Princesses Mako, Kako and Aiko may have left the family due to marriage and possibly be living overseas. The Japanese government and IHA may think this is still a long time in the future, but realistically it's not. And if they are living abroad, there is no guranatee they will return to Japan (I suspect they wouldn't)

 

[Prisma]

On July 17th, the Constitutional Democratic Party of Japan (CDP) decided to setup a committee to discuss stable inheritance, including female branches. Banri Kaieda will chair the committee; its first meeting is on the 20th.

Source: Jiji

 

[Muhler]

On July 17th, the Constitutional Democratic Party of Japan (CDP) decided to setup a committee to discuss stable inheritance, including female branches. Banri Kaieda will chair the committee; its first meeting is on the 20th.

Source: Jiji

Well, well, well...

It's a start. Albeit on a party level. I guess PM Abe's government don't see any need for such a committee?

 

[Friedrich Karl II]

On July 17th, the Constitutional Democratic Party of Japan (CDP) decided to setup a committee to discuss stable inheritance, including female branches. Banri Kaieda will chair the committee; its first meeting is on the 20th.

Source: Jiji

Well, good if they even try change something but I doubt that this will lead anywhere. They tried quiet seriously change things between births of Aiko and Hisahito and there didn't happen anything. Yes, it was allowing female ascending to Chrysanterium throne but still. I don't believe that anything actually will be changed before them have change things.

 

[M. Payton]

Does anyone think that the Chrysanterium Throne will eventually die out with no male heirs to be had and only females in the family? I find this a very sad and unbelievable situation that is going on in Japan's royal family for this is not the dark ages here. Are or is everyone so unwilling to do something now before it is to late? Why?

 

[Muhler]

Does anyone think that the Chrysanterium Throne will eventually die out with no male heirs to be had and only females in the family? I find this a very sad and unbelievable situation that is going on in Japan's royal family for this is not the dark ages here. Are or is everyone so unwilling to do something now before it is to late? Why?

No, before it comes to that, they are more likely to in sheer desperation appoint a new male emperor from a now civilian branch of the family.
Even cloning would probably be something some conservatives will consider seriously!

That will of course lead to a lot of controversy. But the person in question will no doubt try and do his duty. There cannot be a question of refusing to take on this responsibility. That would be un-Japanese so to speak.
But we will have someone who has not been prepared for the job, someone whose family may be anything but keen on suddenly becoming royal.
In other words: We may have a very unhappy imperial family.
An emperor (and his family) who unless he has loads of self confidence may more or less constantly be on the verge of committing seppuku, because he feels he simply isn't worthy and simply cannot live up to the expectations. Psychologically speaking Japan is an endlessly fascinating society!

And will at even be acceptable, in a very hierarchical society as the Japanese to have an emperor who during most of his life was subservient to quite a few other ordinary people? I'm here talking about the very conservative. (who are the main obstacle in regards to female succession as well)
In theory at least, the emperor is subservient to no one but his parents in his lifetime.

I could go on...

 

[M. Payton]

**Psychologically speaking Japan is an endlessly fascinating society!** Well that is a very nice way of putting the society of Japan in how they deal with this situation or life in general while the rest of the world far out reaches them in terms of dealing with life it seems to me.

Isn't that seppuku a thing also of the past as that is pretty dramatic to stab one's self to death? This country seems to be going further back into the dark ages as I call it then forward with the times we live in today.....I have always felt so sorry for the crown princess and I have a book somewhere here on her and her reluctance to marry into the family. Who can blame her for to me it is not an honor I would behold or want....Sad what is going on with Mako and her so called engagement also.... yet great reading and learning of another country and how they do things, a good learning experience here. Thank you Muhler for all the updates and info that you have provided.?

 

[Muhler]

Well, I wasn't thinking about a literal seppuku, complete with knife, decapitation and a farewell-poem.
But the suicide-rate is high. Especially if you "fail". Fail in life, fail in your career, fail your obligation as an employee, student or leader - or in rare cases as a protest.
A future, hypothetical, appointed emperor (and not least his family!) may very well feel that he is failing. That he is failing in his duty to Japan - and take the appropriate way out...
Which is why an unprepared relative IMO should not be appointed emperor. Being a royal is demanding enough as it is. Being a monarch is harder. And being unprepared for such a job is orders of magnitudes worse.

