Succession and Membership Issues

[Elspeth]

But neither Elizabeth II, Beatrix and Margarethe II had any brothers.

Nor does Aiko.

[Jo of Palatine]

Originally Posted by furienna

You say a woman wouldn't be a worse monarch than a man. But is then the oldest sibling always a better monarch than his or her younger siblings? No. The whole concept of succession is based on tradition. When it comes to equality, being the second-born shouldn't keep you away from a thrown more than what being a woman would. But still, no one questions that rule. Succession can't be based on equality. It should be based on traditions, like the royal and imperial houses themselves are.

Furienna, IMHO you bringan important point here into the discussion but I see it differently. We're talking about democracies here with a monarch as head of state. The position of the monarch is surely a traditional role, but it is a relic from different, absolutistic or oligarchic times when the people were actually reigned by the monarch (absolutistic) or by the monarch plus his nobles (oligarchic). Anyway, a relic from a time when not each adult citizen had a right to vote and decide thus on the way the country is run.

In some countries this transfer to democrazy went smoothly, so the monarchy is still intact. In others it came to a revolution (France) or the monarch lost a war (Germany, Austria etc. after WWI). But in all cases we're talking about a democracy with equal rights for man and women.

For me it is absolutely clear that monarchies can only survive if they adapt to the legal situation of their country. The idea of democracy and equality of men and women are so closely interwoven that IMHO there can't be a future for a system that is supported by one but does not accept the other. So if you want to keep the monarchistic system as the way to represent the state, you must make sure that the majority of people see the reflections of their situation in the situation on the very top of their society. Otherwise: why support it? Why not vote for the system to end? In the end it's the will of the people if they want to keep their monarchs or not.

The current way to adopt the successions laws to the common laws of a country only mirrors the way common law has changed before. If a country's people and their government really believe in equality, they must change the succession. No matter what tradition dictates as tradition equally says that not the people but the king ruleth... And who wants that situation back?

[Furienna]

Originally Posted by Elspeth

Nor does Aiko.

But now she has a male cousin. Margarethe II had male cousins too, but somehow, prince Knud and his sons were desprived of their rights to the throne in favor of Margarethe.

Jo of Palatine: Is it then democratic to favor an older sibling over a younger one? Also, I don't think having different roles for men and women is undemocratic anyhow.

[Jo of Palatine]

Originally Posted by Furienna

Jo of Palatine: Is it then democratic to favor an older sibling over a younger one? Also, I don't think having different roles for men and women is undemocratic anyhow.

Older sibling vs. younger: the common rules of democracy know quite some events when age plays a role and normally the older is favoured over the younger. Be it protection laws for elderly workers or the special role of "Alterspräsident" in a parliament, when the eldest member of the new parliament is made president in order to preside over the formation of the new presidency of the parliament.... But you are right, it is difficult to explain why the eldest child and not one of them. But who should choose which one to take? The current monarch? I guess it's acceptable that you make rules of selection beforehand and then let nature take it's way - especially in times like these when the gender of a child can be selected en route of getting pregnant. It makes sense then to take the eldest and not Nr. 2 eg, because it's more probable to have a first child then a second. I for one only have one child....

As for different roles. Most things get their own way naturally: there are more men willing to work tough jobs. More women are willing to get into the social services. But to make rules our of the fact that "most " women favour this and "most" men favour this is wrong, IMHO. You create injustice because there are women who want to do a "men's job" and vice versa.

[mandyy]

No bill on imperial succession law to go to Diet next year: Koizumi

(Kyodo) _ Prime Minister Junichiro Koizumi said Wednesday it is necessary to spend sufficient time debating whether to revise Japan's imperial succession law and no bill to amend the law should be submitted to the Diet early next year.......
http://asia.news.yahoo.com/060906/kyodo/d8jv99d80.html

[Daniela]

OK, now they have a boy.

But, what will happen when all the uncles, cousins, brothers of curent Emperor will be gone and all the girls from Imperial family will be turned into commoners, I mean he and his parents will be the only members of Imperial family. And when he will start his family, what is going to happen if he will have only daughters?

Of course for now the problem is postponed, but I'm conviced that even the IHA will have to adapt to the time's and some corections will have to be made into the succesion rules!

P.S.: All the best to Princess Kiko and her baby boy!


Daniela

[magnik]

I have a question:
Today I heard on TV how one Japanese said thet after now little prince must be acknowledge as a imperial prince or prince of blood and after that he could inherit the throne.
I don't know is it true or not. Maybe someone know anything about that?

[CrownPrinceLorenzo]

Originally Posted by magnik

I have a question:
Today I heard on TV how one Japanese said thet after now little prince must be acknowledge as a imperial prince or prince of blood and after that he could inherit the throne.
I don't know is it true or not. Maybe someone know anything about that?

That doesn't make sense... the boy is born imperial already...

[Al_bina]

If any other royal or imperial house needs a male heir, it should invite Japanese Imperial Household Agency. This Agency is quite effective in enforcement of such matters.

[Elspeth]

Article from the BBC saying that this birth won't resolve the issue of the succession, although it'll put it off for a while:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/asia-pacific/5320224.stm

[Jo of Palatine]

I wonder what the government and the IHA would do if prince Naruhito and princess Masako were deciding that they are looking for a woman willing to carry a baby for Naruhito and Masako (via IVF) and adopting the child after making sure it's a boy. Biological this boy would be Naruhito's child but legally it probably wouldn't according to modern laws in Japan - even though it's a kind of concubine situation....

