May 2008: "King, Kaiser, Tsar" by Catrine Clay

[Elspeth]

I've always quite liked the old coot. But he didn't seem to have much success in his interactions with Willy, which is surprising considering that he was considered to be quite the diplomat.

 

[LadyCat]

I guess Alexandra had good reason to hate Prussia (gee thanks Bismark!) and when it came to diplomatic relations with Germany she was probably not the best choice as the wife of the future King of England. I will have to check again to see if they married before or after Bismark decided to grab parts of Denmark as my memory fails me at the moment. I know Vicky and Alice were married and living in Germany at the time but the timeline with regard to Bertie and Alexandra I just can't recall.

Bertie's diplomatic skills were quite well honed, however I think the family connection figures in more prominently here than in most cases. To him, Willy would always be his older sister's little boy, even when that little boy grew to be a man of 40. Perhaps Willy's own personality did nothing to help in that respect as he comes across as quite immature even in adulthood. I can see how Bertie would continue to view his nephew as a naughty child based on what this author (and others) have written about Willy.

Cat

 

[ysbel]

Well even outside of his relations to Willy, Bertie comes off in this chapter as determined not to do anything he doesn't want to do. This may be an unfair judgment but it appears so far, that his lived his life by always taking the easy way out. It's as if he didn't get the concept of master a difficult task because it is worthwhile and this seems to factor in all aspects of his life, with his family, his friends, and his government.

It doesn't make him a very appealing person but I can understand why such a lackadasical person was a godsend to the British government who wanted a hands off King.

 

[Thomas Parkman]

Of course could anybody do anything with Willy. Talk about prize idiots. He must take the cake. First he gave the Austrians carte blanche after the assasination of the Archduke Franz Ferdinand and his wife in Serajevo telling them that Germany would support anything Austria did to Serbia and to top it all launched unlimited submarine warfare and got the United States involved is his little family quarrel when he could well have won the war. Of course his navy mania trying to outbuild the British navy was a major curse and monuumental act of stupidity as well. Cheers.

 

[GlitteringTiaras]

Chapter 1-Epilogue

Welcome to today's discussion of the book King, Kaiser, Tsar. Here are a few notes from this week's chapters:

George Inherits the Throne:

• The death of his father couldn't have come at a worst time. A political shift (Parliament and reforms in the House of Lords) was happening as well as the unusual partnership of advisors to the King, Lord Stamfordham (a raging Tory) and Francis Knollys (Mr. Liberal). Georgie was in the middle and eventually sided (if that is the proper word to use) with Lord Stamfordham.
• Stamfordham "...advised resistance to Asquith's demand's; this would have placed the King in the highly insidious position of appearing to support the Unionists in an election, but his master cleaveds instead to the view of his other private secretary, Lord Knollys, who advised him to surrender to the duly constituted government’s demands." *pg. 335
• Cousin Willy refers to Georgie as a "homebody." Made fun of Georgie when Lord Stamfordham suggested the house should change their name in response to H.G. Wells, which sounded very un-English like, to Windsor. Willy remarked at the name change, "I looked forward to attending a performance of 'The Merry Wives of Saxe-Coburg-Gotha'". In fact the whold family changed their Germanic sounding names to extremely British sounding names: Teck became the Cambridges, Battenbergs to Mountbattens, and so forth. Whispers around the nation suggested that the King and his family were very pro-German
• "I maybe uninspiring, but I will damned if I am an alien" Georgie in repsonse to his abilites as King, HG Wells as well as the anti-German sentiments running wild throughout England and Europe.
• Other issues faced during Georgie's reign: The Parliament Act of 1911. Would depriove the Lords of their veto and control finance, limiting their power over other Bills to delay their passage for two years.
• More reforms followed: The old charitst demand of payments to members was carried and with a salary of 400 pundsWC men could now afford to sit on Paliament The Osbourne Judgement was reversed in which trade unions could use funds to support Parliamentary candidates. The National Insurance Act of 1911 was based on and contributed by employers, the state, and employees. All of these reforms and changes helped the monarchy in some odd was and moved England into a new age. If Russia did something similar along the lines of England perhaps Nicky and the future of Russia itself would have been different.
• "The Irish Problem" and solutions. Irish Home Rule Bill.
• The Wedding, May 24, and the last time the three cousins would ever see each other.

