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  #581  
Old 07-27-2020, 06:57 AM
Majesty
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Betsypaige View Post
I’m not sure what you’re referring to by “doors to manual” and Wisteria sisters. I agree with what you said in general, but Harry didn’t like it when anyone expressed any concern about his relationship with Meghan - his brother, his friends. There’s a real danger of him ascribing racism to many things that have absolutely nothing to do with race.
Doors to manual was a sneering reference to the fact that Carole Middleton had been an air hostess, and was considered "Not quite quite" by some of Wll's friends.. and the Wisteria sisters was a reference to the fact that Carole was seen as encouraging her 2 daughters to climb the social ladder.
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  #582  
Old 07-27-2020, 07:18 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Denville View Post
Doors to manual was a sneering reference to the fact that Carole Middleton had been an air hostess, and was considered "Not quite quite" by some of Wll's friends.. and the Wisteria sisters was a reference to the fact that Carole was seen as encouraging her 2 daughters to climb the social ladder.
Thanks! It seems you could be a saint and people will say nasty things about you...
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  #583  
Old 07-27-2020, 07:24 AM
Majesty
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Betsypaige View Post
Thanks! It seems you could be a saint and people will say nasty things about you...
well lots of people in the media, the public and I suppose Will's circle sneered and jeered at Kate and the Middletons.. I have seen groups where she was rubbished for years, and I dont particular love her but it was very OTT...
However I do have this uneasy feeling re M and Harry that this IS Diana Mark 2.. and it wont end well for them. I dont much like them but I feel a bit sorry for Harry.. annoying and spoiled as he is. I think honestly he is not smart enough to realise that Diana's doing Morton did not end well for her and that it drove her right into the cold outside the RF...
  #584  
Old 07-27-2020, 07:32 AM
rominet09's Avatar
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I really think too that it will end in disaster unfortunately....
  #585  
Old 07-27-2020, 07:38 AM
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I tried to read a little of the book but I just couldn't. Either they cooperated or their friends did.. and now I'm older and can see how this sort of thing rarely ends well for the people who do it. They are bound to alienate the RF and while there will be some contact, I think its going to be very tense...
  #586  
Old 07-27-2020, 07:38 AM
Majesty
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Betsypaige View Post
Thanks! It seems you could be a saint and people will say nasty things about you...
"Doors to manual" is an example of how it is not all about race as Americans think. Social class and family name matter a lot in some European circles. Again, the same happened to Daniel Westling for being "a personal trainer" (actually he was the CEO of a company that owned several gyms) or to Letizia Ortiz for having a grandfather who was a "taxi driver" (even though she was a renowned, university-educated international journalist).



I am inclined to believe that many people in Harry's social circle may have looked down on Meghan not because she was birracial, but rather because she was an actress, divorced (again like Letizia BTW), and from an undistinguished family. I suppose it is fair to say that those "friends" were acting snobbishly, but, on the other hand, in asymmetric relationships like that, it is predictable that questions will be asked about the intentions of the partner (see "Wisteria sisters").
  #587  
Old 07-27-2020, 07:45 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Denville View Post
well lots of people in the media, the public and I suppose Will's circle sneered and jeered at Kate and the Middletons.. I have seen groups where she was rubbished for years, and I dont particular love her but it was very OTT...
However I do have this uneasy feeling re M and Harry that this IS Diana Mark 2.. and it wont end well for them. I dont much like them but I feel a bit sorry for Harry.. annoying and spoiled as he is. I think honestly he is not smart enough to realise that Diana's doing Morton did not end well for her and that it drove her right into the cold outside the RF...
I don’t want to speculate about their marriage, but ultimately I do wish Harry would return home. Down deep, I have some hope for him because I don’t think he’s a bad person..more like a good person behaving badly. Terribly, actually. I really feel for his close family - his papa and brother, especially.

On another note, this is an excellent article :

Quote:
The pair are keen to champion the Sussexes’ philanthropic and campaigning agenda. “The aim of this book was to portray the real Harry and Meghan, a couple who have often been inaccurately portrayed and victims of those with personal agendas,” they say. That may have been the original aim, but over 24 chapters of score-settling and swipes at the royal family, the institution of monarchy, royal aides and the media, their admirable charitable endeavours are swamped by bitter recriminations.
.........

Harry’s feelings of indignation towards his brother in the book are palpable. As William encourages his younger brother to take all the time he needs in his new relationship — something their parents did not do, with devastating results — Harry does not see a protective sibling and an understandably cautious future monarch looking out for him and the institution.

Instead he sees “a snob”. Perhaps William wishes he had handled things differently now, but if two brothers cannot sit down for an honest heart-to-heart about one of the most important decisions in life, who can?

