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  #1081  
Old 08-02-2020, 02:51 PM
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Originally Posted by Betsypaige View Post
Or, maybe Harry is just plan angrier at his brother than his father and grandmother...He seems to think William and Kate have been deliberately snobby/etc. to he and Meghan. Honestly, I wouldn’t blame William if he chooses not to let it go, because aside from the fact that H completely twisted his attempt to help him, H and M have hurt Kate...and of course he’s going to be protective of her. I really hope that things can get better between all of them if H visits for Christmas. I’m sure it’s killing Charles to see his sons at odds.
The fact that William attended the Sandringham meeting, speaks volumes, I believe I am correct in saying he was also involved in the decisions around Prince Andrew. He is stepping up, so now has a voice in these discussion, going forward an even bigger voice.

The photograph taken at the Commonwealth service, with Kate staring ahead and William looking at her IMO spoke volumes also.
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  #1082  
Old 08-02-2020, 03:04 PM
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Originally Posted by Madame Verseau View Post
I still see that the Sussexes are getting 100% the blame for Sussexit, and the BRF and the press bear no responsibility. On her wedding veil 53 flowers of the Commonwealth nations were stitched as a symbol of her desire to work for the Crown. The work she has done - Smart Works, the Hubb cookbook, the Oceania tour, the visit to Ireland to name a few - all of that is being dismissed as if they were nothing. Meghan's crime is not sucking up to the British press and grant access to her family's life and the press trashes her for it . Harry and Archie are not direct line heirs. THE BRF should have provided more support; a Botox story gets shot down faster. The equality with Kate and Meghan is terms of married ins. The Sussexes found their ability to call their shots as an alternative for their happiness. In some quarters the Windsors and the press are looking the WORST. Not everyone is buying palace and press spin.
I don't think it's getting the blame, but the Sussexes are responsible for the "Sussexit" - in the end, they were the one who made the decision to leave. Seems pretty normal to me.

I don't understand what do you mean by the "palace spin", tbh. And it's good to remember that the Crown always wins and a war with the press never ends well, because you can never win with them. It's a delicate balance that the BRF worked out with british press and with the Sussexes both sides are responsible for rocking the boat.

As far as Windsors looking bad, I don't see even one example or situation where they look worse than the Sussexes. I'd even go on the other end of the spectrum - if a book that was meant to be pro-Sussexes shows them as whiny, spoiled, self-centered people who don't respect the rules, tradition, the Crown nor the family (from what we've seen of it), then I'd say Sussexes are looking really, really bad.
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  #1083  
Old 08-02-2020, 03:17 PM
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Originally Posted by Madame Verseau View Post
I still see that the Sussexes are getting 100% the blame for Sussexit, and the BRF and the press bear no responsibility. On her wedding veil 53 flowers of the Commonwealth nations were stitched as a symbol of her desire to work for the Crown. The work she has done - Smart Works, the Hubb cookbook, the Oceania tour, the visit to Ireland to name a few - all of that is being dismissed as if they were nothing. Meghan's crime is not sucking up to the British press and grant access to her family's life and the press trashes her for it . Harry and Archie are not direct line heirs. THE BRF should have provided more support; a Botox story gets shot down faster. The equality with Kate and Meghan is terms of married ins. The Sussexes found their ability to call their shots as an alternative for their happiness. In some quarters the Windsors and the press are looking the WORST. Not everyone is buying palace and press spin.
That is why it is all so sad, those early days were really good.
They had so much to offer to the country, the family, everybody.
The press has not been easy, but a great deal of what we have heard from the book, are moans re the family and courtiers. We are in a pandemic, millions of British people might lose their jobs when furlough stops, kids may or may not go back to school in the next few weeks, Exam results are about to be announced for exams that nobody actually sat, future options for university are doubtful, there is a real threat of a second spike and we are reading that Meghan was upset and Harry was angry that her hairdresser who she flew over from Paris could not use the priceless diamond tiara for a wedding trial......... we have more important things to think about..they just do not get it.
  #1084  
Old 08-02-2020, 03:28 PM
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Originally Posted by Moonmaiden23 View Post
Meghan is highly intelligent and worldly. But there was NEVER going to be any "equal footing as married ins" with Kate. Kate will be Princess of Wales and queen of England. Even if Harry had married an aristocrat or a foreign Royal, his wife would have not been treated as a married in equal with William's wife.