BTW I once read a definition of the difference between seppuku and hara-kiri, which I found very handy, and easy to remember:
Seppuku: He committed a ritual and honorable suicide.
Hara-kiri: He sliced his belly open.

 

[M. Payton]

Oh I remember a movie some time ago, in fact a long time ago with this seppuku being shown, it had someone standing there besides the man with a knife pointed at his belly while he was kneeling on a rug in front of a *bowl* I think........the man standing had a huge sword ready at hand.....made me interested in how this was done and why. If the society of Japan is having a big suicide problem don't you think that the medical community would take an interest and work with people to understand their issues rather then dying and killing oneself? Death to me in permanent on this earth as we do not know that goes on after.......so why not take care of oneself now and do the best one can rather then being do dramatic? I believe if someone is of that mindset over life's issues that shows a weak and insecure person........that is just me only here and my opinion. Being a royal is even with all the perks and money or whatever is one damn hard job......I could not do it ever......I like my freedom for it is *priceless* to me. That is why I do not understand women marrying into royal families yet some have done a fabulous job of being a royal princess. Besides it would hurt terribly to stab the belly... and I do not like pain ever.........?

 

[Muhler]

I wouldn't like that option either!
But that's not how it works in Japan.

Traditionally suicide is the answer to failure. Living on when you have failed will to many seem pointless.
Take a student who doesn't score as high grades as he aimed for. He is now a failure. He has let down himself, for not trying hard enough. He has let down his parents. His family. His university. Even, when taking it to the extreme, (in nationalistic conservative mindset) letting down Japan.
He has lost face. He has made his parents, to whom he is in debt (the concept of giri), feel ashamed.
Should he live on with that shame? Or should he take an honorable way out and wash the shame away?
Of course most Japanese learn to live with that failure, even though it sticks in their back of their mind for life. But enough choose suicide for it to be a problem.

The concept of seppuku was what sold Christianity to considerable segments of the domineering samurai classes back in the 1500's.
Jesus abandoned all material goods, wealth, property, status, rank, family, children - that was the ultimate self-sacrifice.
That he committed seppuku, by choosing death to avoid humiliation and as an atonement on behalf of mankind, appealed to samurais.
The thing about love thy neighbor and forgiveness and caring for the poor, certainly didn't! That appealed to the lower classes, but certainly not the samurais! But living a life of total self-sacrifice and total devotion to the ultimate daimyo; God, and ending his life in an honorable death, that was a seller!
I have of course simplified the whole thing a little bit, but that was pretty much the essence boiled down to basics.

 

[Tatiana Maria]

On July 17th, the Constitutional Democratic Party of Japan (CDP) decided to setup a committee to discuss stable inheritance, including female branches. Banri Kaieda will chair the committee; its first meeting is on the 20th.

Source: Jiji

Well, well, well...

It's a start. Albeit on a party level. I guess PM Abe's government don't see any need for such a committee?

Not surprising from the Constitutional Democratic Party, but it could be interesting to see how much news interest their committee will create.

Agreed, it is doubtful that Prime Minister Abe's government will ever set up a committee to discuss imperial inheritance. As an individual, Mr. Abe might have aimed at bringing in a boy from a former branch family to be the spare in case Hisahito does not have sons, but as Prime Minister, he is focused more on avoiding the topics of female succession and imperial branches, and a government committee would unavoidably give politicians who support female succession an opportunity to debate it.

 

[M. Payton]

I wouldn't like that option either!
But that's not how it works in Japan.

Traditionally suicide is the answer to failure. Living on when you have failed will to many seem pointless.
Take a student who doesn't score as high grades as he aimed for. He is now a failure. He has let down himself, for not trying hard enough. He has let down his parents. His family. His university. Even, when taking it to the extreme, (in nationalistic conservative mindset) letting down Japan.
He has lost face. He has made his parents, to whom he is in debt (the concept of giri), feel ashamed.
Should he live on with that shame? Or should he take an honorable way out and wash the shame away?
Of course most Japanese learn to live with that failure, even though it sticks in their back of their mind for life. But enough choose suicide for it to be a problem.

