"1015 København K" by Trine Villemann (2007)

[Viv]

It may also have to do with the fact that many Danish princes in the 20th century who married Danes lost their titles and styles. By marrying foreigners, Danish royals did not have to open that can of worms.

As a matter of fact: the first Danish princes to lose their princely
titles in the 20th century married foreigners; I'm thinking of Princes
Aage, Erik and Viggo (the "Valdemars"). If I remember correctly
(..sorry, right now I'm too comfortable to run upstairs and check
the proper source ) Prince Aage was styled "Prince Aage,
count of Rosenborg),the others were relegated to "counts" even though
Viggo and his wife were popularly known as "prince and princess Viggo".

Maybe someone can corroborate?
Sorry for going off topic, btw!

 

[denice]

I too was surprised about Alexandra. I really didn't know much about her at all. I had only seen pictirues of her and thought she was lovely. Very "princessy". I was surprised when they announced the divorce. I only became interested in the Danish royals when Mary came on the scene.

 

[Villemann]

The question is - were they just girlfriends - just the same way as I had boyfriends whom I dumped after us being together for years?



That is speculating. Anyway I have no idea what the usual Margrethe-context is - the frasing in itselfe lead to the word speculation.

But all in all, what I think Viv is, this discussion of ours is about nothing but speculations. I prefere facts.

I accept that there are things going on that neither I nor you or Villemann knows anything about and when one person interpret/speculate one thing - another person just as easily can come up with the opposite. Speculating or interpreting will never provide the truths - only speculations.

The posts om this thread is a very good example of that, the last of youres, the previous of mine and this included

But yes, knowing I am speculating, I am convinced Frederik would have ended up marrying Mary - also if she was born Danish.

I disagree . CP Frederik would never have married Mary if the DRF had not had that silly family tradition. He wanted to marry Katja in 1995, but the Queen would not give her consent, because Katja was Danish.

 

[Madame Royale]

but the Queen would not give her consent, because Katja was Danish.

You know this as a definate fact? I mean you are 150% (stuff 110) certain, and can provide the evidence to support it, that the reason Frederik didn't marry her was because Margrethe stipulated that he had to marry a foreigner. Not advised, stipulated.

 

[Villemann]

You know this as a definate fact? I mean you are 150% (stuff 110) certain, and can provide the evidence to support it, that the reason Frederik didn't marry her was because Margrethe stipulated that he had to marry a foreigner. Not advised, stipulated.

Yes, I know it for a fact. The Queen said no. Will I provide my sources on this? No, I will not, but has it been denied by any of the partiers invlved back then? No, It hasn't!

 

[Madame Royale]

Of course you won't (can't) provide the evidence...

Did I really think you would/could? Of course not, but there's always hope that some day you shall...

 

[Viv]

That is speculating. Anyway I have no idea what the usual Margrethe-context is - the frasing in itselfe lead to the word speculation. .... But all in all, what I think Viv is, this discussion of ours is about nothing but speculations. I prefere facts. .

To read something in context is a tool of text analysis. I will PM you on this!

 

[Villemann]

Of course you won't (can't) provide the evidence...

Did I really think you would/could? Of course not, but there's always hope that some day you shall...

Have you actually read my book?

 

[Madame Royale]

I have indeed read your book, and before it was released in english too...

A Danish girlfriend of mine was kind enough, in her 'free' time, to translate the content (she is a secreterial translator by profession).

 

[Viv]

You know this as a definate fact? I mean you are 150% (stuff 110) certain, and can provide the evidence to support it, that the reason Frederik didn't marry her was because Margrethe stipulated that he had to marry a foreigner. Not advised, stipulated.

I am inclined to believe Villemann, and I'll try to explain why:
Something unusual happened when the relationship ended:
The lawyer of Katjas family issued a statement, that "the relationship
with CP Frederik has been terminated". This had never happened before Katja,
nor did it happen after! My reaction at the time was that it was
overkill! Why go public about the break-up of a relationship, which
never was an official relationship? In hindsight, there must have been
a good reason for issuing such a statement, and this is where
Villemanns assertion fits in!