My suspicion is that Meghan is a supremely self confident young woman who is used to "winning". But given her pragmatic and goal oriented approach to life, it seems more and more evident that she didn't do any real homework before marrying into the BRF. Did she read Royal biographies?Study the history of the institution...good and bad? And yes...race and class distinctions are a BIG part of the picture.

Study the trials and errors of any of the other modern young women who have married into European royalty? Reach out and cultivate key relationships within the family ...fellow actress Sophie Winkelman(now Lady Frederick Windsor)perhaps?

Seek to be mentored by ANYONE other than her resentful immature husband and her showbiz confidants?

All this-and more- is what I personally would have done in Meghan's shoes.
If half of what emerge from this 'sympathatic' book is true, it does seem indeed that she wasn't prepared for this job, specifically for one aspect:
this is the only job in the world where popularity, or hard working, or performing better than some on else, does not get you the top position.
There is no audition for it.
Your fanclub counts for nothing.
How many magazines or clicks your face sells means nothing.
She was not in a contest with the DoCambridge, Catherine will become queen some day, no matter if she had been bland, lazy, unpopular (she is none of the three), and the DoCornwall will be queen before her.

If hard work would make you a monarch P.Anne would be the one...

imo ofcourse
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  #1085  
Old 08-02-2020, 03:30 PM
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Harry & Meghan wanted their lives to matter, but they couldn’t overshadow the other members of the family. Harry wanted his wife to be treated fairly and not as some interloper. None of that is wrong or deserving of 3 years of racist, biased, misogynistic lies and stories. What I don’t understand is the uproar about this book as compared to others that are written with and without the approval of the BRF. Is it because it pulls the veil back and exposes the machinations of the royal houses?

The Windsors care deeply what the public thinks of them. All the pageantry, nationalism, photo exclusives, tours are meant to further the monarchy beyond Elizabeth’s death. Hence the 4 generation picture at Christmas. Everything is to ensure the monarchy is strong enough to withstand political upheaval, Brexit, feckless heirs and unpopular heirs. The public must never question their funding of the family. Books like Finding Freedom show this family is no better than your neighbors.They have petty jealousies. They allow their employees to run amok. There are misunderstandings and slights. All the Windsors have are titles and gobs of money they inherited, not earned. Strip all of the pomp & circumstance away and they are simply a dysfunctional family with a creaking, antiquated business run by a CEO, who should step down and allow new blood in. I actually hope things do change so the next generation won’t be stifled in their pursuit of their happiness. That Charlotte, Louis’ lives will matter beyond their usefulness to Future King George.
  #1086  
Old 08-02-2020, 03:35 PM
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Originally Posted by DuchessMia View Post
Harry & Meghan wanted their lives to matter, but they couldn’t overshadow the other members of the family. Harry wanted his wife to be treated fairly and not as some interloper. None of that is wrong or deserving of 3 years of racist, biased, misogynistic lies and stories. What I don’t understand is the uproar about this book as compared to others that are written with and without the approval of the BRF. Is it because it pulls the veil back and exposes the machinations of the royal houses?

The Windsors care deeply what the public thinks of them. All the pageantry, nationalism, photo exclusives, tours are meant to further the monarchy beyond Elizabeth’s death. Hence the 4 generation picture at Christmas. Everything is to ensure the monarchy is strong enough to withstand political upheaval, Brexit, feckless heirs and unpopular heirs. The public must never question their funding of the family. Books like Finding Freedom show this family is no better than your neighbors.They have petty jealousies. They allow their employees to run amok. There are misunderstandings and slights. All the Windsors have are titles and gobs of money they inherited, not earned. Strip all of the pomp & circumstance away and they are simply a dysfunctional family with a creaking, antiquated business run by a CEO, who should step down and allow new blood in. I actually hope things do change so the next generation won’t be stifled in their pursuit of their happiness. That Charlotte, Louis’ lives will matter beyond their usefulness to Future King George.
Harry was not stifled by anyone. By accident of births maybe but the family just asked him to do his job believe me they covered up and buried loads about him.

That his wife found the job to not be what she thought and the fact that he loves her and wanted to make it work meant they left. So be it.