Three Cousins go to War: Key page, 314-15,

• Road to WWI. With the threat of Germany looming Britain was unsure of an alliance with France or Germany. France and Britain were ancient rivals, In 1906, Balfour’s conservative gov't had fallen and new Foreign Secretary, Sir Edward Grey was now at the helm. Helm a Liberal, looked upon an entente with France as a settlement of past differences than as an permanent alliance. He constantly told the French that the British gov't could not accept a permanent alliance and neither could Parliament.
• Triple Entente: Consisted of Britain, France and Russia to counterbalance teh Triple Alliance of Germany, Austria-Hungary, and Italy. Sir Edward Grey hated the phrase, triple Entente, but was eventually impressed with the convention and resolutions with Russia and France thus fwould led to a promise of future cooperation.
• Anglo-German Rivalry. Germany had the land power and Germany could be a threat as well to the British Naval power. Admiral Alfred von Tirpitz convinced the Kaiser's gov't that if Germany built a large navy it could make its diplomatic weight felt and safeguard its colonies in Africa and the South Pacific. Sir John Fisher heard about Germany’s needs to build a large navy. He argued that Britain needed to reorganize and rebuild its naval power. Fisher believed that the British naval power should concentrate itself in the North Sea to meet Germany's threat. Finally a naval base was established at Scapa Flow in he Orkney Islands. From here they could intercept any German fleet trying to get out of the North Sea and the English Channel. Sir John Fisher scrapped together out-moded naval vessals and secretly planned the Dreadnought. The Dreadnought was the prototype of the 20th century battleship that dominated the seas until WWII. It has 10 twelve inch guns with twice as much firing power. Stream turbines improved speed, and could be adapted to ue oil instead of coal. In 1910, there were five Dreads by 1914 there were 18.
• August 4, 1914 the day the WWI began.
• The fighting fronts. The main thrust of German attack was still towards Paris in the accordance to the Schieffen Plan. At the Battle of Maine, the allied forces predominantly the French under General Joffre, held firm. In the second week of September, the German onslaught was either held back or pushed back. Frustrated the German army moved West towards the Channel and captured the Belgian ports of Zeebrugge and Ostend. After heavy fighting as what has come to known as the Battle of Ypres in October-November 1914 the British managed to halt the German advance. Half of the British army was destroyed, but a small part of Belgium was saved as was the French ports of Dunkirk, Calais, and Boulogne. With the British and French fleets seeking to force their way through the Dardanelles straits, they withdrew because of the losses at the time when Turkish defenders were ready to give in., The Allies decided to set up a land invasion instead.
• Using all the resources fo modern warfare airplanes, subs, radio communications and land craft. By the time the British and Australian, and New Zealand toops landed on the beaches of Gallipolu peninsula on April 1915, the Turks had fortified it very well. The Allied forces found it impossible to storm the hilltop positions. Heavy fighting in Poland prevented the Russian armies from lending their support. Clinging to the beachead for months the Alllied forces were forced back in December 1915... essentially they evacuted Gallipoli. 55,000 men were lost in a campaign that was opposed by the French and COnservative British military leaders.
• Battle of Somme one of the dealiest battles in Briish military history. As 100,000 British troops stormed German fortificatiosn in the battle, 20,000 men died and 40,000 wounded. Many were "shell shocked". Although the fighting continued through the summer and assisted by the French in Verdun further East it ultimately cost the British army 400,00 casualties without a decisive change in battle lines.
• Battle of Jutland. The greatest naval battle of the war.
• Key page to discuss, 316.

The End:

• Abdication or not in regards to Nicky. Stubborn old fool. page 334-335.
• Lord Stamfordham strongly suggested that Georgie not give asylum to a deposed tyrant. "The general grounds of expediency referred to some protest amoung certain sections of the oublic avout the residence in Britain of an sutocrat like the Tsar. The radical paper Justice had published an article condemning the Tsar and all he sttood for."(339)
• So, he didn't. Nicky's fate was forever sealed. Did Georgie have blood on his hands because of this? No, not in my opinion. pages 338-339.

