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  #241  
Old 10-11-2020, 05:45 PM
Serene Highness
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Betsypaige View Post
My posts all over this thread pretty much explain why. Robert Lacey is a very respected historian and heís been one of my favorite Royal go-toís die years, but Iíve lost so much respect for him. The idea that William and Harryís rift is as devastating as the Abdication crisis is outrageous hyperbole; from the excerpts Iíve seen of the book, itís overheated and gossipy.

As to the brothers, none of us knows how their relationship will evolve, but I think itís ludicrous for Lacey to act as if he knows that itís permanently ruined ...I donít care who heís spoken to. Weíll just have to let it play out.
There are only so many ways you can dress up 1. A brother who wants a private, relatively boring (stable in the real world) life, and to behave with professionalism in his role and the brother who is 2. A loose cannon and married the wrong woman ( in a public life sense). Truth is Harry is more like Margaret than the Duke of Windsor. It isn't important he has done this ( in terms of the royal family) but it is tragic on a family front. Reality is Harry is just unreliable and unsuited (in this marriage) to royal life. May have been different within a different context.
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  #242  
Old 10-11-2020, 06:48 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by poppy7 View Post
There are only so many ways you can dress up 1. A brother who wants a private, relatively boring (stable in the real world) life, and to behave with professionalism in his role and the brother who is 2. A loose cannon and married the wrong woman ( in a public life sense). Truth is Harry is more like Margaret than the Duke of Windsor. It isn't important he has done this ( in terms of the royal family) but it is tragic on a family front. Reality is Harry is just unreliable and unsuited (in this marriage) to royal life. May have been different within a different context.
I agree with your conclusion (though Iím unclear on your general point)...in which case, itís best for all involved that Harry is no longer a working Royal. That doesnít mean that the family canít still be a family...but, the way it went down was problematic, and as far as Iím concerned itís primarily on H and M. It didnít have to be as contentious as it turned out to be.
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  #243  
Old 10-11-2020, 08:33 PM
Aristocracy
 
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Location: Derby, United States
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IMO...Harry and William lost their closeness in their late teens. They each had their own dreams and ways. William however could not do what he wanted as he would one day be King. The only dream he succeeded with was to have Kate by his side. Harry was able to carry on for a time and stay in the military. Something or some one(s) made him leave....who decided Harry had to leave? It was not Harry, he loved the military, the friends the discipline. (Which many people now say he does not have). Everything Harry tried to accomplish sense military days was pretty much squashed. I believe it was someone who thought Harry was becoming too popular as a Royal. He was overshadowing his brother. Then the statement comes out how Charles wants to cut down on the working Royals. There was no job for Harry in the future. Charles had his sister, brother, of course William and Kate to help. Harry was the 3rd wheel. Harry should have been left alone with his beloved military. No matter what Harry did or does, it will be wrong in the eyes of the Family, Media and the Public. I don’t agree with all Harry does but he is not immature or not caring, he is not a lose cannon and we don’t know if he married the wrong person. Only Harry knows that The only peace he would have is away from the family.....it’s a pretty powerful family who pretty much says do it their way or no way. I hope Harry and Meghan have a life they want.
Has no one noticed that William and Kate have enjoyed all the attention they now have? They don’t have to share with anyone. They go work for the Firm, attention is given and they are blossoming. They have no competition and I think that’s how they like it. Again you have your opinions and I have mine. I hope both men and their families have a nice life.
  #244  
Old 10-11-2020, 09:04 PM
Aristocracy
 
Join Date: Oct 2003
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Denville View Post
I doont see what is sleazy about it, He may not be a serious writer but as royal writers go, he's one of the more respected ones. Of course no-one knows what the future holds but if he has been talking to H's and WIll's staff or friends and reached this conclusion, I'd say there's a possibility that it will turn out to be the right one. I dont think they'll hate each other - I hope they'll become closer again, but if H stays in LA, I think William will probably feel some resentment that he was left to carry all the burden.. and Harry will probably still feel resentment that William criticised his wife. And htey wont see enough of each other perhaps to get comfortable again...
It's not sleazy but the author falls into the same trap as so many others do . They baby Harry and absolve him of all responsibility for his life and choices and then put all the parenting requirements on William instead of Charles .
  #245  
Old 10-11-2020, 09:04 PM
Heir Apparent
 
