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  #561  
Old 06-19-2021, 09:08 PM
Heir Apparent
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sunnystar View Post
Care to address any of the other wildly inaccurate assumptions you threw out there regarding the article that I pointed out?

To be honest, being such an involved, hands-on parent is why I think Diana would have given her sons wide berth as adults to work through their relationship issues - she would have wanted to maintain her own good relationship with each of her children and, my guess is, exercised a lighter hand than would be indicated by your "had words". But, perhaps that's just a misinterpretation on my part because "had words" is synonymous, to me, with "reading them the riot act" and not tolerating any falling out/distance/space in the sibling relationship.

Of course, had Diana been alive, chances are that Harry wouldn't have the highly distorted view of the press that he does and, possibly, not have faced as many mental health challenges as he has faced in life.

The fact is, William will be the CEO of the BRF in time and you can think its heavy-handed but he has to look out for that future and the monarchy's wellbeing, even ahead of his own brother but especially when his brother and SIL are reportedly behaving in a manner that could destroy the monarchy.
Thank you for pointing out the that with both brothers being in their thirties,, Diana would not have likely involved herself in this or other situations involving her adult sons.
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  #562  
Old 06-20-2021, 12:21 AM
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I wish we had some concrete evidence on what exactly HRH The Duchess of Sussex did to the palace staff. "Bullying" is very broad and different for other people.

Did she call them stupid for minor slip ups?
Did she throw coffee in their faces?
Did she make them choose between her and HRH The Duchess of Cambridge?
Did she make the walk to get her favorite cheesecake?
Did she threaten to ruin their careers?
Did she ask for hourly foot massages?
Did she exploit their deepest insecurities?

I feel that it's hard to judge HRH The Duchess of Sussex one way or the other because what she is accused of is very vague. Bullying can range from exasperated sighs to slaps in the face. I am glad that the palace is investigating, however.

Personally, I think that if HRH The Duchess of Sussex did something to the staff that was unequivocally wrong rather than something relatively wrong, then the actions would have come long before this point.
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  #563  
Old 06-20-2021, 12:38 AM
Majesty
 
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I find it notable that reportedly the two KP aides that left asked that their complaints went no further when they found out that Knauf was passing the complaints on.

And if it is untrue/biased/skewed? And it iIS all rumour. We are never likely to know the truth even after the BP Inquiry as it is more ?a Way Forward document or programme? as opposed to some critique of the Sussexes, who haven?t been asked to participate. And, as we saw clearly (those that can remember it) there was a clear stream of hints, assertions allegations about behaviour and mental state etc, coming from both sides during the War of the Wales?s and most of it was very partisan, on both sides, with the truth somewhere in the middle.

And as for this latest saga, unless ALL documents, emails and written complaints are placed in the public arena (very unlikely IMO) I think everyone should tread lightly in leaping to conclusions, especially from a KP aide (not a psychiatrist) who described another person as ?unhinged?, and a friend of one of the brothers describing Harry as being ?thrown out? of a Foundation he and William began.
  #564  
Old 06-20-2021, 12:46 AM
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Originally Posted by Curryong View Post
I find it notable that reportedly the two KP aides that left asked that their complaints went no further when they found out that Knauf was passing the complaints on.
Oh, it is certainly notable, but not because of the reason you seem to be implying - that there was no substance to their complaints.

One, there were more than two KP staffers who left the Sussex team and not all of them asked their their complaints be withdrawn/buried when they found out Knauf was trying to have the issue addressed higher up.

Second, we don't know why those staffers asked to have their complaints withdrawn - it could have been that they were still working for the Sussexes and didn't want to face any repercussions from H&M while still employed at KP. That is a very common reaction from many employees/subordinates when someone in a higher position of authority/their direct manager is being accused of bullying or harassment.
  #565  
Old 06-20-2021, 12:52 AM
Majesty
 
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And it also might have been because they themselves felt that they had over-reacted. None of us know what went on behind the scenes or what the motivations were/are for much of this. Such as why a KP aide is speaking as if he/she was a psychiatrist when they almost certainly aren’t. There are also people at KP with their own agendas.

And there are dozens of rumours about what happened between the brothers, with no verifiable facts. According to a later statement in Lacey’s coming book there was a ferocious fight between William and Harry on the eve of Harry’s wedding. That certainly wouldn’t have been about Meghan bullying aides as she wasn’t part of the Royal Foundation at that time.
  #566  
Old 06-20-2021, 04:29 AM
Majesty
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sunnystar View Post
Oh, it is certainly notable, but not because of the reason you seem to be implying - that there was no substance to their complaints.