Epilogue:

• "To what extent could Georgie, Willy, and Nicky -- the King, the Kaiser, and the Tsar -- be said to have contributed to the events which overtook Europe between 1914 and 1918? Did they themselves through their own characters and personalities, and through their relationships to one another, bear some responsibilty and guilt?" Yes.
• Four moments when things might have been different, all connected to Willy: 1888 had Kaiser Friedrich, his Dad, nit died prematurely, 1890, if Bismarck had mangaged to prevail over the malign influence of WIlly's entourage. 1896, if Friedrich von Holstein had mangaged to presuade Chancellor Hohenhole to stand firm against the "personal rule" which Eulenburg and von Bulow were busy instigating. In 1908, the Daily Telegraph Affair during the Eulenburg-Harden trials when the Reichstag might have managed to force through some real constitutional reform. (357)

Questions:

1. What is your overall opinion of the book King, Kaiser, Tsar? What were the strong points of the book, if any?

2. Do you believe the author was biased?

3. In regards to Clay's research, do you believe she made good use of her sources?

4. Where any of her arguments valid? If so, please explain your position?

5. What were some of the weak points within KKT if any and what should she have done to improve the book?

6. What are thoughts in regards to Kaiser Wilhelm? Is he nuts or simply misunderstood?

7. We all know the ultimate fate for poor Nicky; however, if things were different in Russia do you believe the monarchy would still exist (hence if Alexander's reforms and then some were implemented and if Nicky had a backbone)? Or do you believe it was destined to happen no matter what?

 

[LadyCat]

Finally I get to talk about the war! I have been biting my tongue (fingers) for weeks about the lead up to WWI.

If Austria hadn't needed backup, and Germany hadn't been so quick to offer it, there would have been no war. I'm not sure if Willy was just spoiling for a fight and a chance to show off his new navy, or if he had the misguided idea that he was merely going to Austria's aid. I rather think it is the former. He had the army, he had the navy and he darn well wanted to play with his toys!

Russia had no choice but to move troops to the Austrian border, they had no idea what Austria might do, where they might venture to next. That Willy was so quick to declare war on Russia did come as a surprise though. I can understand him wanting to grab more of France but Russia?

I think his attempt to play both ends against the middle rather childish, telling George he was doing everything in his power to avoid a war with Russia at the same time he declared war on Russia. Then the telegram to Nicky after Germany had declared war on Russia, acting as though no such thing had happened and it was up to Nicky to stop such a declaration.

Was Willy crazy? I'm not sure. I really don't think he was insane, though I do think he was unstable.

And I'll get back to all of you on Nicky and George, and how Nicky and Willy ended up losing their thrones!

Cat

 

[Elspeth]

Well, finally we get to the point where the three cousins are all heads of their respective states and able to deal with each other on the most equal terms we've seen so far. Up till now, Georgie's always been in the shadow of his grandmother and his father, and now he's stuck with seeing his country through a war that wasn't of his making.

Having grown up during the present reign, I'm always surprised to read about how precarious the monarchy was during WWI. Of course, the story of the way Georgie turned his back on Nicky to shore up his own position is a relatively recent one, but it goes to show the pressures he was under. He's referred to by many people (his eldest son being a notable exception!) as a very kind man, and you can see from his letters back and forth to Nicky that he was very fond of his cousin. This must have been a hard decision, but I still don't understand why they didn't at least send ships to evacuate the imperial family and then decide what to do with them when they were safely away from Russia. But hindsight is always easier.

I wonder if Willy was still sufficiently connected to reality during his exile to take a long, hard look at what he'd started and accept responsibility.

 

[Elspeth]

What is your overall opinion of the book King, Kaiser, Tsar? What were the strong points of the book, if any?

I found it interesting; I hadn't read much about Willy before, and this book gave a good overview of the events in Germany during Willy's lifetime. I like how she dealt with overlaps between the three cousins rather than just telling three parallel stories.

In regards to Clay's research, do you believe she made good use of her sources?

I'm not really sure because she left out so many details. But then this book had an immensely wide scope, and it could easily have been three times and long and probably less readable. I got the impression that she was being selective while trying not to leave out anything important. You'd certainly have to read other books in order to get a detailed account of late 19th and early 20th century Europe.

What were some of the weak points within KKT if any and what should she have done to improve the book?

As ysbel said, I think she concentrates on the three protagonists too much and leaves out some important relationships with others. The wives are really just background figures, even Alicky, who bore so much responsibility for the unpopularity of the Tsar later in his reign. I found it a bit frustrating that the author went into so much detail about Willy and his close group of friends, and the homosexuality trials and so on, and much less detail about the Empress and Rasputin.