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Quote:
Then the statement comes out how Charles wants to cut down on the working Royals. There was no job for Harry in the future. Charles had his sister, brother, of course William and Kate to help.
As far as I know Charles has always intended to have Harry and Meghan as an integral part of any "slimmed down" monarchy. Yes Ialso believe that Charles will also include Anne and Edward now that Andrew has been sidelined.

Could you please elaborate as to why you believe that Prince Harry and his wife would not be involved in Charles' reign?


Quote:
It was not Harry, he loved the military, the friends the discipline. (Which many people now say he does not have). Everything Harry tried to accomplish sense military days was pretty much squashed.
As far as I know Prince Harry's next step in the military required him to take a desk duty which he did not wish to embark upon. It was his choice to retire.


  #246  
Old 10-11-2020, 09:14 PM
Courtier
 
Join Date: Apr 2020
Location: Queens Village,, United States
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Quote:
Originally Posted by miss whirley View Post
That's not true at all. Her birthdays have gotten a lot of media attention , more so than William's birthdays. Everytime she's had a birthday gathering (and there has been several over the years) there has been media coverage. And like I said Harry has never been pictured or reported at any of those gatherings. But he also hasn't been reported at any of William's birthday parties since 2008, so like I said any estrangement with the brothers isn't likely to affect William's personal life that much as I believe the two have already been on rather separate orbits.
I've only seen "landmark" birthdays being given the most media attention.. William and Harry came together for Charles 70th birthday in 2018, and perhaps they will be celebrating with him again sometime soon--the 75th will be a big event. I think birthdays now need to be low key due to coronavirus. I never saw a big fuss made over birthdays of any of the younger ones including William, Kate, Harry, and Meghan. When Kate turns 40 and then William there may be more coverage, but non landmark birthdays generally don't get that much coverage. I see a lot more attention given to the birthdays of the children with photos issued of them by the Cambridges and the Sussexes, respectively.

William and Harry have gone on different paths for years now. As the spare, Harry was able to serve on the front lines.
  #247  
Old 10-11-2020, 09:18 PM
Majesty
 
Join Date: Aug 2014
Location: Melbourne, Australia
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Quote:
Originally Posted by akina21 View Post
It's not sleazy but the author falls into the same trap as so many others do . They baby Harry and absolve him of all responsibility for his life and choices and then put all the parenting requirements on William instead of Charles .
None of us have read Lacey's book (though I have it on pre-order) as it hasn't been published yet. However, in the segments that I have read the author criticises both Harry and Meghan several times, for both impulsiveness and methods.

However, Lacey does not absolve William of some of the blame for the relationship with his brother falling apart. Unless we believe that William behaved impeccably towards his brother at all times and in all situations since boyhood, and that includes his attitude to the woman Harry married and happens to love very much, that is probably near the truth.

No situation is ever black and white with no shades in between. And no human being on this earth is 100% perfect, with no flaws, not even William.
  #248  
Old 10-11-2020, 09:27 PM
Courtier
 
Join Date: Apr 2020
Location: Queens Village,, United States
Posts: 659
To answer some posts Re: William and Harry, I don't see how William "parented" Harry. William was away at school for one thing and was headed to St. Andrew's where he lived in a residence for students. Harry seemed to depend on Tiggy and Mark Dyer and he did get to Sandhurst; I don't think Dyer was the best influence though. William and Harry also for the most part had a different circle of friends.
  #249  
Old 10-11-2020, 09:33 PM
Majesty
 
Join Date: Aug 2014
Location: Melbourne, Australia
Posts: 8,379
With regard to birthday parties and other gatherings, it's a two way street.