One, there were more than two KP staffers who left the Sussex team and not all of them asked their their complaints be withdrawn/buried when they found out Knauf was trying to have the issue addressed higher up.

Second, we don't know why those staffers asked to have their complaints withdrawn - it could have been that they were still working for the Sussexes and didn't want to face any repercussions from H&M while still employed at KP. That is a very common reaction from many employees/subordinates when someone in a higher position of authority/their direct manager is being accused of bullying or harassment.
IME, bullying creates a climate of fear and the bulled often dont want to pursue a complaint because they fear that it wont work out well for them, that they will be seen as weak, that the bully will be upheld and will then find ways to make life even more difficult for them.. or that they will find it hard to get another job. It is not that they fear they themslelves have over reacted but that they fear that taking action will only worsen a bad situation,
  #567  
Old 06-20-2021, 04:43 AM
Serene Highness
 
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Yes, I've known issues being raised at work being met with comments such as "If you don't like it here, you know where the door is". Or else the bully is made to apologise, but they're clearly only saying it to bring the investigation to an end, and will then target the person who's complained even more than they were doing already. It's a very difficult situation to deal with.


We don't know exactly what happened, but what's worrying is that, if Robert Lacey is to be believed, Harry wasn't willing even to listen to what staff members were saying, and took umbrage because William was. As far as he was concerned, Meghan was infallible, and anyone who dared to suggest otherwise was at best disloyal and at worst racist. It's very hard to deal with that sort of attitude. It's like dealing with a parent who insists that their little darling is an absolute angel and would never bully another kid in the playground, and all the kids who say otherwise must be lying.
  #568  
Old 06-20-2021, 04:52 AM
Majesty
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Alison H View Post
Yes, I've known issues being raised at work being met with comments such as "If you don't like it here, you know where the door is". Or else the bully is made to apologise, rather like a teacher making a pupil apologise to another pupil, but they're clearly only saying it to bring the investigation to an end, and will then target the person who's complained even more than they were doing already. It's a very difficult situation to deal with.


We don't know exactly what happened, but what's worrying is that, if Robert Lacey is to be believed, Harry wasn't willing even to listen to what staff members were saying, and took umbrage because William was. As far as he was concerned, Meghan was infallible, and anyone who dared to suggest otherwise was at best disloyal and at worst racist. It's very hard to deal with that sort of attitude. No-one is perfect.
Agree, I think a lot of bullied people dont want to make a complaint formal, because they know that other staff will shy away from backing them up, when push comes to shove.. and that management may occasionally listen to an initial complaint, they will tend to back other managers who may well be the bullies..
A bully targets one or 2 people, but rules by fear because other staff will be afraid that if they back up their colleague who is being bullied, the bully will turn his attention to them. Usually the vicitim will put up with it as best they can, and look for another job...

Quote:
Originally Posted by TLLK View Post
Thank you for pointing out the that with both brothers being in their thirties,, Diana would not have likely involved herself in this or other situations involving her adult sons.
Its hard to say, I think Diana would be very upset if her boys, who really were her life, were at serious odds with each other. I think she'd be trying to get them to talk and get over it. But she might realise that interfering wasn't doing any good.....
  #569  
Old 06-20-2021, 06:42 AM
Duc_et_Pair's Avatar
Imperial Majesty
 
Join Date: Mar 2014
Location: City, Netherlands
Posts: 11,169
"Battle of Brothers"...


William and Harry each made their own individual choices in life, that is all.

There is no "battle". What should William or Harry battle for anyway?

Pffff....
  #570  
Old 06-20-2021, 06:45 AM
Majesty
 
Join Date: Apr 2016
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Duc_et_Pair View Post
"Battle of Brothers"...


William and Harry each made their own individual choices in life, that is all.

There is no "batlle". What should William or Harry battle for anyway?

Pffff....
It seems to me that there is a battle. William has been concerned iwth Harry's choice of a wife, afraid that his brother was rushing into marriage.. and within a year of the marriage, Harry and his wife did indeed walk out of royal life, leaving William as almost the only younger member of the working RF. It seems that also there have been arguments about their household and staff.
  #571  
Old 06-20-2021, 07:03 AM
Duc_et_Pair's Avatar
Imperial Majesty
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Denville View Post
It seems to me that there is a battle. William has been concerned iwth Harry's choice of a wife, afraid that his brother was rushing into marriage.. and within a year of the marriage, Harry and his wife did indeed walk out of royal life, leaving William as almost the only younger member of the working RF. It seems that also there have been arguments about their household and staff.