I think this book was always a tricky proposition, given how much later Georgie inherited than the others. When you have 18 chapters and one of the three of them only becomes King in chapter 16, you know you've got a bit of a problem on your hands. She tried hard to make Georgie seem relevant during Victoria's reign, but the reality is that he really wasn't - the Queen did her own thing with her daughter Beatrice as her secretary, and Bertie and Georgie were rather on the sidelines - in Georgie's case, I think that suited him fine, but it doesn't make the book any easier to put together!

What are thoughts in regards to Kaiser Wilhelm? Is he nuts or simply misunderstood?

I don't think he's at all misunderstood but I don't believe he was insane, although there did seem to be less of a distinction for him between the way things were and the way he wanted them to be than for most people.

We all know the ultimate fate for poor Nicky; however, if things were different in Russia do you believe the monarchy would still exist (hence if Alexander's reforms and then some were implemented and if Nicky had a backbone)? Or do you believe it was destined to happen no matter what?

I think the writing was on the wall for the imperial family already, but Alicky's interference didn't help.

 

[GlitteringTiaras]

Overall, I did enjoy the book; however, I felt that Clay could have analyzed her sources a bit more thoroughly; nonetheless, KKT is a good book. Although, someone must have fallen alseep when checking one particular fact: The Hawaiian King noted on page 40 is not Kalakana. His name is spelled Kalakaua.. His Majesty King David Laamea Kamanakapuu Mahinulani Naloiaehuokalani Lumialani Kalakaua.

KKT is perhaps a good starting point for those interested in reading more about one of these fascinating men, and for me that would be Willy. So as a result, I just ordered a book on Amazon in regards to Prussia.


So, the book King, Kaiser, Tsar: The Three Royal Cousins who led the World to War recieves 4 out of 5 stars.

 

[LadyCat]

I think the author focused on the three cousins and their relationships because they all wore the big "hats" at the crucial time during the war. The contrast between the three rulers really caught my attention and shows that a constitutional monarchy probably would have benefited all three countries/empires. Willy and Nicky ended up losing their thrones, one dead, one in exile. George made it through the war with his monarchy intact, though he had to walk a fine line for that to happen. The name change was part of it and Windsor was a truly inspired choice. I really wish he hadn't left Nicky twisting in the wind. I agree with Elspeth, they should have gotten Nicky and his family out of Russia then decided what to do with them!

The only other book I've read that gave any details of Willy was "Victoria's Daughters" and the focus on Vicky and family was a bit more saturated in that book. Though, like KKT, the author had to cover a lot of ground, Victoria and Albert had quite a few daughters, and a lot of important details were omitted.

All in all KKT was very enjoyable and I learned a lot I had been previously unaware of. I find I have little sympathy for Nicky or Willy. They were misguided, inept and so not suited to the positions they inherited through an accident of birth!

Nicky's decision to take control of his armed forces in the middle of the war is a perfect example of this. What on earth made him think he could run a war?! It was as if he thought he could do no wrong, and he overlooked the fact that if things went badly the blame would fall directly on his shoulders.

Hindsight is indeed 20/20 and in retrospect it is easy to see where all three cousins erred in their judgment. Fortunately, George was not in a position to do much damage, except for the decision regarding Nicky and his family. That I think was his greatest failure, though as a person not a King.

Cat

 

[Attaining Grace]

Finally I get to talk about the war! I have been biting my tongue (fingers) for weeks about the lead up to WWI.

If Austria hadn't needed backup, and Germany hadn't been so quick to offer it, there would have been no war. .. That Willy was so quick to declare war on Russia did come as a surprise though. I can understand him wanting to grab more of France but Russia?


Cat

Hello LadyCat,

I agree with you to some extent although the author states elsewhere that Willy really didn't want war at all and got himself into an impossible situation because he was so tied up with the military. They seemed to be much more warlike than him.

It was very strange the way that he told everyone that he wanted peace but his actions implied the opposite. I think that he probably was rather unstable by this time and unsure what he was doing.

Regards,
Attaining Grace
bookaddiction

 

[Attaining Grace]

I am still a bit behind in my reading so I haven't reached the part where George doesn't save the Imperial Russian family. There are many conflicting opinions about this so it will be interesting to see what Clay thinks.

