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  #541  
Old 07-26-2020, 03:48 PM
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The idea of getting their own "court" as it were is something that could have been worked on over time if it was so important to them, not demanded as a big change right away. The Queen has 4 children, we know they all have strong and seemingly very different personalities that wouldn't necessarily be okay with all working for the family business in a hierarchy. Prince Andrew insisting on having his own website and allegedly wanting his daughters to be working royals and all the bells and whistles is an example of this.

Sometimes there have been upsets and attempts to do things "half in half out" before. Prince Edward made a direct quote before his wedding that as the 3rd son and 4th child he really wasn't needed as a fulltime royal, and yet here they are, "safest pair of hands" working for the Queen, supporting their own patronages and interests (including girls education/no child marriage/hygiene for Sophie) and raising their family mostly privately. As these things go that's not a bad deal.

At the time of their engagement interview and beyond to the patronages they were given it seemed like important/visible jobs were being lined up for them. Them being the "Commonwealth couple" to W&K's "domestic couple" could have worked. Several tours in 18 months is nothing to sneeze at. HM passed on several important patronages directly to Meghan that seemed to suit her. They weren't being given the "just cut the ribbon on the 3rd library/nursing home of the day" jobs yet.

When Charles was King or at least after say 3-5 years that might have been the time to pitch for expansion to their own "Court" or branch out into their "vision" of themselves as Royal Saviours. As it was they lasted about a year minus maternity leave, which is nothing at a new job, let alone a completely new way of life. It's like a new head Teacher or Vicar or whoever takes over. They come and they want to change things, put their own stamp on it and everyone grumbles and hates them, they wait a bit and do things a bit at a time and no one notices, x 1000.

But half the stories on this seem to be "Harry wanted out for ever, Meghan just made it happen" and the other half are "Harry can't understand why he isn't going to be crowned Co-King with William" and no middle ground where possibly things that weren't an issue became one due to new circumstances and things that had always been bubbling also exploded.
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  #542  
Old 07-26-2020, 03:53 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Betsypaige View Post
How on earth would the authors know what Meghan was thinking when she went to KP if she didn’t speak in some way to them? Unless they are putting words in her mouth...
Meghan could have shared this with a friend. What I don't believe is that these friends are sharing this information with the Scobie and Durand without Harry and Meghan's knowledge and consent.

P.S.
Between Scobie's hinky answers when he was asked by The Times about whether the Sussexes were interviewed and the nitty-gritty details that are being offered, it seems like, while the Sussexes may not have been actually interviewed, they did not just OK their friends "participation" but wordsmithed the responses to the questions.

So directly interviewing the Sussexes, which their spokeperson has denied, versus the Sussexes wordsmithing responses, which to me appears to have happened, is a distinction without a difference.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Alison H View Post
Until 100 years or so ago, it was quite unusual for a younger son of an aristocratic family - not just the royals - to have a job, unless it was in the Armed Forces, or sometimes in the church, or politics, or occasionally the law. A daughter would certainly not have had a job, other than doing charity work. A lot of time was spent huntin' shootin' and fishin', doing the London Season, etc.

It's still all quite new. The previous Dukes of Kent and Gloucester stayed in the Armed Forces. There wasn't an issue with Princess Margaret because an upper-class woman of her generation wouldn't have expected to do anything other than charity work. The idea of a separate role for a younger sibling of the monarch or future monarch is still quite new. If Harry had wanted to stay in the Armed Forces, or do something like being an air ambulance pilot, or get a professional job in an office, I think it would have been fine, though.
Yep, I mentioned in my comment that:
" While the institution of the monarchy has been around for more than a thousand years, the Royal Family is a fairly new concept."

I would add that royal princesses were also married off to other royal houses.
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  #543  
Old 07-26-2020, 03:57 PM
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The reality is Harry could have had the perfect royal life in many ways, far enough down the pecking order to become rather like Princess Anne say, alot of the perks but with the ability to have a somewhat private life, an estate to roam around on and the ability to do as much or as little for the Crown as wanted.