But the wedding was three years ago, they have two children, have left the monarchy and are not even residing in one of Her Majesty's many realms. If there was any battle, it is over. And the victor is also not clear because if it was Harry's objective to leave the monarchy, he has been succesful indeed.
  #572  
Old 06-20-2021, 07:05 AM
Majesty
 
Join Date: Apr 2016
Location: London, United Kingdom
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Duc_et_Pair View Post
But the wedding was three years ago, they have two children, have left the monarchy and are not even residing in one of Her Majesty's many realms. If there was any battle, it is over. And the victor is also not clear because if it was Harry's objective to leave the monarchy, he has been succesful indeed.
The book was published last year, and presumably researched before that, and i think its pretty darn clear that there is still bad feeling between the 2 young men.
If he's been offered a chance to do a new edition, he can't change the title.. and "Battle of Brothers" sounds better than "Brother's have their ups and downs". Besides, its not exactly inaccurate.
  #573  
Old 06-20-2021, 10:58 AM
Nobility
 
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Location: Philadelphia, United States
Posts: 272
I always thought the staff bullying thing started out as a culture clash, then spiraled. Though the US and UK aren't too far apart culturally, in my experience, Americans tend to be more direct and less interested in pleasantries in a professional context (though of course there's tremendous individual variation). That gulf is probably even wider for the Palace than the UK as a whole. But Knauf, being American himself, would surely have known that and taken it into account when responding to the situation. Harry's the one who chose to marry someone who'd barely set foot in the UK before taking up royal work, so it really should have been Harry's job to explain these sorts of differences before they blew up. But just going by their reactions to other perceived slights, they seem to consistently view any criticism as an attack on Meghan's race or origins, so something like "I understand XYZ is normal in the US, but Palace staffers are more accustomed to ABC" probably wouldn't have gone over well.

If I'm right (big if!), then I'm not sure it's fair to put most of the blame on Meghan. If Harry was insisting that whatever she was doing was fine, as seems to have been the case, I think think most of the blame goes to him here. To some extent, that's true regardless of whether the initial problems were due to cultural difference or just Meghan being difficult. Meghan has some excuse for not knowing what's acceptable in a professional context that's completely foreign to her. Harry doesn't. If he let his love for Meghan completely override his professional judgment, maybe that's understandable, but I think he only made things worse for her (and himself) in the long term by doing that.
  #574  
Old 06-20-2021, 11:25 AM
Heir Presumptive
 
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Location: Somewhere, United States
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Battle of Brothers: William, Harry and the Inside Story of A Family in Tumult

Quote:
Originally Posted by UglyAmerican View Post
I always thought the staff bullying thing started out as a culture clash, then spiraled. Though the US and UK aren't too far apart culturally, in my experience, Americans tend to be more direct and less interested in pleasantries in a professional context (though of course there's tremendous individual variation). That gulf is probably even wider for the Palace than the UK as a whole. But Knauf, being American himself, would surely have known that and taken it into account when responding to the situation. Harry's the one who chose to marry someone who'd barely set foot in the UK before taking up royal work, so it really should have been Harry's job to explain these sorts of differences before they blew up. But just going by their reactions to other perceived slights, they seem to consistently view any criticism as an attack on Meghan's race or origins, so something like "I understand XYZ is normal in the US, but Palace staffers are more accustomed to ABC" probably wouldn't have gone over well.



If I'm right (big if!), then I'm not sure it's fair to put most of the blame on Meghan. If Harry was insisting that whatever she was doing was fine, as seems to have been the case, I think think most of the blame goes to him here. To some extent, that's true regardless of whether the initial problems were due to cultural difference or just Meghan being difficult. Meghan has some excuse for not knowing what's acceptable in a professional context that's completely foreign to her. Harry doesn't. If he let his love for Meghan completely override his professional judgment, maybe that's understandable, but I think he only made things worse for her (and himself) in the long term by doing that.