This is if news because nothing is new. The papers were in a way right about most things.
  #1087  
Old 08-02-2020, 03:37 PM
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Originally Posted by DuchessMia View Post
Harry & Meghan wanted their lives to matter, but they couldn’t overshadow the other members of the family. Harry wanted his wife to be treated fairly and not as some interloper. None of that is wrong or deserving of 3 years of racist, biased, misogynistic lies and stories. What I don’t understand is the uproar about this book as compared to others that are written with and without the approval of the BRF. Is it because it pulls the veil back and exposes the machinations of the royal houses?

The Windsors care deeply what the public thinks of them. All the pageantry, nationalism, photo exclusives, tours are meant to further the monarchy beyond Elizabeth’s death. Hence the 4 generation picture at Christmas. Everything is to ensure the monarchy is strong enough to withstand political upheaval, Brexit, feckless heirs and unpopular heirs. The public must never question their funding of the family. Books like Finding Freedom show this family is no better than your neighbors.They have petty jealousies. They allow their employees to run amok. There are misunderstandings and slights. All the Windsors have are titles and gobs of money they inherited, not earned. Strip all of the pomp & circumstance away and they are simply a dysfunctional family with a creaking, antiquated business run by a CEO, who should step down and allow new blood in. I actually hope things do change so the next generation won’t be stifled in their pursuit of their happiness. That Charlotte, Louis’ lives will matter beyond their usefulness to Future King George.
Does that mean you think the details in the book are accurate, and if so, where do you think the personal detail was sourced. ?
  #1088  
Old 08-02-2020, 03:41 PM
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Originally Posted by Hallo girl View Post
That is why it is all so sad, those early days were really good.
They had so much to offer to the country, the family, everybody.
The press has not been easy, but a great deal of what we have heard from the book, are moans re the family and courtiers. We are in a pandemic, millions of British people might lose their jobs when furlough stops, kids may or may not go back to school in the next few weeks, Exam results are about to be announced for exams that nobody actually sat, future options for university are doubtful, there is a real threat of a second spike and we are reading that Meghan was upset and Harry was angry that her hairdresser who she flew over from Paris could not use the priceless diamond tiara for a wedding trial......... we have more important things to think about..they just do not get it.
I agree that the timing of this book is extremely disadvantageous to the Sussexes. I think they could have made a valuable contribution to many charities and I abhor false stories/misrepresentation (of anyone) so I understand if they felt overwhelmed by published lies whizzing around the world. I hope this book can correct those falsehoods but unfortunately for them, it seems it also includes real incidents that do them no favours, particularly now when so many less privileged people are struggling with health and financial worries.
  #1089  
Old 08-02-2020, 03:47 PM
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Originally Posted by poppy7 View Post
Harry was not stifled by anyone. By accident of births maybe but the family just asked him to do his job believe me they covered up and buried loads about him.

That his wife found the job to not be what she thought and the fact that he loves her and wanted to make it work meant they left. So be it.

This is if news because nothing is new. The papers were in a way right about most things.
That last part to me is why this book is so much more interesting than the others that were recently published. Of the others i expected gossip and from the stuff i read on these forums it was, so i don't believe anything from those books (maybe some of it was true, but to me more by accident than by skill of the author)

*This* book however is thought to be sympathatic to the Sussexes.
It spills some beans on the RF's working, but they don't surprise me, i have no romantic, pink cloud idea of a monarchy; it is a company and some persons are good at their work, others...less..
But what this book also does, to me, even (as i said in a previous post) only half of it is true, is that it confirms things about the Sussexes that i thought were gossip, trash talk by cheap media...

i am one of those people who never clicks on daily mail links, or the sun, or what have you, so i only get the gossip from this board, and everytime in the past there was a daily mail link included, i considered the post gossip and to be taken with a grain of salt.

But it turns out there was truth in it...that is to me, the most shocking thing about 'Finding Freedom'..