I think Harry should have stayed in the military personally I think the decision to leave was because he didn't want to do a stint at a desk job but all military personnel have to at some point so he should have continued on and done royal bits in between duty. Failing that the prefect option was there all along - work for the Princes's Trust. Meghan and Harry would have been perfect for that, it does a lot of inner city work and work with minorities and the BAME community and would have given Harry something of his own to link to Charles in the way William has the Duchy of Cornwall and future PoW to work with him about. It also would have given a natural way to have some oversight from Charles and his more experienced staff a bit like they ended up doing with BP.

TBH the book shows there is a real petulant side to Harry. This is nothing new of course, we've seen evidence of this before and even William went through a period of being really rather childish and petulant but seems to have pulled himself out of it and recognised his duty. The book just shows IMO how rash and head strong the two are, both needed partners who would channel that into something positive but instead they found each other and its become even more of a problem. They rushed into an engagement, rushed into marriage, rushed into public duties and rushed into deciding to leave the RF. They could have built a good life for themselves in the UK, heck even spending a lot of time in LA or Canada or wherever if they wanted. They seem to relish the drama rather like its their oxygen, suing everyone left right and centre which only drags out the issues and creates more headlines. Putting out blunt, hurtful statements than undo the monarchy's work and values of hard work and keep calm and carry on. This book, almost no doubt written with their approval even if thats just a nudge and a wink in the right direction, just shows the issues we all ready knew where there and just shows their blindness to others thoughts and feelings and opinions even when those people know better and have vastly more experience. Don't you think William & Kate were the best people to know how difficult it was to marry into the RF and find your feet as a senior royal? Of course they do, but their advice was dismissed as snobbery at best, racism at worst. Its interesting when it says "When he first started seeing her, Harry, sensitive to even the slightest hint of prejudice, had fallouts within his own circle. When some questioned his new relationship, and whether she was suitable, he would wonder, “Is this about race? Is it snobbery?” because to me that speaks more to Harry's prejudice than those around him. Are those people seeing someone "lower" than them or seeing someones "heritage" or are they looking past that to the person inside and the circumstances? the fact is people questioned the relationship because it happened so fast, because for someone who had claimed to always want privacy dating an actress seemed the antipathy of that. Questioning that doesn't show Harry's friends or family to be racist or snobbish but it shows that he thinks that way and doesn't perhaps see beyond that.
  #544  
Old 07-26-2020, 04:03 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Heavs View Post
At the time of their engagement interview and beyond to the patronages they were given it seemed like important/visible jobs were being lined up for them. Them being the "Commonwealth couple" to W&K's "domestic couple" could have worked. Several tours in 18 months is nothing to sneeze at. HM passed on several important patronages directly to Meghan that seemed to suit her. They weren't being given the "just cut the ribbon on the 3rd library/nursing home of the day" jobs yet.

When Charles was King or at least after say 3-5 years that might have been the time to pitch for expansion to their own "Court" or branch out into their "vision" of themselves as Royal Saviours. As it was they lasted about a year minus maternity leave, which is nothing at a new job, let alone a completely new way of life. It's like a new head Teacher or Vicar or whoever takes over. They come and they want to change things, put their own stamp on it and everyone grumbles and hates them, they wait a bit and do things a bit at a time and no one notices, x 1000.
I fully agree that the BRF was very accommodating to the couple and really tried to welcome Meghan knowing that all was very new to her and wanting to show support in the way they know (such as handing down patronages and having a joint engagement with the queen; but also inviting her for Christmas while only engaged). However, there are limits to what they can and were willing to do - as in the end it is not about personal preferences but about the continuity of the monarchy and therefore in service of the incumbent Sovereign.

Quote:
But half the stories on this seem to be "Harry wanted out for ever, Meghan just made it happen" and the other half are "Harry can't understand why he isn't going to be crowned Co-King with William" and no middle ground where possibly things that weren't an issue became one due to new circumstances and things that had always been bubbling also exploded.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Queen Claude View Post
Meghan could have shared this with a friend. What I don't believe is that these friends are sharing this information with the Scobie and Durand without Harry and Meghan's knowledge and consent.