Honestly- I have trouble believing that a culture clash was the driving issue with staff. As you said- the US and UK aren’t that different. Americans may well be more direct- depending on the individual of course. But I personally know many Americans from diverse backgrounds who moved to the UK and had an over-all good experience. I do agree that marrying into the BRF is certainly more complicated- for anyone- but I don’t really buy the idea that being American made it inherently difficult to impossible. Particularly when she had Americans, such as JK, as part of her staff.

What I’m getting is the problem was ultimately both of them. Meghan apparently wasn’t adapting, and Harry apparently rejected any and all criticism. Not that it was all their fault; it never is. But- that they have shown a consistent inability- even in retrospect- to take responsibility for anything, but laid it at the feet of everyone and everything speaks for itself IMO.
  #575  
Old 06-20-2021, 11:41 AM
HighGoalHighDreams's Avatar
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Curryong View Post
I find it notable that reportedly the two KP aides that left asked that their complaints went no further when they found out that Knauf was passing the complaints on.

And if it is untrue/biased/skewed? And it iIS all rumour. We are never likely to know the truth even after the BP Inquiry as it is more ?a Way Forward document or programme? as opposed to some critique of the Sussexes, who haven?t been asked to participate. And, as we saw clearly (those that can remember it) there was a clear stream of hints, assertions allegations about behaviour and mental state etc, coming from both sides during the War of the Wales?s and most of it was very partisan, on both sides, with the truth somewhere in the middle.

And as for this latest saga, unless ALL documents, emails and written complaints are placed in the public arena (very unlikely IMO) I think everyone should tread lightly in leaping to conclusions, especially from a KP aide (not a psychiatrist) who described another person as ?unhinged?, and a friend of one of the brothers describing Harry as being ?thrown out? of a Foundation he and William began.
Much of my professional life concerns employment disputes that have reached the level of agency/ legal resolution. This is indeed very notable, and here's why:

It is exceedingly rare for someone who has made a false or exaggerated report to "back down" during the resolution process. The normal response we would expect to see in such a case is for such a person to dig in their heels and perhaps even add to the reported behavior and demand a more serious resolution.

However, it is very common indeed for a victim of workplace discrimination, bullying, or other ill behavior to withdraw complaints as the complaint is escalated during the resolution or reporting process. This is because victims often do not understand when they make an initial report or complaint the level of involvement they will need to have with the resolution process and how much it will often feel like re-vicitimization. Indeed, many victims did not even realize when they mentioned the behavior to a colleague or superior that they were "reporting" and are uncomfortable with taking part in any resolution due to having to relive trauma, confront the abuser with their own behavior in an uncomfortable or traumatic way, or feeling that having an official "report" will act as a black mark on them even though they are the reporter.

As a more familiar example, this is the same pattern often seen in crime victims. Many victims of crime will "tell someone," officially or unofficially, but as soon as the resolution (such as prosecution) is laid out to the victim, they will withdraw the complaint and refuse to participate further. As a society, we have come to understand that this is not because they were not victimized, but because they were harmed so deeply that seeking a formal resolution is not a viable option. We have also come to understand that the cases where someone declines to seek a formal resolution because the original complaint was untrue are so rare as to be almost unheard of.

*Please understand I am speaking in general terms, not the specific case of the Sussex staff which we know almost nothing about, to explain why the above bolded, if true, may in fact be significant.*
  #576  
Old 06-20-2021, 12:06 PM
Heir Presumptive
 
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Battle of Brothers: William, Harry and the Inside Story of A Family in Tumult

Quote:
Originally Posted by HighGoalHighDreams View Post
Much of my professional life concerns employment disputes that have reached the level of agency/ legal resolution. This is indeed very notable, and here's why:



It is exceedingly rare for someone who has made a false or exaggerated report to "back down" during the resolution process. The normal response we would expect to see in such a case is for such a person to dig in their heels and perhaps even add to the reported behavior and demand a more serious resolution.



However, it is very common indeed for a victim of workplace discrimination, bullying, or other ill behavior to withdraw complaints as the complaint is escalated during the resolution or reporting process. This is because victims often do not understand when they make an initial report or complaint the level of involvement they will need to have with the resolution process and how much it will often feel like re-vicitimization. Indeed, many victims did not even realize when they mentioned the behavior to a colleague or superior that they were "reporting" and are uncomfortable with taking part in any resolution due to having to relive trauma, confront the abuser with their own behavior in an uncomfortable or traumatic way, or feeling that having an official "report" will act as a black mark on them even though they are the reporter.