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/edition/n...ince-vmh5pz2jf
  #588  
Old 07-27-2020, 07:46 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mbruno View Post
"Doors to manual" is an example of how it is not all about race as Americans think. Social class matters a lot in some European circles. Again, the same happened to Daniel Westling for being "a personal trainer" (actually he was the CEO of a company that owned several gyms) or to Letizia Ortiz for having a grandfather who was a "taxi driver" (even though she was a renowned, university-educated international journalist).



I am inclined to believe that many people in Harry's social circle may have looked down on Meghan not because she was birracial, but rather because she was an actress, divorced (again like Letizia BTW), and from n undistinguished family. I suppose it is fair to say that those "friends" were acting snobbishly, but, on the other hand, in asymmetric relationships like that, it is predictable that questions will be asked about the intentions of the partner (again, see "Wisteria sisters").
Possibly but we don't know of any one who did look down on her because of her being biracial. I think that her being an actress, (and not film star or Mrs Siddons class) her family apart from Doria being so awful, her being at best a self made woman, were probably factors if people in Hs circle did jeer at her... Or maybe they didn't like her?
However its Harry who made a racial slur comment to a soldier...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Betsypaige View Post
I don’t want to speculate about their marriage, but ultimately I do wish Harry would return home. Down deep, I have some hope for him because I don’t think he’s a bad person..more like a good person behaving badly. Terribly, actually. I really feel for his close family - his papa and brother, especially.

On another note, this is an excellent article :




https://www.thetimes.co.uk/edition/n...ince-vmh5pz2jf
I feel a bit sorry for him.. but then well he behaves badly. And I think that Meghan encourage his selfish bratty side.. because she's' the same. Its honestly hard to believe in their "admirable intentions" of doing charity work, when you think that their desire to get out was fueled by a desire to make more money.. and partly I suppose by an egotistic desire to be noticed and admired and a peevish anger that William is higher in the ranking order. So often, it seems they do charity stuff that ends up really being "about them" rather than really doing any good for the people they claim to sympathize with.
  #589  
Old 07-27-2020, 07:51 AM
Lee-Z's Avatar
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OT: this reminds me of a scene from BBC's "Who do you think you are" with Celia Imrie, who has aristocracy in her ancestral tree (although not herself), when she went to talk to a cousin who had more experience with these circles, the cousin (very funny lady imo) explained how a few generations back one of the noble daughters brought home a potential man to marry, a well to do man, a doctor no less. But the family looked down on him. Celia asks why. And the cousin with a very posh voice says "Trade..darling" (or something to that effect).
Point here was, the man might have had a good job, a doctor even, but *he had a job*...he had to *work* for a living ...a man who had to work was considered no match for a gentle woman of her class

i thought that was funny, but it described very well how the british upper classes viewed the...others... and i bet that attitude still lingers somewhere...

okay, sorry to stray..
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  #590  
Old 07-27-2020, 07:56 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mbruno View Post
"Doors to manual" is an example of how it is not all about race as Americans think. Social class matters a lot in some European circles. Again, the same happened to Daniel Westling for being "a personal trainer" (actually he was the CEO of a company that owned several gyms) or to Letizia Ortiz for having a grandfather who was a "taxi driver" (even though she was a renowned, university-educated international journalist).



I am inclined to believe that many people in Harry's social circle may have looked down on Meghan not because she was birracial, but rather because she was an actress, divorced (again like Letizia BTW), and from an undistinguished family. I suppose it is fair to say that those "friends" were acting snobbishly, but, on the other hand, in asymmetric relationships like that, it is predictable that questions will be asked about the intentions of the partner (see "Wisteria sisters").
Got it, thanks! I hate it when people make everything about race (some things, many things, clearly are...but not everything) because in doing so, they pooh-pooh real and justified criticism.

Good point. Even if that’s the case, I think their motivations were good.....Why Harry couldn’t have had real, honest discussions with William and his friends instead of choosing the nuclear option is beyond me. He’s a hot head, and frankly seems impossible to deal with.

Denville:

Quote:
I feel a bit sorry for him.. but then well he behaves badly. And I think that Meghan encourage his selfish bratty side.. because she's' the same. Its honestly hard to believe in their "admirable intentions" of doing charity work, when you think that their desire to get out was fueled by a desire to make more money.. and partly I suppose by an egotistic desire to be noticed and admired and a peevish anger that William is higher in the ranking order. So often, it seems they do charity stuff that ends up really being "about them" rather than really doing any good for the people they claim to sympathize with.
I agree.....I’m sure they do want to do good things, honestly, but their actions taint even their noblest causes.
  #591  
Old 07-27-2020, 08:04 AM
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So the Duchess of Cambridge sent the Duchess of Sussex flowers - as a way of reaching out, a peace offering.