P.S.
Between Scobie's hinky answers when he was asked by The Times about whether the Sussexes were interviewed and the nitty-gritty details that are being offered, it seems like, while the Sussexes may not have been actually interviewed, they did not just OK their friends "participation" but wordsmithed the responses to the questions.

So directly interviewing the Sussexes, which their spokeperson has denied, versus the Sussexes wordsmithing responses, which to me appears to have happened, is a distinction without a difference.
Omid was invited to BP on Meghan's second-to-last day in the UK - this, and also other actions, point toward a close relationship between the couple and Omid. So, I guess, an interview wasn't needed if they had already talked about several issues that are included in the book; and even more so if they had made it known that their friends could talk to Omid. So, formally, the did not contribute and they were not interviewed but that doesn't mean that this book presents their perspective and was written with their knowledge and approval.

It's just like how Meghan's closest friends were completely sure that Meghan would be ok with them talking to People - while Meghan insists that she didn't know about the interview. Both can be true, as she may even have asked them not to inform her in advance when they were going to do an interview. In the same way, they may have made sure not to be formally interviewed for this book by Omid - while they clearly did talk and share stories with him over the last 2 years.
  #545  
Old 07-26-2020, 04:07 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Queen Claude View Post
Meghan could have shared this with a friend. What I don't believe is that these friends are sharing this information with the Scobie and Durand without Harry and Meghan's knowledge and consent.

P.S.
Between Scobie's hinky answers when he was asked by The Times about whether the Sussexes were interviewed and the nitty-gritty details that are being offered, it seems like, while the Sussexes may not have been actually interviewed, they did not just OK their friends "participation" but wordsmithed the responses to the questions.

So directly interviewing the Sussexes, which their spokeperson has denied, versus the Sussexes wordsmithing responses, which to me appears to have happened, is a distinction without a difference.
She could have shared it with a friend, but then the authors should say that it came from a friend. Just based in that excerpt alone, this is barely what I call writing.

I absolutely agree that Harry and Meghan knew/know all about this...these friends would be cut off at the knees if they spoke without consent.

The whole thing is semantics. Whether the authors spoke directly to H and M or just to their friends (with full knowledge and consent of the Sussexes) doesn’t really matter.

Quote:
Originally Posted by tommy100 View Post
The reality is Harry could have had the perfect royal life in many ways, far enough down the pecking order to become rather like Princess Anne say, alot of the perks but with the ability to have a somewhat private life, an estate to roam around on and the ability to do as much or as little for the Crown as wanted.

I think Harry should have stayed in the military personally I think the decision to leave was because he didn't want to do a stint at a desk job but all military personnel have to at some point so he should have continued on and done royal bits in between duty. Failing that the prefect option was there all along - work for the Princes's Trust. Meghan and Harry would have been perfect for that, it does a lot of inner city work and work with minorities and the BAME community and would have given Harry something of his own to link to Charles in the way William has the Duchy of Cornwall and future PoW to work with him about. It also would have given a natural way to have some oversight from Charles and his more experienced staff a bit like they ended up doing with BP.