This is no proof, I know ! Unfortunately you can never get
to all the facts where royalty is concerned. That's part of the
trade if you like, the royal mystery; that's why speculations cannot
be entirely avoided when you're interested in royalty. While you
should never present speculations as facts, there's always the
grey-zone area called probability.

 

[Madame Royale]

Of course, but it's when probability or assumptions are presented as steadfast fact, that we, the consumer, have a right to question the credibility of both the discussed subject and journalist. I understand that there are occasions when evidence, for reasons of confidentiality is unable to be granted. But where has evidence been given thus far? I've seen little, to no show of it.

Certainly I wasn't in Denmark at the time, and profess not to know the reaction or ambience of the situation when it arose. But my opinion rely's on facts and not estimations of 'truth', which until proven otherwise, remain just that.

Still, I appreciate your post Viv...

 

[Jo of Palatine]

Yes, I know it for a fact. The Queen said no.

It could well be that the queen said no. But there are several explanations for her reaction. One should not forget that when it came to the marriages of Margrethe and her sisters, the succession had been changed only a short time before - any Danish husband could well have outshone his wife and become in the public eye the "real" king of Denmark, especially as it was a quite new idea for the Danes to get a queen regnant. So, yes, it was better for the princesses to marry foreigners.

And in 1995 the whole Royal world watched the War of the Waleses and the role of the media involved (Dimbleby/Panorama) - surely Margarethe must have realised that Diana had such a strong position in the UK because she was an "English rose" from one of the best families and that she would have much less support from the media and thus much less destructive power if she had been a foreigner. So it makes sense that Margrethe advised her sons to look for their wifes elsewhere and seeing the outcome of the Fergie and Diana-divorces and that of Alexandra, I guess she was proven right by history.

What I wanted to say: the fact that Margrethe might have been against marrying Danes is not necessarily based in a negative view of the Danes - she is not necessarily condescending if she thinks that way, it's rather Royal pragmatism.

 

[ysbel]

The English though still favor an English bride for their future King. Look at who William is dating.

Actually the last true foreign Princess of Wales was Alexandra of Denmark who always retained her first love for her home country of Denmark. Mary was a German princess who had been raised as an Englishwoman and Prince Philip had been raised as an Englishman.

I don't know if other countries have these unspoken rules about who their Crown Prince should marry but England and Denmark seem to have the belief that the heir to the English throne should marry an Englishwoman and the heir to the Danish throne should marry a non-Dane.

 

[ysbel]

How much does the book go into the personality of Federik IX? Margrethe seemed to adore her father but I always thought he had great similarities to George VI both good qualities and bad.

Even before the advent of tabloid journalism, there was a story about the Prime Minister having a talk with Queen Ingrid about the King's drinking. It appeared as if the throne was a bit too much for him sometimes.

He also had the misfortune of having Christian X as a father. Christian X seemed like the most unmanageable and intimidating King ever and Queen Alexandrine seemed to have her hands full with him.

Christian X was still alive when Margrethe was a child so I wonder how much this family dynamic when Margrethe was born is covered in the book. It had to have had an impact on the way the family was raised later.

 

[Lilla]

My reaction at the time was that it was
overkill! Why go public about the break-up of a relationship, which
never was an official relationship? In hindsight, there must have been
a good reason for issuing such a statement, and this is where
Villemanns assertion fits in!

I had the same reaction - overkill. But I do think the reason for the statement was to - once and for all - make the media know that the relationship had ended and consequently there was no more reason for the media to speculate. Futhermore the message could be - if the media keept on speculating they were at risk of being sued by Katjas family.

So, this is another way of interpreting the event and Villemanns assertion does not fit in to this interpretation.

Fact is nobody knows why Katjas family chose this course of action except those involvede.

No, I will not, but has it been denied by any of the partiers invlved back then? No, It hasn't!

That is IMO an empty argument.