Did William, with or without Kate, turn up at any of Harry's birthday gatherings since they were in their early twenties? Apart from family get togethers and the occasional polo match and even more occasional shoot, were the brothers ever seen together socialising?

Harry genuinely welcomed Kate into the family. They were seen laughing together at events like Trooping. The DM for years emphasised the closeness, had stories about Kate putting herself out by arranging venues for Harry's birthday by for instance changing rooms at KP into a winter ski resort. Did any of that happen? No.

In fact it doesn't appear that Kate went to any of Harry's birthdays, nor to any private celebrations when he and Meghan became engaged. Harry, having been happy to welcome Kate as William's wife, may well have felt hurt and annoyed that the same courtesy wasn't extended to Meghan. Nor, apparently, did the Cambridges bother to visit Harry and Meghan in Oxfordshire during the many months they were there. Not once. So to put the lack of effort to meet up over the years on one side and not the other is not correct.
  #250  
Old 10-11-2020, 09:36 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by akina21 View Post
It's not sleazy but the author falls into the same trap as so many others do . They baby Harry and absolve him of all responsibility for his life and choices and then put all the parenting requirements on William instead of Charles .

From what I have read from the serialization of this book, the author does take Charles and Diana to task for their parenting during their marriage ie: Firing nanny Barbara Barnes. Later after Diana's death, he chides Charles' decision to install a club for his sons at Highgrove and for being away from his sons during their school breaks.


Diana firing Barbara Barnes.



https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-8807983/Princess-Diana-fired-Princes-William-Harrys-surrogate-mother-jealousy-new-book-claims.html-


William and Harry as teens at Highgrove.


https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...k-reveals.html

  #251  
Old 10-11-2020, 09:38 PM
Courtier
 
Join Date: Apr 2020
Location: Queens Village,, United States
Posts: 659
The author points out too that William and Harry were drinking and smoking at an early age. At the 50th birthday party for Charles, they were seen smoking. I think unless there is supervision, it is a bad idea to install a club for teens. The good thing that came out of it was that Harry met his first Serious girlfriend, Chelsy Davy who was invited to Club H.
  #252  
Old 10-11-2020, 09:45 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sandy345 View Post
The author points out too that William and Harry were drinking and smoking at an early age. At the 50th birthday party for Charles, they were seen smoking. I think unless there is supervision, it is a bad idea to install a club for teens. The good thing that came out of it was that Harry met his first Serious girlfriend, Chelsy Davy who was invited to Club H.
Agreed but even with supervision, it was a very poor idea to permit the then underage brothers to have their own club at Highgrove which gave them access to alcohol.
  #253  
Old 10-11-2020, 09:50 PM
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Location: Queens Village,, United States
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The liquor cabinet was not locked and the servants at times were the only adults in residence.
  #254  
Old 10-11-2020, 10:07 PM
Osipi's Avatar
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Whether or not "Club H" was installed at Highgrove, any home with teens and the parents being away can become a "party zone". Growing up, having "parties" unsupervised were a right of passage. I did it. My kids did it and I imagine their kids are going to do it too when they're old enough.

All it took in my time to designate it a party was a) Boones Farm apple wine, b) no parents around and c) Sly and the Family Stone's "Dance To The Music". Oh to be young and stupid again!
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  #255  
Old 10-11-2020, 10:20 PM
Nobility
 
Join Date: Feb 2020
Location: Jakarta, Indonesia
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sandy345 View Post
(...)
I never heard that Harry sat William down and told him to "think about" marrying Kate.

I don't see any reason why William should tell Harry "I told you so." Harry has his family now a wife and son. And there is nothing wrong with that! Plus a lot of "normal life" was disrupted by COVID to put it mildly.
An old article from 2007.
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...nion-Kate.html
Quote:
Friends of Prince William are worried he has rekindled his romance with Kate Middleton only because he feels under pressure to find a suitable wife.
Among those to express concern is younger brother Harry, who is said to be desperately worried that William will do something "rash".
I'm not saying that it's true, it's the beloved Daily Mail after all. And typical of those rags, the content is mostly about bashing Kate and many mentioned of some 'friends' instead of Harry. I just want to point out that once upon a time, they already pulled this kind of story.