As a more familiar example, this is the same pattern often seen in crime victims. Many victims of crime will "tell someone," officially or unofficially, but as soon as the resolution (such as prosecution) is laid out to the victim, they will withdraw the complaint and refuse to participate further. As a society, we have come to understand that this is not because they were not victimized, but because they were harmed so deeply that seeking a formal resolution is not a viable option. We have also come to understand that the cases where someone declines to seek a formal resolution because the original complaint was untrue are so rare as to be almost unheard of.



*Please understand I am speaking in general terms, not the specific case of the Sussex staff which we know almost nothing about, to explain why the above bolded, if true, may in fact be significant.*


I’m far from an expert, but I do over all agree with what you’ve said. Thanks for sharing your experiences.
  #577  
Old 06-20-2021, 12:07 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by UglyAmerican View Post
I always thought the staff bullying thing started out as a culture clash, then spiraled. Though the US and UK aren't too far apart culturally, in my experience, Americans tend to be more direct and less interested in pleasantries in a professional context (though of course there's tremendous individual variation). That gulf is probably even wider for the Palace than the UK as a whole. But Knauf, being American himself, would surely have known that and taken it into account when responding to the situation. Harry's the one who chose to marry someone who'd barely set foot in the UK before taking up royal work, so it really should have been Harry's job to explain these sorts of differences before they blew up. But just going by their reactions to other perceived slights, they seem to consistently view any criticism as an attack on Meghan's race or origins, so something like "I understand XYZ is normal in the US, but Palace staffers are more accustomed to ABC" probably wouldn't have gone over well.

If I'm right (big if!), then I'm not sure it's fair to put most of the blame on Meghan. If Harry was insisting that whatever she was doing was fine, as seems to have been the case, I think think most of the blame goes to him here. To some extent, that's true regardless of whether the initial problems were due to cultural difference or just Meghan being difficult. Meghan has some excuse for not knowing what's acceptable in a professional context that's completely foreign to her. Harry doesn't. If he let his love for Meghan completely override his professional judgment, maybe that's understandable, but I think he only made things worse for her (and himself) in the long term by doing that.
The cultural thing just doesn’t cut it for me. There are thousands of Americans working in various capacities in the UK and just as many British people doing the same in the US. The majority of them adapt without major problems. Meghan went from LA and Toronto to London - the workplace cultures in these three urban centres are very similar. You’d have more of a culture shock going from LA to many other places in the US than you would going from LA to London.

The workplace culture surrounding the BRF is likely somewhat unique, and would require getting used to by anyone who hadn’t grown up in that world. This would include the majority of citizens in the UK, as well as foreigners. But it wouldn’t be like landing on Mars - there are people, there are various offices, there are meetings, there’s paperwork, there’s a schedule, sometimes there’s travel.. the basic framework would be familiar to almost anyone who’s ever been employed.
  #578  
Old 06-20-2021, 12:33 PM
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Jason Knauf is American and worked for RBS. He's seen high pressure work environments. Simon Case (William's private secretary at the time who was also involved) is now the top civil servant in the UK answerable to the PM. He has to be able to deal with 500 different expectations, demands and personalities in a day.

What is being alleged here isn't a simple case of culture clash. "Meghan governed by fear,” claimed one courtier. “So many people said it. Nothing was ever good enough for her. [She] humiliated staff in meetings, [would] shout at them, [would] cut them off email chains — and then demand to know why they hadn’t done anything.”

In the article one staffer alleges she was a "narcissistic sociopath" - rather extreme for misunderstandings and culture clashes.

The archived article is here if anyone hasn't read it:

https://archive.ph/vDCzZ

As for Harry bringing his own reporter. I guess I just don't understand why? Their friendly reporters can write whatever they want to about the day whether they're there or not. Just like other columnists and reporters in the UK won't be there but will analyse it. Unless they want to use footage in any of their upcoming projects or something.
  #579  
Old 06-20-2021, 12:37 PM
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Location: Queens Village,, United States
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No staffer should call those epithets. For one thing, said staffer is not a professional psychologist and did not treat the person he called those epithets. This gets into bad territory.
  #580  
Old 06-20-2021, 12:44 PM
Nobility
 
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No staffer pretends to be a psychologist, as far as I can see. People do call epithets in regards to certain behaviors.

In the case of alleged abuse, the problem isn't how the abusive employer was called AS A REACTION to their abuse.

The employer isn't a victim here.
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