The concept of seppuku was what sold Christianity to considerable segments of the domineering samurai classes back in the 1500's.
Jesus abandoned all material goods, wealth, property, status, rank, family, children - that was the ultimate self-sacrifice.
That he committed seppuku, by choosing death to avoid humiliation and as an atonement on behalf of mankind, appealed to samurais.
The thing about love thy neighbor and forgiveness and caring for the poor, certainly didn't! That appealed to the lower classes, but certainly not the samurais! But living a life of total self-sacrifice and total devotion to the ultimate daimyo; God, and ending his life in an honorable death, that was a seller!
I have of course simplified the whole thing a little bit, but that was pretty much the essence boiled down to basics.

So here we have this *idea* of the Traditionally mined Japanese people that that suicide is okay in a sense if one fails at life or in a sense in all things. So how does a young child growing up develop these ideas that everything must be perfect for if not perfect then your a failure and suicide is the answer? I hope I am making sense here and as you know I am no intellect, the most unintellect person on earth is me yet I am willing to learn. Is this the norm in Japanese culture to think like this or behave the same? I can understand if this was done in the *dark ages of time* yet this is today in a world where everything is out in the open and all can see so why would a country still be seen as obeying customs of the *dark ages of time*? People as a whole in general grow and develop through time with all that is around them and even into marrying a different culture as we see all the time.....so why this idea of *failure* is so important that it can create one's death?


Now this next paragraph has me really confused here......that is not the Jesus I grew up with nor remember so is this a different Jesus in their religion from what I know? Not one single person anywhere lives a life of total self-sacrifice on this earth that I know of....and living one's life totally devoted to God also.....this is not done ever from all that I see, not even the Pope does that! So who and why are these beliefs so prevalent in a society that one is a total failure if not always doing things the way society or God wants them to be done? As you say a very fascinating society and might I add confusing to me as an outsider......well since I have always been an outsider things in life in general do get confusing at times....Thank you so much Muhler for the lovely conversation and I totally enjoyed it and all you offer here....

 

[Furienna]

So here we have this *idea* of the Traditionally mined Japanese people that that suicide is okay in a sense if one fails at life or in a sense in all things. So how does a young child growing up develop these ideas that everything must be perfect for if not perfect then your a failure and suicide is the answer? I hope I am making sense here and as you know I am no intellect, the most unintellect person on earth is me yet I am willing to learn. Is this the norm in Japanese culture to think like this or behave the same? I can understand if this was done in the *dark ages of time* yet this is today in a world where everything is out in the open and all can see so why would a country still be seen as obeying customs of the *dark ages of time*? People as a whole in general grow and develop through time with all that is around them and even into marrying a different culture as we see all the time.....so why this idea of *failure* is so important that it can create one's death?

It seems to me that the Japanese are a conservative people, who still hang on to many old traditions and values. So I don't find the suicide rate in Japan for personal failure that strange at all, even though I agree that it seems extreme from a Western point of view.

Now this next paragraph has me really confused here......that is not the Jesus I grew up with nor remember so is this a different Jesus in their religion from what I know? Not one single person anywhere lives a life of total self-sacrifice on this earth that I know of....and living one's life totally devoted to God also.....this is not done ever from all that I see, not even the Pope does that! So who and why are these beliefs so prevalent in a society that one is a total failure if not always doing things the way society or God wants them to be done? As you say a very fascinating society and might I add confusing to me as an outsider......well since I have always been an outsider things in life in general do get confusing at times....Thank you so much Muhler for the lovely conversation and I totally enjoyed it and all you offer here....

Actually, I believe that this different interpretation of Jesus makes sense from an old samurai point of view. Even though I guess that most Christians wouldn't see Jesus being crucified as a suicide (which was forbidden within Christianity for centuries anyway).

 

[Muhler]

You ask good questions, Payton ?