Quote:
Originally Posted by MsJulie View Post
IMO...Harry and William lost their closeness in their late teens. They each had their own dreams and ways. William however could not do what he wanted as he would one day be King. The only dream he succeeded with was to have Kate by his side. Harry was able to carry on for a time and stay in the military. Something or some one(s) made him leave....who decided Harry had to leave? It was not Harry, he loved the military, the friends the discipline. (Which many people now say he does not have). Everything Harry tried to accomplish sense military days was pretty much squashed. I believe it was someone who thought Harry was becoming too popular as a Royal. He was overshadowing his brother. Then the statement comes out how Charles wants to cut down on the working Royals. There was no job for Harry in the future. Charles had his sister, brother, of course William and Kate to help. Harry was the 3rd wheel. Harry should have been left alone with his beloved military. No matter what Harry did or does, it will be wrong in the eyes of the Family, Media and the Public. I donít agree with all Harry does but he is not immature or not caring, he is not a lose cannon and we donít know if he married the wrong person. Only Harry knows that The only peace he would have is away from the family.....itís a pretty powerful family who pretty much says do it their way or no way. I hope Harry and Meghan have a life they want.
Has no one noticed that William and Kate have enjoyed all the attention they now have? They donít have to share with anyone. They go work for the Firm, attention is given and they are blossoming. They have no competition and I think thatís how they like it. Again you have your opinions and I have mine. I hope both men and their families have a nice life.
I wonder, if they (whoever they are) don't want Harry to overshadow William, why 'they' pulled him from military?
IPSOS MORI poll in 2012 show that:
Quote:
When people are asked to name the two or three members of the Royal Family they like the most, however, the most frequently named is Prince William, picked by 62%, ahead of the Queen (48%), Prince Harry (36%) and the Duchess of Cambridge (23%).
"
A Telegraph article from 2013:
Quote:
While the Queen is the most admired member of the Royal family overall, among those aged between 18 and 24, the Duchess of Cambridge emerges as the single most popular figure.

As well as being favoured by young adults, both she and the Duke of Cambridge are markedly more admired by women than by men, according to the survey.

Prince Harry, emerges from the poll as Britainís third-favourite member of the Royal family, suggesting that his service in Afghanistan as an Apache attack helicopter gunner has endeared him to the public.
Harry's popularity rose in 2014, but logically if someone felt threaten by that, isn't it better to 'bury' him in military desk duty instead of pulling him out (March 2015) and give him more 'media visibility' by making him working royal?

Then if there's no 'future' or possible 'role' for him, why they appointed him as Captain General Royal Marines in 2017? That role always associated closely to the throne with the previous holder were George V, Edward VIII, George VI, Phillip (consort of the Queen), so by that pattern after Phillip stepped down it should go to either Charles or William, right?
I think it's a statement on how they see Harry's importance in the future of BRF.
(PS: rumour has it that it'd go to Anne, but there's another claim that Royal Marines has approached William to take that role.)
  #256  
Old 10-12-2020, 12:33 AM
Heir Presumptive
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TLLK View Post
From what I have read from the serialization of this book, the author does take Charles and Diana to task for their parenting during their marriage ie: Firing nanny Barbara Barnes. Later after Diana's death, he chides Charles' decision to install a club for his sons at Highgrove and for being away from his sons during their school breaks.