I am also interested in reading 'Victoria's Daughters'.

Regards,
Attaining Grace (I almost wrote Imperial Grace!)

 

[Elspeth]

I enjoyed "Victoria's Daughters" and I really must read that biography of Vicky, which I've got sitting on my "to read" pile. I hadn't realised quite what a hard life she had after she married and how many of her problems were really her own fault.

 

[LadyCat]

Hello LadyCat,

I agree with you to some extent although the author states elsewhere that Willy really didn't want war at all and got himself into an impossible situation because he was so tied up with the military. They seemed to be much more warlike than him.

It was very strange the way that he told everyone that he wanted peace but his actions implied the opposite. I think that he probably was rather unstable by this time and unsure what he was doing.

Regards,
Attaining Grace
bookaddiction

Willy definitely wanted a navy to rival the British Royal Navy and he was most passionate about seeing it come to fruition given the ever expanding budget he gave the navy. The only reason to have a large navy would be if you planned to use it. I think Clay was mistaken that Willy didn't want a war, however, I don't think he bargained for the war he got. It was a case of "You and me against the world" for Germany and Austria, not a good place to be, especially once the US got involved toward the end when Willy unleashed his subs.

Cat

 

[fearghas]

I began reading this book, got half way throughbut never finished it. The ending of this particular saga depresses me. I would be interested to know if the author has any comments about the repercussions of WWI on what happened later re WWII. I

 

[Avicenna]

I began reading this book, got half way throughbut never finished it. The ending of this particular saga depresses me. I would be interested to know if the author has any comments about the repercussions of WWI on what happened later re WWII. I

Fearghas, I wouldn't give much to the autor's comments concerning political developments. Clay is clearly biased plus she hasn't made her homework.

Examples: German-Danish war and the "iron" chancellor Bismarck.

Let's get started with Bismarck. Clay uses the term "iron" all so often to describe his politics - I'd even say she is obsessed with it. Early on Clay assumes that the speach, in which it was used, was "almost designed to offend Vicky" (P.12). Come on! The term was mentioned in his very first speach as Ministerpräsident. Somehow everyone only recalls this term "iron and blood". What is overseen is that within the very same speach he made an offer of peace towards the liberals. Back then there was a liberal-national movement in Prussia aiming at a German national state. In an interview held in 1890 Bismarck said: "The stateman is like a wanderer in the forest, who knows the direction of his walk, but not the point where he will leave the forest ... I would have preferred any solution with pleasure, which would have lead to an enlargement of Prussia without war towards the unity of Germany. Many roads let to my goal. I had to try one after the other , the most dangerous last, uniformity was not my affair."

Yes, there were the three wars of 1864, 1866 and 1870. Let's look closer at them. 1864: only seldom Clay notes that it was in fact a jointly managed war by Prussia and Austria. Generally she always notes that it was a German-Danish war. Now Germany and Prussia are not the same at this time! The origin of this war was an improvisation, it was hardly to be foreseen. When Friedrich VII of Denmark died November 15, 1863 he had no male heirs. Thus Christian of Glücksburg (maternal line) took over. Early in the fifties it was said in international treaties that the next denish king Christian should take the crown under the same postulations as his predecessor (1850 + 1852 London Protocols). However, the denish national movement demanded that Denmark adamently defends his claim to Schleswig-Holstein when in 1863 Prince Friedrich of Augustenburg claimed it for himself/his family. Thus leading to a breach of the London Protocol by Christian IX when he intended to annex Schleswig-Holstein by signing the November-constitution ... a clear provocation towards German nationalist! All in all it was an unfortunate event , a war of succession like the war of spanish succession, caused by an clearly inexperienced king of Denmark.

Those interested in the 1864 war should look in Christopher Clarks book on Prussian history. Very detailed analyses. Unfortunatly it was published only recently, Clay seems to have missed it.