The Duchess of Sussex told the Duchess of Cambridge "in no uncertain terms" ... "that flowers were not enough".

What more was required?

Chocolates, champagne? Kate to take the Sussexes washing off the line, do the ironing, run the vacuum through.

Remember Mr Scobie said he had two sources for everything written in "Finding Freedom", so I believe it.



No, I really do.

Have a happy life Kate, you're free now.

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/femail/a...-offering.html
  #592  
Old 07-27-2020, 08:07 AM
Majesty
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Betsypaige View Post
Got it, thanks! I hate it when people make everything about race (some things, many things, clearly are...but not everything) because in doing so, they pooh-pooh real and justified criticism.

Good point. Even if that’s the case, I think their motivations were good.....Why Harry couldn’t have had real, honest discussions with William and his friends instead of choosing the nuclear option is beyond me. He’s a hot head, and frankly seems impossible to deal with.

Denville:



I agree.....I’m sure they do want to do good things, honestly, but their actions taint even their noblest causes.
Unfortunately charity work has become such "public" activity, (instead of being done quietly) that many many people get on the charity bandwagon to get publicity, to attend glitzy events, to cover up their own more dubious activities...
Meghan and Harry probably mean well, at least in their own minds.. but IMO they see philanthropy as part of the "giitzy" life of Hollywood...rather than doing much good to the people in need..
I felt that they wanted to go to LA because it is a place where movie stars and the rich and famous like to show off their "social conscience credentials"...
IMO if they had really felt they wanted to get out of royal life so as to be able to choose their own charities, they could have gone on living in Canada, lived off their income and gone to work somewhere like a homeless shelter...
  #593  
Old 07-27-2020, 08:09 AM
Majesty
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lee-Z View Post
OT: this reminds me of a scene from BBC's "Who do you think you are" with Celia Imrie, who has aristocracy in her ancestral tree (although not herself), when she went to talk to a cousin who had more experience with these circles, the cousin (very funny lady imo) explained how a few generations back one of the noble daughters brought home a potential man to marry, a well to do man, a doctor no less. But the family looked down on him. Celia asks why. And the cousin with a very posh voice says "Trade..darling" (or something to that effect).
Point here was, the man might have had a good job, a doctor even, but *he had a job*...he had to *work* for a living ...a man who had to work was considered no match for a gentle woman of her class.

We saw it also on Downton Abbey. Isobel's future second husband, Lord Merton, told her he always wanted to be a doctor, but his father wouldn't allow it because it would not be appropriate for a man of his social station (remember that Isobel, who is supposed to represent the English middle-class, was the widow and a daughter of doctors). Lord Grantham on the other hand, I think in the very first episode of the series, after learning that Matthew would be the heir to the earldom, mentioned maybe to his mother that he was surprised to have a cousin who was a lawyer (or something similar to that; I don't remember the exact words).
  #594  
Old 07-27-2020, 08:16 AM
Gentry
 
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I'm hoping that reading the whole book might give a more balanced picture but at the moment it all just makes me sad at the waste of such an amazing opportunity. Harry and Meghan had such a platform; they could have contributed massively as Commonwealth ambassadors, which is clearly what the Queen had in mind.

William and "this girl" snobbery - Harry used the same phrase in the engagement interview "I feel I know that I am in love with this girl and I hope that she is in love with me".

I have no issue with Meghan cutting ties with her father, after trying numerous times to come to an understanding. This idea of Thomas Markle as an unworldly, sensitive souls is ridiculous. He survived and thrived for, what, 30 years in Hollywood, as a lighting expert. You don't do that by crumbling at the first hint of
pressure. He sold his daughter for money; not once but over and over. That's not love, that's money-grubbing selfishness. Doria , as a black woman, had even more pressure on her but she put her daughter first, as any good parent should, and was the epitome of grace. And I can't imagine that Thomas wasn't offered the same advice and help as Doria. She took it, he didn't.
  #595  
Old 07-27-2020, 08:20 AM
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https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...iny-brats.html

Good old Piers is right: most of the stories the 'lying' press wrote about them were 100 percent true!

So either they sue for slander or they don't which means the content is true. I don't see how anyone can believe that H&M have nothing to do with the book. Unless the authors have clairvoyant skills we have an Andrew Morton scenario here.
  #596  
Old 07-27-2020, 08:25 AM
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https://www.dailymail.co.uk/femail/a...e-Windsor.html

It's a hill of half-baked beans and one long howl of childish petulance: JAN MOIR on the Meghan and Harry biography that has put the whinge into Windsor
  #597  
Old 07-27-2020, 08:25 AM
Majesty
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Duke of Marmalade View Post
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...iny-brats.html

Good old Piers is right: most of the stories the 'lying' press wrote about them were 100 percent true!