Diana firing Barbara Barnes.



https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-8807983/Princess-Diana-fired-Princes-William-Harrys-surrogate-mother-jealousy-new-book-claims.html-


William and Harry as teens at Highgrove.


https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...k-reveals.html
This is the kind of thing I mean when I call the book sleazy. Obviously Charles and Diana were not perfect parents - no one is - but I donít like Lacey judging them in hindsight, or blaming them for their adult sonsí choices. Heís a historian, not a psychiatrist. Does Lacey have children? If so, Iíll bet he wouldnít like someone taking him to task for his parenting choices. I have no respect for him anymore.
  #257  
Old 10-12-2020, 12:50 AM
Majesty
 
Join Date: Aug 2014
Location: Melbourne, Australia
Posts: 8,379
From The Australian article which I linked upthread and is behind a paywall.

https://www.theaustralian.com.au/wor...3e05d1c20dfced

Robert Lacey’s latest book on the British monarchy is still four days from publication, but already he’s getting hate mail from furious Prince William fans. “There is such anger that the book has dared to suggest Prince William is not perfect,” says the historian, 76, who has been writing about royal matters for more than 40 years. He is also consultant on The Crown, whose fourth series comes to Netflix next month.

“Portraits of William are always so idealised because he is our future king. Charles III and Queen Camilla is not an appealing prospect, but there is William and his wonderful wife - and that’s what everybody has their hopes set on.”

Not an appealing prospect? Now Prince Charles fans will be reaching for their organic quills.

Lacey’s book, Battle of Brothers, is an account of the uneasy relationship between William and Prince Harry. Until he began his research, Lacey had thought this feud was a newspaper invention. He says he has spoken to dozens of people who know the princes and now believes the rift is even more serious than reports have claimed.

Lacey suggests, among other things, that William has a formidable temper and that - perhaps more wounding - he has gained his reputation for steadiness and sense of duty at the expense of his younger brother.

The brothers race during a Marathon Training Day with Team Heads Together at the Queen Elizabeth Olympic Park on February 5, 2017 in London. Picture: Getty
The brothers race during a Marathon Training Day with Team Heads Together at the Queen Elizabeth Olympic Park on February 5, 2017 in London. Picture: Getty
Yet this was not the book he had been hoping to write. The heir and the spare he originally had in mind were Charles and Prince Andrew, but he dropped that plan after talking to his friend Peter Morgan, the writer of The Crown, who bluntly advised: “They aren’t the princes that matter any more.”

The resulting book is a mixture of the occasional revelation and well-worn anecdotes about the lives of William and Harry that stretch back to their parents’ courtship and the very public disintegration of that marriage.

Tension between the princes, he claims, dates back to their school days at Eton, where William introduced Harry to a riotous social circle. While Harry took the blame for bad behaviour, William seemed to emerge unscathed.

“This was the beginning of the relentless popular media stereotyping that would eventually drive Prince Harry out of Britain,” writes Lacey. “The other face of that stereotype was, of course, the impeccable image of his perfect elder brother, golden boy Prince William.”

One of the only times Harry got the better of his brother was during his military service. On graduating from Sandhurst, Harry noted that William, then a cadet, would now have to salute him. And while Captain Wales came under fire in Afghanistan, it was decided that sending William anywhere near the front line would prove too great a temptation to the Taliban.

Prince William accompanies Prince Harry on his first day At Wetherby School. Picture: Getty
Prince William accompanies Prince Harry on his first day At Wetherby School. Picture: Getty
Apart from that, Harry was always going to finish in second place. He was hurt, says Lacey, by his father’s plans for a slimmed-down monarchy and resented an official portrait taken early this year showing only the Queen, Charles, William and Prince George - the direct line of succession. But, as we all now know, it is Harry’s marriage - to a woman the author describes, with Wallis Simpson in mind, as “the second American divorcee to screw up the monarchy” - that has proved particularly divisive.

“The palace expected Harry to marry a nice girl called Annabel or Henrietta and to go and live in the country,” says Lacey. “They didn’t expect this bombshell.”

Presented with the opinionated and outspoken Meghan Markle, the palace didn’t know what to do. “There was personal animosity in the palace towards Meghan - and the feeling is mutual,” says Lacey. “There was somebody in the palace - and I can’t name them - who hated Meghan. There is no love lost there.”