Back to Bismarck: Clay reduces him always to his "iron" side whereas he was far more complex. His politics can be summarised by 5 points:
1. Renouncement of any territorial enlargement in Europe
2. Suppressing of expansionist movement, in particular all great-German attempts
3. Permanent disillusionment of "unsaved" Germans which were not included in the 1870-German Reich, in particular austrian and baltic Germans
4. Strict Renouncement of participation in the hunt for colonies
5. If necessary, active participation to avoid further wars in Europe

(Please review the Bismarck's Bad Kissinger Diktat of 1877 for further information)

Of all these points the first 3 were stubbornly kept by Bismarck throughout his Chancellorship. 4 he abandoned in the years 1884/1885 - an episode meant to challenge the German-English relationship. Obviously Bismarck felt the need to strengthen his position when the then-Crown-Prince with his English wife would take over. As soon as it was clear that Wilhelm I was living longer than expected he abanded the hunt for colonies. Bismarcks most famous words in 1888 show this change: his map of Africa was within Europe. "Here is Russia and hier is France, and we are in the middle. This is my map of Africa".

And the active participation to avoid further war let to the Berlin Kongress of 1878. Nowhere Clay writes about Bismarck's Peace efforts though! Also nowhere she writes about his social reforms, e.g. the implementation of social security for all classes. No, Clay is determined that poor Vicky was living in a hostile environment. Poor Vicky!! The lady certainly got the wrong preparation for her life in Prussia. Frankly I have troubles reading this book, if only for the wrong picture Clay presents of life in Prussia and of Bismarck. I keep wondering where else she is trying to deceive.

 

[HRH Kerry]

Now that we're at the end...what two men do you know privately celebrate the anniversary of their first meeting? Maybe it was never proven that Willy was homosexual but was it really ever investigated? The writing was on the wall!

 

[Avicenna]

Now that we're at the end...what two men do you know privately celebrate the anniversary of their first meeting? Maybe it was never proven that Willy was homosexual but was it really ever investigated? The writing was on the wall!

Kerry, if you are interested in this topic you might like to read “Kaiser Wilhelm II and the ‘Liebenberg Circle’ ” by Isabel Hull or some of the books on Wilhelm by John C. G. Röhl, in particular "Kaiser Wilhelm II. New Interpretations. The Corfu Papers" Amazon.de: Kaiser Wilhelm II: New Interpretations: The Corfu Papers: J. Rohl: English Books
... though these books deal with the topic in the larger context only.

However, I believe it is a shame that Clay does not stick to facts but implies a lover's affair between Eulenburg and Wilhelm. After all she is not writing fiction, but a factual report which should include no innuendo.

Considering the fact that she namens above mentioned Röhl in her Acknowledgement might explain this lapse. This English Historican was first known in his contribution to the firt German historian's dispute in the 60ies.

Back then the work of the historian Fritz Fischer about the German politics before and during WW1 was discussed, in particular concerning their share in the beginning of the conflict and the military objectives of the empire. Röhl's contribution attacked mainly the group around Wilhelm II. It is through today doubtful, if his thesis that this cirlce of men decided the war 1 1/2 years prior the beginning of war in 1912 is right. The main adversaries of Röhl being members of the national conservative German historians.

Due to this opposition Röhl realigned his focus on the position and influence of Philipp Eulenburg leading to new insight concerning the informal kind of leadership Wilhelm practiced as well as his potential homosexuality and other peculiarities. All in all Röhls work was certainly important and lead to a new perception. Still, Clay should have broadened her horizon by using other sources, too.

 

[AuntyTam]

I'd like to thank everyone who contributed to this most interesting thread! The insightful comments posted here inpired me to read KKT for myself. (Quite a good read, I thought.) I regret that I was not on these forums at the time of this discussion, and look forward to participating with you all in future Book Club threads.

 

[Leslie2006]

True, but I cannot help to add my 21st mentality into the fray. I still think he had some disorder. Under his tutors he was, well, somewhat "normal", but once he was out of their sight he began to act out.

Clearly, all of the mothers -- Minny, Alexandra, and Vicky (though the latter not so much) -- were not a big help when it came to the development of their sons. All of them seem seriously screwed up in one way or another. I would also blame their surroundings as well, social and political. Things were on the verge of change at that time...

Agreed. Minny and Alix especially, I think, knew in a way that they weren't preparing the boys very well for their particular roles; Alix, I suppose, didn't have to in Georgie's case because he was the 'second son', but either way, she smothered all of her children, the boys in particular and was quite selfish with her daughters...just like QV tried to be. With Nicky, his immaturity and lack of education as the heir was not just Minny's doing, but her husband's as well. He prefered his youngest son, Misha, to Nicky, and so intentionally deprived him of a good education as heir to the dynasty; for example, Nicky was not allowed to become involved with anything political until his early twenties, a bit late for the heir. Also, no one expected Alexander III to die when he did, so time was not on Nicky's side either.