IF, and to me it's still a big if, the book actually does contain the stuff that has been published recently (but that some of the quotes were published in The Times, made a big difference for me...)
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  #1090  
Old 08-02-2020, 03:51 PM
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Originally Posted by Hallo girl View Post
Does that mean you think the details in the book are accurate, and if so, where do you think the personal detail was sourced. ?
I actually don’t care if their friends, the courtiers or outsiders were the sources for the book. At the end of the day, these are real people. Harry & Meghan are actually entitled to their feelings. And if they found William high handed and hypocritical, they can. If they found Kate, cold and unwelcoming, they can. If they thought Angela Kelly should have been more accommodating about the tiara, guess what? They can. Marrying into that family shouldn’t take away who they are. Yes, there are compromises to be made, but total subjugation of their rights & feelings because it might reflect badly on the monarchy is ridiculous. Especially when the Sussexes have done nothing nefarious or illegal. They aren’t being accused of anything serious. Just not being grateful enough for the privilege of being members of the BRF and acquiescing properly to those who will rank above them.
  #1091  
Old 08-02-2020, 03:54 PM
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Originally Posted by DuchessMia View Post
Harry & Meghan wanted their lives to matter, but they couldn’t overshadow the other members of the family. Harry wanted his wife to be treated fairly and not as some interloper. None of that is wrong or deserving of 3 years of racist, biased, misogynistic lies and stories. What I don’t understand is the uproar about this book as compared to others that are written with and without the approval of the BRF. Is it because it pulls the veil back and exposes the machinations of the royal houses?

The Windsors care deeply what the public thinks of them. All the pageantry, nationalism, photo exclusives, tours are meant to further the monarchy beyond Elizabeth’s death. Hence the 4 generation picture at Christmas. Everything is to ensure the monarchy is strong enough to withstand political upheaval, Brexit, feckless heirs and unpopular heirs. The public must never question their funding of the family. Books like Finding Freedom show this family is no better than your neighbors.They have petty jealousies. They allow their employees to run amok. There are misunderstandings and slights. All the Windsors have are titles and gobs of money they inherited, not earned. Strip all of the pomp & circumstance away and they are simply a dysfunctional family with a creaking, antiquated business run by a CEO, who should step down and allow new blood in. I actually hope things do change so the next generation won’t be stifled in their pursuit of their happiness. That Charlotte, Louis’ lives will matter beyond their usefulness to Future King George.
And the worst World crisis in ages is showing that this "antiquated business" is stronger and relevant than ever.
People are not stupid, they pretty now that the Windsors are not perfect, they are humans. Still the system works, the "CEO " is, basically venerated by an entire nation and all the senior royals are more popular than ever because, despite their flaws, they knew how to react in a time of crisis.
The uproar is very much about an insanly ill timed book who does'nt even show its main subjects in a good light. It will go down in the flush of 2020 in few months (if not weeks with the already laughable Lady Campbell's coming up), the Monarchy , as an institution, is safe and sound for the next century.
  #1092  
Old 08-02-2020, 04:07 PM
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Originally Posted by Lee-Z View Post
If half of what emerge from this 'sympathatic' book is true, it does seem indeed that she wasn't prepared for this job, specifically for one aspect:
this is the only job in the world where popularity, or hard working, or performing better than some on else, does not get you the top position.
I can understand that Meghan wasn't prepared for that, but I'm wondering if Harry was either?

Yes, he's always known that William would be the heir, but recently it's been suggested that he was becoming increasingly aware of the huge gap between him and William. At one time they were similar, but now?

It's well-known that Charles is assuming more and more royal duties, and William is also stepping up. This probably had an impact on Harry.
  #1093  
Old 08-02-2020, 04:09 PM
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Originally Posted by DuchessMia View Post
Marrying into that family shouldn’t take away who they are. Yes, there are compromises to be made, but total subjugation of their rights & feelings because it might reflect badly on the monarchy is ridiculous. Especially when the Sussexes have done nothing nefarious or illegal. They aren’t being accused of anything serious. Just not being grateful enough for the privilege of being members of the BRF and acquiescing properly to those who will rank above them.
Like any other firm, if you don't respect the hierachy and you don't agree with the terms of the contract (worse : if you try to change them even if you pretty knew them since you were born), well, you have to leave, it's as simple as that.
The Sussexes just did that, so kudos to them, but at the same time are, apparently, blaming the firm, the boss and the tools.
Now that's rich !
  #1094  
Old 08-02-2020, 04:20 PM
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Originally Posted by Nico View Post
Like any other firm, if you don't respect the hierachy and you don't agree with the terms of the contract (worse : if you try to change them even if you pretty knew them since you were born), well, you have to leave, it's as simple as that.
The Sussexes just did that, so kudos to them, but at the same time are, apparently, blaming the firm, the boss and the tools.
Now that's rich !
Exactly. You don't like the kitchen. Get out. But it won't change for you. And don't criticise the existential existence of it for the fact you left. It is the way it is.
  #1095  
Old 08-02-2020, 04:22 PM
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Originally Posted by Roderick View Post
How exactly do you believe Harry and Meghan 'love and care about his family'? Maybe it is just me, but I don't see evidence of this at all.
I don't think that Harry's actions over the past year are evidence that he does not love and care for his family. Stepping away from his royal duties does not prove that he doesn't love his family. Not doing what someone else may want you to do does not prove that you don't care and love that person, it just means you want to make your own decisions.