TBH the book shows there is a real petulant side to Harry. This is nothing new of course, we've seen evidence of this before and even William went through a period of being really rather childish and petulant but seems to have pulled himself out of it and recognised his duty. The book just shows IMO how rash and head strong the two are, both needed partners who would channel that into something positive but instead they found each other and its become even more of a problem. They rushed into an engagement, rushed into marriage, rushed into public duties and rushed into deciding to leave the RF. They could have built a good life for themselves in the UK, heck even spending a lot of time in LA or Canada or wherever if they wanted. They seem to relish the drama rather like its their oxygen, suing everyone left right and centre which only drags out the issues and creates more headlines. Putting out blunt, hurtful statements than undo the monarchy's work and values of hard work and keep calm and carry on. This book, almost no doubt written with their approval even if thats just a nudge and a wink in the right direction, just shows the issues we all ready knew where there and just shows their blindness to others thoughts and feelings and opinions even when those people know better and have vastly more experience. Don't you think William & Kate were the best people to know how difficult it was to marry into the RF and find your feet as a senior royal? Of course they do, but their advice was dismissed as snobbery at best, racism at worst. Its interesting when it says "When he first started seeing her, Harry, sensitive to even the slightest hint of prejudice, had fallouts within his own circle. When some questioned his new relationship, and whether she was suitable, he would wonder, “Is this about race? Is it snobbery?” because to me that speaks more to Harry's prejudice than those around him. Are those people seeing someone "lower" than them or seeing someones "heritage" or are they looking past that to the person inside and the circumstances? the fact is people questioned the relationship because it happened so fast, because for someone who had claimed to always want privacy dating an actress seemed the antipathy of that. Questioning that doesn't show Harry's friends or family to be racist or snobbish but it shows that he thinks that way and doesn't perhaps see beyond that.
I had a problem with this, also. It doesn’t speak well of Harry that he would question whether good friends of his were racist because it shows an intolerance of anyone not YESing him to death. Then again, so does his shutting William out because he dared express concern for him. It seems to me that Harry thinks the worst of people, and he doesn’t give them a chance to explain before he decides they’re not worthy of being in his life.
  #546  
Old 07-26-2020, 04:17 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tommy100 View Post
Harry had felt the need to prioritise the woman he loved over duty to the greater royal family.

This quote is a summation of practically every word spoken about the Sussexes.

Henry should prioritise the woman he loves yes, but in my personal opinion he should never have been in a situation where he had to.
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  #547  
Old 07-26-2020, 04:29 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Betsypaige View Post
I had a problem with this, also. It doesn’t speak well of Harry that he would question whether good friends of his were racist because it shows an intolerance of anyone not YESing him to death. Then again, so does his shutting William out because he dared express concern for him. It seems to me that Harry thinks the worst of people, and he doesn’t give them a chance to explain before he decides they’re not worthy of being in his life.
When considering whether or not Henry felt questioning his relationship with Meghan was due to racism or snobbery to me makes sense. Remember "doors to manual" that was snobbery as was the Wisteria sisters. I would think Harry would know his friends and if he felt their remarks were out of line he would say so. Again, being in an interracial relationship is different from having friends of another race or background. You tend to see things in a new way and will defend your partner if you believe they are being slighted. It is one thing for things to be "in theory" and another when it is in front of you.
  #548  
Old 07-26-2020, 04:43 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Claricecolin View Post
When considering whether or not Henry felt questioning his relationship with Meghan was due to racism or snobbery to me makes sense. Remember "doors to manual" that was snobbery as was the Wisteria sisters. I would think Harry would know his friends and if he felt their remarks were out of line he would say so. Again, being in an interracial relationship is different from having friends of another race or background. You tend to see things in a new way and will defend your partner if you believe they are being slighted. It is one thing for things to be "in theory" and another when it is in front of you.
I’m not sure what you’re referring to by “doors to manual” and Wisteria sisters. I agree with what you said in general, but Harry didn’t like it when anyone expressed any concern about his relationship with Meghan - his brother, his friends. There’s a real danger of him ascribing racism to many things that have absolutely nothing to do with race.
  #549  
Old 07-26-2020, 04:46 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hallo girl View Post
Harry knows well what his position is, he is 6th, even I could work out that the photographs on the queens desk were signifying the continuity of the monarchy.
Regular royal watchers will have noticed the subtle or not so subtle changes preparing for that terrible moment when there is a change of monarch. Charles and William are stepping up ready for change.
I find it hard to believe that Harry doesn't understand this. Anne ,Andrew and Edward all had to step back once Charles had children. Harry is in the same position as them now that William has children. There was still a role for him just as the others still have a role to play.
Harry would probably have had an even bigger role to play than his uncles and aunt considering that Queen Elizabeth II has 4 children , but King Charles will have only two. A smaller RF means a greater workload unless they cut down on their current engagements.