 

[Grace Angel]

Albert Victor though, Alexandra's eldest son was even less suited to be king than George V. For someone not raised in the role of heir, George V did a fine job. Also, since monarchy was constituentional in England, there was less to prepare George or Albert Victor for than was the case with Vicky and Minnie, both of whose sons had more political power when they attained the throne. I think George V's mother Alexandra believed that she did her best- not sure about Minnie. Vicky tried as hard as she could, but circumstances were against her.

 

[Leslie2006]

Grace Angel - I totally agree with you about Vicky - she did her best and tried to make the best out of a bad situation. The issue there was Willy's Prussian grandparents, Kaiser Wilhelm I and Kaiserin Augusta. They hated Vicky and completely detested the liberal views their son Frederick shared with his wife, so they went out of their way to turn Willy against Vicky and it worked. In England, Alexandra wanted to keep her sons as little boys - she was incredibly selfish that way - not only for her own personal reasons, but as a way of protecting them from the dangers of adulthood, if you will. Minnie in Russia was the same way with her children. In Minnie's case, there was more of a reason - in the Russian Imperial Family, assassinations were not uncommon; Nicky's grandfather Alexander II was murdered in 1881 by terrorists, his uncle Sergei died the same way in 1905 and there were several similar assassination attempts on his father, Alexander III, during his reign, therfore, Minnie probably saw keeping her offspring, and especially Nicky as the heir, as young children as a kind of protection. Alexandra, I think, was simply being selfish and hypocritical, much like her mother-in-law Queen Victoria was.

 

[Vasillisos Markos]

But I agree with the earlier thread that Alexandra's "mothering" did not have an adverse effect on George because of the constitutional monarchy. Furthermore, although Alexandra was selfish, she also taught all of her children to be humble. There was not an arrogant one in the bunch.

Vicky's liberal leanings could have helped the Kaiser but her in-laws made sure she did not have a direct influence on her son's upbringing. Look at the appalling way he treated her and she had to smuggle her papers out of the country or Wilhelm would have destroyed the lot.

Minny is a different situation. I don't think she babied her children as much as Alexandra but she certainly did not see that being friends with her daughter-in-law might have given her more access to the throne. I believe Nicholas, by his very nature as well as his upbringing, was totally unsuited for the role of autocrat. But perhaps Minny could have been more of an influence when things turned bad if she and Alix had been on better terms.

 

[Zonk]

I am not sure if Minty might have been able to do anything. Alix didn't even listen to her sister, Ella in regards to Rapustin. And she was certainly closer to Alix than Minty.

Vicky certainly wasn't an ideal mother but she certainly didn't deserve to be treated by her son the way she was. But he was even dismissive to his siblings (with the exception of Henry it appears). Definitely she and her husband were viewed as a threat by the inlaws and the powers that be. In an Uncommon Woman, the author mentions that Bismarck after assisting in the alienation of Frederick and Vicky from their son, loses his job as PM, and comes to Vicky for help...declares that she has no influence with her son (or something like that) but doesn't use the moment to crow that Bismarck has in fact, created a monster with Wilhelm.

In regards to Alexandra the Queen, I am sorry. She was certainly selfish as was Victoria in deciding to keep one daughter at home. But that was certainly the norm for the time. At least Beatrice managed to get marry and have children. Its a shame about Toria.

 

[Vasillisos Markos]

No woman was without her flaws but we were discussing these three unique women and the effect they may, or may not, have had on their sons who became rulers. I agree Alexandra was selfish when it came to Toria but I stand by opinion that she at least had children who were not arrogant.

Alix was crippled by shyness and while she did alienate her sister, I have never read that they were especially close and it is true that when it came to Rasputin, Alix listened to no one. But one cannot help but think that perhaps a change in the frosty relationship between Minny and Alix may have helped in other ways. I thought I read somewhere that Minny's mother implored her not to make the same mistake that the mother had made with her own daughter-in-law, Minny's sister-in-law, and to try and be friends with Alix. This never happened, maybe it never could happen.

 

[Zonk]

I certainly respect your opinions but I believe that Alix and Ella were very close. Especially since their mother and sister passed, and all they had were each other (with Victoria and the brother whose name escapes me).