The public announcement that they were stepping back and this book (if he did cooperate with it) may have been hurtful, but who among us has never done anything to hurt people we love. And if Meghan loves Harry, which I believe she does, she cares about his family as well.
  #1096  
Old 08-02-2020, 04:31 PM
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Originally Posted by US Royal Watcher View Post
I don't think that Harry's actions over the past year are evidence that he does not love and care for his family. Stepping away from his royal duties does not prove that he doesn't love his family. Not doing what someone else may want you to do does not prove that you don't care and love that person, it just means you want to make your own decisions.

The public announcement that they were stepping back and this book (if he did cooperate with it) may have been hurtful, but who among us has never done anything to hurt people we love. And if Meghan loves Harry, which I believe she does, she cares about his family as well.
Well said.
  #1097  
Old 08-02-2020, 04:39 PM
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I appreciate your point of view, DuchessMia but I don't agree with it.

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Originally Posted by DuchessMia View Post
Harry & Meghan wanted their lives to matter, but they couldn’t overshadow the other members of the family.
Harry and Meghan’s lives do matter and while they were “senior royals” they were working on causes they believed in. They didn’t get every assignment they wanted, but they weren’t self-employed. Even those who own their own business are rarely free to pick and choose what they want to do.

Quote:
Harry wanted his wife to be treated fairly and not as some interloper. None of that is wrong or deserving of 3 years of racist, biased, misogynistic lies and stories.
Nothing justifies racists or misogynistic lies and stories, but that was a small percentage of their media coverage. Not every criticism is based on racism or sexism. Harry and Meghan received some critical coverage, as have William, Kate, Charles, Camilla, and even the Queen have. It is unfortunately, part of being a public figure.

Quote:
What I don’t understand is the uproar about this book as compared to others that are written with and without the approval of the BRF.
Fair point.

Quote:
Is it because it pulls the veil back and exposes the machinations of the royal houses?
I don’t know that it “pulls the veil back”. It has been widely reported that there is sometimes infighting and machinations among the various royal houses. In other words the royal family and their employees are human beings with faults. Nothing new here.

Quote:
The Windsors care deeply what the public thinks of them. All the pageantry, nationalism, photo exclusives, tours are meant to further the monarchy beyond Elizabeth’s death. Hence the 4 generation picture at Christmas. Everything is to ensure the monarchy is strong enough to withstand political upheaval, Brexit, feckless heirs and unpopular heirs. The public must never question their funding of the family.
Of course the royal family cares what the public think of them but I think it is cynical to assume that they are only out to bilk the public and maintain their status. I think that the Queen and the rest of the royal family are convinced that the tradition of the monarchy benefits the U.K. and that those benefits outweigh the cost – and it seems that a majority of Britons agree with them. Yes, the family enjoys some benefits from their position but there are costs to it as well. Personally, I believe that Queen would have been just as happy if not happier, to be a wife and a mother. Charles would have been happy working at a non-profit and William definitely would have chosen a different career. But they all have decided to devote their lives to an institution that they believe benefits their country.

Quote:
All the Windsors have are titles and gobs of money they inherited, not earned.
I disagree that the royal family has not earned their money. Their family has worked for the U.K. for generations. You may believe they have been overcompensated but the people of U.K. don’t seem to agree. The Queen is 94 years old and Charles is 70 years old and they are still working for the people of the U.K. I don't know of many other 94 year old people who are still working. I'm sure there are many days when she would prefer to do something else and those days are becoming more frequent.

If the monarchy was abolished tomorrow, the Windsors would still be very wealthy and although their living standard would decline and they would lose their status, they would have the right to choose their own professions and spouses without worrying about public pressure, which may be a win for them. However, they continue to carry on because they believe it is their duty to their country.