It is a difficult balance to strike , but., as far as I see it, either it is decided from childhood that younger children of the monarch will not be full-time working royals and they are free then to pursue their own private careers ( like the Dutch princes for example) , or the younger children make a commitment to be full-time royals for life even when their eldest sibling ascends the throne and they are no longer children, but rather brothers or sisters of the monarch.

The worst case scenario in my opinion is when a royal spends or is expected to spend a great part of his/ her adult life as a working member of the Royal House , being thus prevented from building a career, and is suddenly slimmed down, kicked out, or somply wants out without a credible Plan B.
  #550  
Old 07-26-2020, 04:59 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Betsypaige View Post
I’m not sure what you’re referring to by “doors to manual” and Wisteria sisters. I agree with what you said in general, but Harry didn’t like it when anyone expressed any concern about his relationship with Meghan - his brother, his friends. There’s a real danger of him ascribing racism to many things that have absolutely nothing to do with race.
"Doors to manual" and Wisteria sisters were said about Kate by friends of William and Harry back when they were dating. There are many ways of expressing racist behavior without saying something obvious. None of us were there, we don't know the tone of expressions that may have accompanied these concerns. Again, I am saying that when you are in a interracial relationship you see things differently. It is an added layer to having your partner become part of your friend and family circle.
  #551  
Old 07-26-2020, 05:03 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Claricecolin View Post
When considering whether or not Henry felt questioning his relationship with Meghan was due to racism or snobbery to me makes sense. Remember "doors to manual" that was snobbery as was the Wisteria sisters. I would think Harry would know his friends and if he felt their remarks were out of line he would say so. Again, being in an interracial relationship is different from having friends of another race or background. You tend to see things in a new way and will defend your partner if you believe they are being slighted. It is one thing for things to be "in theory" and another when it is in front of you.
I believe Harry’s friends and maybe his brother expressed reservation about his relationship with Meghan, but I doubt race was ever an issue.

I do think that the fact that Meghan was a divorced actress, an American , and seemingly , based on family background at least, from a lower social class than most of Harry’s friends may have been an issue. I wouldn’t call it snobbery per se, but class distinction and family name are more significant in European culture ( at least for the upper classes) than race. Similar reservations were expressed about Mette-Marit, Daniel Westling, Letizia Ortiz and even Kate Middleton although none of them were from “ a different race”.
  #552  
Old 07-26-2020, 05:23 PM
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Reservations was also expressed about Queen Maxima because of her father's political links, and also about Chelsy Davy because her father was linked to questionable politicians. With the odd exception - maybe Queen Mathilde - there are always going to be questions raised about any senior royal's choice of partner. Prince Philip wasn't considered suitable by the Establishment, and Anthony Armstrong-Jones certainly wasn't.


It was a really big deal for the Queen's grandson to be able to marry a divorced woman in an Anglican church, given the complicated history of the royals and religion and divorce. Charles and Camilla had a civil ceremony, and that was only 13 years earlier, and Princess Anne remarried in a Presbyterian ceremony rather than an Anglican ceremony. The Establishment did a very big thing for Harry and Meghan there.
  #553  
Old 07-26-2020, 05:51 PM
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I am surprised that so many posters here believe all that is printed. Books, newspapers and magazines are know for their gossip. I read some of it but I don’t believe all of it. I do believe much of what is going on started way BEFORE Harry met Megan. Remember Harry has 2 long term girlfriends who did not want to join the Firm they backed out. Since Megan came into Harry’s life, it is easy to blame her for everything. It is evident that no one here likes or cares for Megan. That is a fact. I hope that Megan and Harry continue their life as they want it not as everyone else wants it. JMOO as you have yours.
  #554  
Old 07-26-2020, 05:56 PM
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Shots fired - Charles just took a hit

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...k-reveals.html

The wait your turn about your projects for coverage. I put this on the media. Future heads of state should have received more press by nature instead of the sixth in line.
  #555  
Old 07-26-2020, 06:13 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mbruno View Post
Harry would probably have had an even bigger role to play than his uncles and aunt considering that Queen Elizabeth II has 4 children , but King Charles will have only two. A smaller RF means a greater workload unless they cut down on their current engagements.