The short answer to your first question is: I don't know.
I don't know how prevalent the mindset of atonement by suicide is in Japan today. I does however appeal very much to the nationalists, very much represented by the current government.
It was very much a domineering trait in the Japanese society until certainly 1945. In fact it was cultivated by especially the militant governments between 1906 and 1945.
Simplified you can say that the start of the more fanatical Japanese nationalism began with the Japanese victory over Russia in 1906. That gave Japan a sense of immense of confidence and eventually overconfidence with the disastrous results we all know...
That resulted in an extreme interpretation of the Japanese samurai code of Bushido.
You must succeed, or die trying! And if you fail you lose face and then it's better you die than keep on living with that disgrace. In fact you restore your honor by dying. - Which is of course why prisoners of war, and civilians too for that matter were treated to awfully! They were worthless. They were without honor. They had failed. And totally incomprehensible; they chose to live on what that shame! What can possible be worse?!?
That was a definition of Bushido that came on later. Because Japan actually treated (western) prisoners of war honorably and totally within the accepted norms of the time, up until and including WWI.
Later on during the 20's and especially when Japan basically became a military authoritarian system in the 30's Bushido became more and more a death-cult IMO. Akin to Islamists nowadays.
But the remnants of Bushido still exist. As late as the 1970's it still happened that lone Japanese soldiers were found. They had never surrendered but stayed on their post for decades. That was the ultimate devotion to duty, fully in accordance with the Bushido spirit. And as a consequence, they were honored and treated with respect when returning to Japan. (Albeit not too officially, but certainly unofficially!) And they quietly received help, more help than they would otherwise receive.
In contrast, also a late as the 1970, perhaps even today, soldiers who had been captured alive, even when wounded, or even worse, who had surrendered were very much looked down upon. It was not something you talked about!
And they themselves felt ashamed. Something that has only begun to change in recent years.

Okay, let's have a look at Jesus.
Well, it really no surprise that you don't recognize the Japanese, or more correctly the samurai-Jesus.
As with every religion you embrace what appeals to you and your lifestyle.
Japanese peasants may find the notion of charity and tolerance appealing. But try tell a samurai to turn the other cheek!
So they naturally embraced the devotion of Jesus and his death and self sacrifice. And less the more pacifist bits of his teaching.

In that respect they were little different from Europeans of the same period.
If you belonged to the fighting classes, you embraced the warrior saints and probably the Virgin Mary, while Jesus was kept a bit in the background.
If you belonged to the praying classes, it was perhaps more the martyrs (and Virgin Mary) that appealed to you.
If you belonged to the ruling classes you advocated Jesus teachings about giving the emperor his due, live an ascetic life and be rewarded in Heaven and first and foremost turn the other cheek - for everybody else that is...
If you were poor, the notion about charity and love thy neighbor (show solidarity) and being rewarded for your life in poverty in the afterlife appealed to you. Not to mention the Virgin Mary, who in many ways was a kind of mother/fertility/love goddess at the time.

In short: Religions adapt to circumstances, just look at Christmas.
Anyway, most people read the Bible in the same way the Devil does: Only what suits them...

 

[M. Payton]

It seems to me that the Japanese are a conservative people, who still hang on to many old traditions and values. So I don't find the suicide rate in Japan for personal failure that strange at all, even though I agree that it seems extreme from a Western point of view.


Actually, I believe that this different interpretation of Jesus makes sense from an old samurai point of view. Even though I guess that most Christians wouldn't see Jesus being crucified as a suicide (which was forbidden within Christianity for centuries anyway).

Yes, I would think that suicide in any country would be the very extreme of handling any issue in life for that is the very end of life as we know it here on earth. I understand that the Japanese are very conservative with strong old traditions yet no traditions regardless of how old should be upheld to the point that failure brings one to the point of suicide ever....that to me is very cruel. All life is very precious, each moment and each day so taking that for granted is beyond me that any tradition would call for suicide.

Being a strong Christian and I do not preach my faith as I believe that for each of us our faith is just that...ours and private. So I do not believe that Jesus was ever crucified as it is said and whether that is true or not as it is stories made by men time long past that it was Pontius Pilate that ordered the death of Jesus. So that is not suicide at all. Suicide is a very delicate issue for many to even talk about......and I guess from my upbringing that is something that one who believes in Jesus does not do ever.....yet I do understand that a person can be pushed by their own emotional upheavals in life to get to the brink of doing such. For the Japanese in this day and age with all and everything on the internet to see and read I wonder how they can even contemplate such an act of doing this. It just befuddles my mind and maybe that is just a way for me to learn more about the way the Japanese and the royal family live in a very controlled environment.