Succession and Membership Issues

[Kasumi]

Originally Posted by Nice Nofret

Why does 'marrying comoners' by females reduces the imperial blood, and not when males do marry commoners?...

Try to lurk some info about Y-chromosome.
And yes, their traditions may seem weird to the Western people, still the Japanese have their right to maintain their monarchy according their own traditions.

[KittyAtlanta]

Their traditions don't seem weird to me (a Western people). It is quite easy to see that when an Imperial woman marries a commoner, in a few generations of unions with non-imperial spouses, there will be such dilution of "blood" that only a trace of Imperial stock will remain.

[camelot23ca]

Originally Posted by KittyAtlanta

Their traditions don't seem weird to me (a Western people). It is quite easy to see that when an Imperial woman marries a commoner, in a few generations of unions with non-imperial spouses, there will be such dilution of "blood" that only a trace of Imperial stock will remain.

Is it somehow less easy to see that the same thing is true for an Imperial man who marries a commoner?

[Furienna]

In most cultures, it's the men, who keeps the family line going. And the Japanese, who have managed to keep the same imperial dynasty for two thousand years, are even more traditional about this than what us Europeans are.

[Ceallach]

sucession brought up again.

Japan's troubled royals put up a brave front | The Japan Times Online

[Kasumi]

Husbands of royals may get Imperial status in Japan
The government will likely grant Imperial status to commoner husbands of female Imperial family members who lead their own family branch so they can engage in official duties similar to those of Imperial family members, according to government sources.
The change would, for the first time in history, pave the way for male commoners to join the Imperial family.
[...]
To expedite the issue, the government will seek opinions on the matter from experts, beginning in February.
The government plans to submit a bill to revise the Imperial House Law to an extraordinary Diet session in autumn.
Article 12 of the Imperial House Law stipulates that if a female of the Imperial family marries a person other than the Emperor or other member of the Imperial family, "she shall lose the status of Imperial family member."
During discussions on the revision of Article 12, some government officials said it is also necessary to revise Article 15, which stipulates, "Any person outside the Imperial family and his or her descendants shall not become a member thereof except in the cases where a female becomes Empress or marries a member of the Imperial family."
The officials said the revision is needed so a male commoner who marries a female Imperial family member can be given Imperial status.

[Grandduchess24]

Such wonderful news but will their imperial blooded wives regain their former royal titles?

[Kasumi]

Originally Posted by Grandduchess24

Such wonderful news but will their imperial blooded wives regain their former royal titles?

Which 'royal titles' in the Imperial family do you mean?

[NGalitzine]

Would the Emperors daughters regain her title as an Imperial Princess or would this change only affect future princesses who marry. It this a step towards allowing female succession by Naruhitos daughter.

[Kasumi]

Originally Posted by NGalitzine

Would the Emperors daughters regain her title as an Imperial Princess or would this change only affect future princesses who marry. It this a step towards allowing female succession by Naruhitos daughter.

Have you read the article above? I've posted a link.

[NGalitzine]

Originally Posted by Kasumi

Have you read the article above? I've posted a link.

Yes, but I do not see that it is only going forward that the change would apply to a Princesses husband or if they might return the current Emperors daughter to the status of Princess. I also did not see where it might recognize female succession if the Emperor has no sons which is why I asked if this was perhaps a suggestion of future changes that might allow for Aiko to become Empress.
Sorry if I missed those details in the article.

[Kasumi]

Originally Posted by NGalitzine

... if this was perhaps a suggestion of future changes that might allow for Aiko to become Empress...

AFAIK, it is unlikely for Princess Toshi-no-miya Aiko to become Empress, according to national pull.
The main controversy against new amendment bill is that most of Japanese are OK with a thought of female reigning Empress (there were some Empresses in history of Japan). But the father of the father of the father of... new Emperor or Empress (Aiko's children) must be the first Tenno (Emperor).

In Japansese Imperial system, paternal gene (not maternal gene) is essential and vital.

This opinion may seem strange. Still in the past this rule had been kept for 125 generations of Tenno system.
Of course, the first several generations of the Emperors were mythical. And the period when it was the Emperor who was in the center of the national power had finished about 1000 years ago actually.

They seem to believe that Tenno has the role of not only the symbol of the state, but also the inheritance of the nation's traditional culture.

The majority of Japanese agree with female reigning monarch. However they don't agree with the female line succession.

[Esmerelda]

Then what's the point of giving Imperial status to Princess' husbands? If Prince Hisahito becomes Emperor and does not have sons/children, what happens then? Would his daughters or sisters then come before Princess Aiko or vice versa? Unless they set up female branches of the Imperial family without succession rights. It would be simpler to allow the Princesses to continue working for the Imperial family after their marriage but for their commoner husbands and children to have a normal life, like Princess Anne in the UK(although her children are in line to the throne).
.