It is a difficult balance to strike , but., as far as I see it, either it is decided from childhood that younger children of the monarch will not be full-time working royals and they are free then to pursue their own private careers ( like the Dutch princes for example) , or the younger children make a commitment to be full-time royals for life even when their eldest sibling ascends the throne and they are no longer children, but rather brothers or sisters of the monarch.

The worst case scenario in my opinion is when a royal spends or is expected to spend a great part of his/ her adult life as a working member of the Royal House , being thus prevented from building a career, and is suddenly slimmed down, kicked out, or somply wants out without a credible Plan B.
Exactly, I would NOT recommend the Spanish policy in this respect.
  #556  
Old 07-26-2020, 06:16 PM
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Stories have long been circulating in the media about Charles being irritated by their attention on his sons and Kate rather than on him, as well as older tales of Charles throwing his sons under the bus at the time that he wanted Camilla to be accepted, the Bolland time.

The book though reports that Harry and Charles enjoyed long telephone chats together even when negotiations for the Sussexes to withdraw from being working royals was going on.
  #557  
Old 07-26-2020, 06:26 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MsJulie View Post
I am surprised that so many posters here believe all that is printed. Books, newspapers and magazines are know for their gossip. I read some of it but I don’t believe all of it. I do believe much of what is going on started way BEFORE Harry met Megan. Remember Harry has 2 long term girlfriends who did not want to join the Firm they backed out. Since Megan came into Harry’s life, it is easy to blame her for everything. It is evident that no one here likes or cares for Megan. That is a fact. I hope that Megan and Harry continue their life as they want it not as everyone else wants it. JMOO as you have yours.
I personally liked Meghan a great deal and had high hopes of her joining the BRF despite feeling uneasy about how quickly everything was moving, but that was understandable if they wanted children. I knew of her from before that because I watched and liked Suits. Many of my posts were in support of Harry and Meghan - I was arguing all was fine when they were visiting Canada House the day the bombshell dropped. And it's the way that happened that soured me more than anything.

Since then my opinion has gone down considerably but I still wish them well and hope they find whatever it is they're looking for. I don't believe everything about this book and I won't believe the one that is inevitably a hagiography of William and Kate's, Charles etc actions over this either.

I agree that there were probably issues in his life and place in his family before and Meghan only exacerbated them - we know that from interviews. But it's also eye rolling to read that *allegedly* H&M were dismayed that they couldn't change an ancient institution into what they wanted overnight and the writers are throwing everyone else under the bus.

I think there were other issues at work in his previous relationships than just not wanting to be a working royal, but we'll probably never know
  #558  
Old 07-26-2020, 06:36 PM
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Sorry, if this has been posted already.
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/a...verywhere.html

ROBERT HARDMAN: Victims of Palace vipers? No, Harry and Meghan are just hell-bent on finding offence everywhere
  #559  
Old 07-26-2020, 07:00 PM
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Personally I feel that we would have seen a problem with Harry even if he hadn’t married Meghan . It was just bound to happen. He really seems to have became obsessed with his popularity to the point where he really is under the impression that the monarchy cannot do without him.
He expected the Diana dust to last forever and spread to Meghan. Think about it over the years he got away with things other royals would have been crucified for . But he just made people laugh and go oh, what a lad our Harry. He just wasn’t expecting the backlash with Meghan. He expected the press to continue that goodwill and support forever. Now he is convinced it is still there and looking for a support group.
  #560  
Old 07-26-2020, 07:15 PM
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That DM article is weird. They try to bait with this big "Harry thinks Dad cared more about public relations than him".......and, unless I'm missing something, the only thing that article describes is Harry being all bent out of shape because he's not as high as his brother on the pecking order.

Charles didn't take a hit as far as I'm concerned, though sadly I'm sure he will be hurt.

So let's see, a book that was written with indirect consent of H and M has taken shots at Harry's father, brother and sister-in-law, and indirectly HM. He wants to take down everyone and anything......kind of like a mobster using a tommy gun to rat-a-tat-tat.
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