So either they sue for slander or they don't which means the content is true. I don't see how anyone can believe that H&M have nothing to do with the book. Unless the authors have clairvoyant skills we have an Andrew Morton scenario here.
I think that the whole style of it, all the stuff about how Meghan felt when she met up with Harry etc., HAS to come from either them or close friends.. and presumably the friends would not speak unless authorised (or maybe they think that they are doing Meg etc. some good by helping with this book).
  #598  
Old 07-27-2020, 08:44 AM
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The excerpts I read were just pointless.


Thing is when Diana's book was brought out everyone supported her. Everyone was 100% on her side. It was onlyninnher last year of life that people began to think there was something more to her and what she was doing.

Nobody is really supporting them. I mean some are but increasingly I just see people accepting them for what they are: a volatile, unstable pair.

What people were coming to see Diana as in that last summer. But Diana did have something Harry doesn't. You believed in her and that she cared. And undoubtedly you knew she was a victim of the institution.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sun Lion View Post
So the Duchess of Cambridge sent the Duchess of Sussex flowers - as a way of reaching out, a peace offering.

The Duchess of Sussex told the Duchess of Cambridge "in no uncertain terms" ... "that flowers were not enough".

What more was required?

Chocolates, champagne? Kate to take the Sussexes washing off the line, do the ironing, run the vacuum through.

Remember Mr Scobie said he had two sources for everything written in "Finding Freedom", so I believe it.



No, I really do.

Have a happy life Kate, you're free now.

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/femail/a...-offering.html
The flowers were sent as a birthday present but the book says Meghan would have preferred if she had checked in on her in the worst moments of the press.

Well there are a couple of points.

Kate had a small baby, a toddler and a school starter.

She herself had negative press and just dealt with it. He was she to know Megham found it difficult.

How about Megham reached out to her for advice.
  #599  
Old 07-27-2020, 09:06 AM
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Kate sending flowers for her birthday. Nice gesture but Meghan needed advice from another married in on how to deal with the press and support. Kate now only looks like she was out for herself and protecting her position.

William saw Meghan as Harry's new toy and should be nothing more. Once the queen signed off more work should have been done.

British Media going full tilt protecting the Firm is basically protecting their jobs. The Meghan made Kate cry has been refuted and the fallout with friends has been expanded to class and race indignities. Dad has been exposed for getting paid for Pap gate. The Establishment is mad it got scooped and it is taking it out on Scobie on social media.

The Firm brought some of this spilling onto the streets on itself starting with the courtiers. Listening to full of themselves employees and letting them disrespect an incoming royal who was going to be someone to work for. Any other "Firm" would has fired them for insubordination, but the royals let the inmates (courtiers) run the asylum. The House of Windsor needs to own some of this - and they do. Blaming the Sussexes is not going make this go away. Any action by the Firm will be seen as retaliatory and willingly wanting to harm a 14 month old child.
  #600  
Old 07-27-2020, 09:17 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Madame Verseau View Post
Kate sending flowers for her birthday. Nice gesture but Meghan needed advice from another married in on how to deal with the press and support. Kate now only looks like she was out for herself and protecting her position.

William saw Meghan as Harry's new toy and should be nothing more. Once the queen signed off more work should have been done.

British Media going full tilt protecting the Firm is basically protecting their jobs. The Meghan made Kate cry has been refuted and the fallout with friends has been expanded to class and race indignities. Dad has been exposed for getting paid for Pap gate. The Establishment is mad it got scooped and it is taking it out on Scobie on social media.

The Firm brought some of this spilling onto the streets on itself starting with the courtiers. Listening to full of themselves employees and letting them disrespect an incoming royal who was going to be someone to work for. Any other "Firm" would has fired them for insubordination, but the royals let the inmates (courtiers) run the asylum. The House of Windsor needs to own some of this - and they do. Blaming the Sussexes is not going make this go away. Any action by the Firm will be seen as retaliatory and willingly wanting to harm a 14 month old child.
What are you talking about? They have literally said nothing.

If Meghan wanted advice she should have asked for it. Kate had three tiny kids at the time and her own worries. Including a brother who had a breakdown and who she used to attend therapy sessions with. Meghan and Harry were not her concern.

Harry also moaned about being left to sort out the details after the main players agreed them and the net their staff take over. What did he expect?
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