[magnik]

Originally Posted by Al_bina

If any other royal or imperial house needs a male heir, it should invite Japanese Imperial Household Agency. This Agency is quite effective in enforcement of such matters.

Yes, if there wouldn't be no heir/ess. In more royal courts both, girls and boys can inherit the throne. In Eourope only boys can inherit the throne in Luxembourg and Liechtenstein.

[CrownPrinceLorenzo]

Originally Posted by magnik

Yes, if there wouldn't be no heir/ess. In more royal courts both, girls and boys can inherit the throne. In Eourope only boys can inherit the throne in Luxembourg and Liechtenstein.

Girls can inherit the Luxembourg throne.

[magnik]

Originally Posted by CrownPrinceLorenzo

Girls can inherit the Luxembourg throne.

But, Alexandra isn't on the line of succession.
http://members.fortunecity.com/succe...luxemburg.html
Of course if if the present line went extint, the line of succession go to the heirs-male one of the sisters of the late GDss Charlotte - pss Sophie, Dss of Saxony.
http://www.heraldica.org/topics/royalty/nassau.htm

[CrownPrinceLorenzo]

Originally Posted by magnik

But, Alexandra isn't on the line of succession.
http://members.fortunecity.com/succe...luxemburg.html
Of course if if the present line went extint, the line of succession go to the heirs-male one of the sisters of the late GDss Charlotte - pss Sophie, Dss of Saxony.
http://www.heraldica.org/topics/royalty/nassau.htm

That's because Luxembourg is Semi-Salic. Girls can only inherit the throne when there are no males in the family. None. Grand Duchess Charlotte was a girl, was she not?

[monica17]

Originally Posted by Daniela

OK, now they have a boy.

But, what will happen when all the uncles, cousins, brothers of curent Emperor will be gone and all the girls from Imperial family will be turned into commoners, I mean he and his parents will be the only members of Imperial family. And when he will start his family, what is going to happen if he will have only daughters?

Of course for now the problem is postponed, but I'm conviced that even the IHA will have to adapt to the time's and some corections will have to be made into the succesion rules!

P.S.: All the best to Princess Kiko and her baby boy!
Daniela

Yes, that would be the case. All the young generation (25 yrs. old and below) of the Imperial Family are females, except for the new prince. Since they have no one to marry within the family, it's either they get married to commoners and become commoners, or they can choose to remain single and imperial. After this new prince, there is a dearth of Imperial Family members in the next generation if women are to be excluded.

That's why, IMHO, the succession reform is so crucial, and not only because of gender equality. I'm not only for letting females ascend to the throne but for them to remain in the family; after all, it's their heritage.

[Amina]

Originally Posted by Moonlightrhapsody

They're just delaying the inevitable. Sooner or later down the road, they'll come across the same dilemma. Their birth rate is just not as high to ensure that a male would be born.

I agree with you - this crises will happen again. The present emperor had two boys - his daughters became commoners on marrying out. The Imperial family is pretty small as it is. They really need to look at reforming the whole system including allowing princesses of the Imperial household to stay within the family once they are married.

Originally Posted by Elspeth

They have the technology to pretty much guarantee a male child if they really need to. That technology exists now - in 20 to 30 years' time, it'll be routine if they need it.

I agree with you that yes they have the technology but even with sex selection it isn't a guarantee. PKiko could easily have ended up with a baby girl and IVF does not have a high success rate (from what i have read). Often couples have to go through several treatments before conceiving. But yes perhaps in 20/30 years time the success rate will be nearly 100%.

I hope they bring in reforms the sooner, the better.

[mandyy]

Abe hints at reviewing panel's conclusion on reigning empresses

(Kyodo) _ Chief Cabinet Secretary Shinzo Abe hinted Friday at the possibility of reviewing an expert panel's recommendation that the descendants of female monarchs ascend the imperial throne as a way to establish a stable imperial succession. "It's natural to be cautious about changing the tradition of the male line," Abe said during the recording of a program for the Fuji Television Network, expressing his reluctance at the idea of female-line succession -- when the Chrysanthemum Throne passes to descendants born to men who do not have an emperor on their father's side....
http://asia.news.yahoo.com/060915/kyodo/d8k572go0.html

[Sister Morphine]

Originally Posted by monica17

Yes, that would be the case. All the young generation (25 yrs. old and below) of the Imperial Family are females, except for the new prince. Since they have no one to marry within the family, it's either they get married to commoners and become commoners, or they can choose to remain single and imperial. After this new prince, there is a dearth of Imperial Family members in the next generation if women are to be excluded.

That's why, IMHO, the succession reform is so crucial, and not only because of gender equality. I'm not only for letting females ascend to the throne but for them to remain in the family; after all, it's their heritage.

I completely agree with this. However, I have a really dumb question. Do they know this and just don't care.....or haven't they figured it out? The IHA have to realize that there just isn't any men, aside from the little prince, left to hang around after the females marry and leave the family. And if they do know, it seems like they aren't in any rush to find some way to resolve it.

[Next Star]

Male descents have always had a stronger claim to the throne than those of female descents even tho it is the 21st century it has not changed well a little bit only for 4 monarchies allow equal rights to the throne (Beligium, Neterlands, Norway, And Sweden). Hopefully Japan someday will change the law and allow eqaul rights making the eldest child of the monarch the heir to the throne regardless of sex.