This revelation was removed from the book on legal advice. Even with this precaution, Battle of Brothers proved too explosive for sensitive courtiers. Lacey’s usual practice with his royal books is to submit selected chapters to the palace in advance, a habit dating back to the help he says he got for Majesty, his 1977 biography of the Queen. But this time the packet came back unopened. “They took fright over the title, probably,” he says.

Nothing seemed to bring the two sides together. William, who made his girlfriend wait nine years before suggesting marriage, was so worried about Harry’s rush to the altar that he asked his uncle, Earl Spencer, to intervene. That only made matters worse: “Harry was furious with his elder brother for dragging other family members into the row.”

Relations between the palace and the Sussexes became so bad that pictures of Harry and Meghan were notably absent from the display of photographs on Her Majesty’s desk during the 2019 Christmas message, although they had featured the year before: “Who does and who does not feature on the royal Christmas desk has always been like the changing panorama of faces on the historic balcony of Moscow’s Kremlin. It showed who was in favour and who was not.”
  #258  
Old 10-12-2020, 07:53 AM
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Join Date: Dec 2010
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That article (Thanks for posting) makes me even angrier with Lacey.

Quote:
ďPortraits of William are always so idealised because he is our future king. Charles III and Queen Camilla is not an appealing prospect, but there is William and his wonderful wife - and thatís what everybody has their hopes set on.Ē

Not an appealing prospect? Now Prince Charles fans will be reaching for their organic quills.

Iím reaching for something, though not organic quills. Lacey has no business speaking for anyone else...Iím a Charles fan, and I think heíll be a terrific King. My my, every word Lacey speaks about Charles or William drips with disdain. ďWilliam and his wonderful wifeĒ - I can just hear the bitterness and sarcasm in his voice...

Quote:
Lacey suggests, among other things, that William has a formidable temper and that - perhaps more wounding - he has gained his reputation for steadiness and sense of duty at the expense of his younger brother.
This really annoys me. When has anyone ever suggested William was perfect? He has a temper, thatís nothing new. As for his ďreputation for steadiness and sense of dutyĒ, heís EARNED that through his actions. Harry is the one who ditched the UK - thatís not Williamís fault or anyone elseís. Harry chose to leave, chose his personal life over a sense of duty - Iím not judging him with this comment, itís the truth. If that works for him, fine, but Iím not about to feel sorry for him. William has been brilliant during this crisis - so have the BRF in general - and thatís the truth; it has nothing to do with H.


About the Christmas photo, Iím still rolling my eyes.

Yes, Lacey has criticized H and Mís behavior, but itís very clear that heís personally sympathetic to him while overly critical of William. As far as Iím concerned, heís an H apologist.

Iíll never take anything Robert Lacey says seriously again.
  #259  
Old 10-12-2020, 08:39 AM
Majesty
 
Join Date: May 2014
Location: Pittsburgh, United States
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TLLK View Post
From what I have read from the serialization of this book, the author does take Charles and Diana to task for their parenting during their marriage ie: Firing nanny Barbara Barnes. Later after Diana's death, he chides Charles' decision to install a club for his sons at Highgrove and for being away from his sons during their school breaks.


Diana firing Barbara Barnes.



https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-8807983/Princess-Diana-fired-Princes-William-Harrys-surrogate-mother-jealousy-new-book-claims.html-


William and Harry as teens at Highgrove.


https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...k-reveals.html

The Daily Mail article suggests that Harry was already a heavy drinker and a regular (daily) pot smoker at the age of 16. Although that is not new information, I didn't realize it was that bad.
  #260  
Old 10-12-2020, 09:06 AM
Majesty
 
Join Date: Aug 2014
Location: Melbourne, Australia
Posts: 8,379
The Daily Fail asserts and twists a lot of things that are untrue . Many, many young British males drink heavily in their teens and early twenties, and not a few smoke pot. And that allegedly included members in William and Harry's circle, who used to gather at the Rattlebones Inn near Highgrove. If Harry was an alcoholic pothead during his army career, he would hardly have been trusted with very expensive pieces of equipment like Lynx and Apache helicopters.
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