[Iluvbertie]

What are the chances of Aiko and Hisahito being forced to marry - regardless of which one becomes the ruler their children would then satisfy the requirements of male line descent from the earliest emperors but also keep the line from Aiko's father?

It wouldn't be the first such marriage in history - where a monarch married the senior claimant of the opposition e.g. Henry VII and Elizabeth of York and going further back Darius I marrying Atossa (daughter of Cyrus the Great). I am sure there are others.

[Kasumi]

Originally Posted by Esmerelda

Then what's the point of giving Imperial status to Princess' husbands? ...

The male descendants of minor Imperial branches who were deprived rights and titles in 1947 will be reinstalled as Imperial princes.
They are commoners now.
It's wise and it's historically fair.

Originally Posted by Iluvbertie

What are the chances of Aiko and Hisahito being forced to marry...

None. Spouse of the Imperial Prince can't be older than the Prince.

[Charlotte1]

Originally Posted by Iluvbertie

What are the chances of Aiko and Hisahito being forced to marry - regardless of which one becomes the ruler their children would then satisfy the requirements of male line descent from the earliest emperors but also keep the line from Aiko's father?

It wouldn't be the first such marriage in history - where a monarch married the senior claimant of the opposition e.g. Henry VII and Elizabeth of York and going further back Darius I marrying Atossa (daughter of Cyrus the Great). I am sure there are others.

The chances are zero! Aiko's lineage is not important Hisahito's is since his in a continuation of the male line. (Plus the Japanese royals have evolved with the modern era and the current male princes have all made love matches)

There needs to be some reform on the succession for purely practical reasons, if all the females marry out that leaves a very worked Emperor to carry out all the duties. Currently there are a number of royal to do the work.

The change in succession is not to make it possible in the future to have a female Emperor ( unless Hisahito only has daughters!) but rather so that there are other royals around to support the Emperor.

For the princesses to have their own family line is quite ground breaking in Japanese society as no other females can do that. Japan has a family registry all family members are registered with the father's name. So a female is first on her father's registry and when she marries she goes onto her husbands
Only widows and divorcees head their own families. In the future so will Japanese princesses. ( a side note, because of this family registry Japan does not allow for joint custody of a child of divorce. A child cannot be on 2 registries so has to live full-time with one parent.)

[Kasumi]

Originally Posted by Charlotte1

...Plus the Japanese royals have evolved with the modern era and the current male princes have all made love matches...

I'd like to add that the Hitachis, the Takamados and the Mikasa Tomohitos princely couples were not actually 'love matches', but politically wise matches of the Imperial family with the most influential business and political clans in Japan.
Love and respect have come after the marriage.

[Iluvbertie]

So Hisahito has to make a match with a younger woman which means he can't love someone older them him. Had that law been in place in Britain last year William and Kate wouldn't have been allowed to marry as she is older than he is, same with Charles and Camilla, Andrew and Sarah.

[Kasumi]

Originally Posted by Iluvbertie

...Had that law been in place in Britain last year William and Kate wouldn't have been allowed to marry as she is older than he is, same with Charles and Camilla, Andrew and Sarah.

When in Rome, darling...
Shikata ga nai
The Japanese have the right to live their own way, haven't they?
The tradition of monarchy in Japan is the oldest in the world. And it's unbreakable male line.

[Charlotte1]

Originally Posted by Kasumi

I'd like to add that the Hitachis, the Takamados and the Mikasa Tomohitos princely couples were not actually 'love matches', but politically wise matches of the Imperial family with the most influential business and political clans in Japan.
Love and respect have come after the marriage.

Well one also argue that the Aikihito and Michiko marriage wasn't a love match either if you use that criteria since her family were one of the wealthiest in Japan. But apparently despite her commoner status it's been generally accepted that theirs was a love marriage.

The Hitachi marriage was an arranged marriage as Princess Hitachi came from a disenfranchised noble family. The Tomohitos I would give the benefit of the doubt, yes a very wealthy family ( like Michiko's) but we don't know how the couple felt about each other. The Takamados were very 'modern' if you like so an arranged marriage, maybe Princess Takamado was in her early 30s but again we don't really know what the couple felt for one another.

Where does the notion that Hisahito have to marry someone much younger than him come from. Using the Charles and Camilla, Andrew and Sarah examples, it's not as if those are large age gaps! Princess Takamado was older than her husband, they went on to have 3 children ( all girls!). Prince Hitachi married a younger woman they are childless, Emperor Hirohito's brothers Chichibu and Takamatsu married much younger women ( both princesses were 18 at the time of their marriage) and those couples were childless as well. A younger bride doesn't guarantee children.