Quote:
Strip all of the pomp & circumstance away and they are simply a dysfunctional family with a creaking, antiquated business run by a CEO, who should step down and allow new blood in. I actually hope things do change so the next generation won’t be stifled in their pursuit of their happiness. That Charlotte, Louis’ lives will matter beyond their usefulness to Future King George.
I don’t think the Windsors are any more dysfunctional than any other family. Few people could withstand the scrutiny that the royal family receives. Some believe the Queen should step aside, and she may want to (she is 94 years old) but the majority of Britons do not and it looks like she will carry out her duties until she physically can't.

I believe that Charlotte and Louis’s lives will continue to matter, just as Anne, Andrew and Edward’s lives matter. Anne has been able to indulge her love of horses while working on her charities. Andrew has been a trade representative and Edward continues to represent the Queen and the UK. None of them (except Andrew for different reasons) seem unhappy. Younger siblings may not get the headlines but their lives do matter - and I believe the Queen appreciates their work on behalf of the U.K. and those less fortunate.

Quote:
Harry & Meghan are actually entitled to their feelings. And if they found William high handed and hypocritical, they can. If they found Kate, cold and unwelcoming, they can. If they thought Angela Kelly should have been more accommodating about the tiara, guess what? They can. Marrying into that family shouldn’t take away who they are.
Agreed, but Harry and Meghan are not the only ones entitled to their feelings. If William thought that Harry was moving to quickly, he could. If Kate did not want to be friendlier and take Meghan shopping, she could. If the Queen and Charles are hurt by Harry and Meghan's actions, they can be. Most of the criticism I have read about this book is not because Harry and Meghan had feelings but because they may have cooperating with an author who was out to hurt William and Kate. For me, although I understand the feelings, complaining about things like not being able to access an expensive tiara when she wanted to or Kate not offering to go shopping with Meghan, comes across as petty and trivial.
  #1098  
Old 08-02-2020, 05:07 PM
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Originally Posted by Hallo girl View Post
The fact that William attended the Sandringham meeting, speaks volumes, I believe I am correct in saying he was also involved in the decisions around Prince Andrew. He is stepping up, so now has a voice in these discussion, going forward an even bigger voice.

The photograph taken at the Commonwealth service, with Kate staring ahead and William looking at her IMO spoke volumes also.
Indeed....Charles is mentoring William the same way George VI mentored his daughter; it has to be that way, and Harry needs to understand that. It’s not William’s fault that he’s going to be King, but you wouldn’t know it by H’s behavior. It seems to me that H is bitter and resentful of his brother’s place in the pecking order, and that colors his feelings about him. I feel like nothing William and Kate could do would ever assuage H and M because they can’t do anything about the thing that irks the Sussexes the most.
  #1099  
Old 08-02-2020, 05:19 PM
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Originally Posted by Roderick View Post
How exactly do you believe Harry and Meghan 'love and care about his family'? Maybe it is just me, but I don't see evidence of this at all.
Harry possibly does though I am not too sure of that now.. and Meghan Im very sure doesnt
  #1100  
Old 08-02-2020, 05:32 PM
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Harry won't have the position or privileges that William does and will but he also had a lot more freedom to do his own thing as well. William and Kate will always be in the spotlight no matter what they do (assuming the monarchy survives) and didn't have the option of having their children be plain M-W. Or the option of considering leaving on a short term or long term basis without a constitutional crisis.

Look at Anne and Edward. After some rocky times both appear to be happy with their lives, they get the perks, carry out engagements have their own personal charities and causes (Sophie has travelled extensively promoting girls health and education but gets a fraction of the publicity for it) and live their private lives as they see fit. If they had gone about it differently then they might have even been able to have a little more in/out leeway.

Even Andrew had previous had roles he loved as official trade envoy etc.

It seemed like important roles were being lined up for them, especially with the Commonwealth, as well as things like the National Theatre which is no small potatoes.

But that's not even the thing about this book. The extracts we've seen and reviews by people that have read the whole book don't lay out why the Sussexes couldn't stand to be there beyond petty and somewhat trivial slights and resentments or what they'll be able to do that's so much better now they're out. Or why they had to announce it half cocked in January and not when it was all sorted out.
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