If TRF should walk around denying every speculation made by the media - they wouldn't have time for anything else.

 

[Madame Royale]

If TRF should walk around denying every speculation made by the media

Pandering to the intrusiveness of the media would set a dangerous precedent. We think they're bad now...imagine what they'd be like if the RF openly clarified everything that went on in their lives. They'd be done for, not because of what they'd have to say but because they'd become the easy target.

The fact they don't really give much away is the best thing they can do. A dignified silence whether there's anything to say or not is certainly the best medicine. And the journo's hate it...even better...

 

[Australian]

The fact they don't really give much away is the best thing they can do. A dignified silence whether there's anything to say or not is certainly the best medicine. And the journo's hate it...even better...

That is true, silence is golden...........and the RF probably feel if they comment on all gossip, then it gives the gossip more publicity, which is defeating their purpose

 

[Lilla]

that silly family tradition.

If it was in fact a tradition - you are right - then it would be silly.

But it is not a tradition. The reasons for marrying people not born in Denmark are - as many posters on this thread has written - multiple and quit understandable. I for one have no problems with Danish Princesses comming from abroad and as I have stated before if the love of Frederik life - CP Mary - had been danish she would still have become his wife. Their is no doubt in my mind!!!!

 

[Marengo]

Well, sometimes you want to help love a bit, and steer it to another direction. It is widely said by Dutch reporters that Queen Beatrix preferred a foreign daughter-in-law too. At least it couldn't have been your neighbour, she has little friends, family etc. in the country that may talk and it makes a common daughter-in-law somehow less common. Now if the PoO would have married a Dutch barones the same thing would have been accomplished too of course, but he did not. It is a rather logical way of thinking and I can imagine that it might have come up in the head of the Queen of Denmark too. Royalty needs to be on some distanse to survive, and since they are all marrying commoners now, a foreigner at least provides some form of distance/ exotisism.

All this love talk is all fine, but the head of state has two roles in this: she is a mother and a head of state. If she does not think a girlfriend is up to the job she should do what she can to protect the institution, even if it means that it is not what her maternal instincts would say. I believe Queen Margrethe II, Queen Beatrix, King Albert II, King Juan-Carlos etc. have all done this in the past, and thank goodness that they did!

 

[Viv]

Well, sometimes you want to help love a bit, and steer it to another direction. It is widely said by Dutch reporters that Queen Beatrix preferred a foreign daughter-in-law too.

Thanks Marengo, I was wondering about the Netherlands and about to ask! The difference between NL/DK is that this principle, as I believe it is does not apply to the younger sons of the monarch!

 

[Lilla]

Well, sometimes you want to help love a bit, and steer it to another direction!

Being royal or not - I do think most parents will do so out of concern for their sons/daughters future happiness. Mine did - and thank god for that!

But, when it comes to a CP so much more are at stake and therefore the task is so much more important. It can not merely be deskribed as "a silly tradition" as Villemann does. It is about protecting both the institution and the son/daughter.

All this love talk is all fine, but the head of state has two roles in this: she is a mother and a head of state. If she does not think a girlfriend is up to the job she should do what she can to protect the institution, even if it means that it is not what her maternal instincts would say!

I totally concur.

 

[Elspeth]

I disagree . CP Frederik would never have married Mary if the DRF had not had that silly family tradition. He wanted to marry Katja in 1995, but the Queen would not give her consent, because Katja was Danish.

In reports I read at the time, it was portrayed more along the lines that the Queen thought the lingerie modelling was the problem.

In this day and age of easy international travel and intrusive investigative journalism (at least where celebrities are concerned, if not political figures, but that's another story), I don't see where there's anything to be gained from insisting on a foreign bride. Both Alexandra's and Mary's immediate families ended up in Denmark anyway, and if there were skeletons in the closets of either of the ladies concerned, you can bet that some tabloid reporter or other would have splashed them all over the front pages.

 

[Al_bina]

I disagree . CP Frederik would never have married Mary if the DRF had not had that silly family tradition. He wanted to marry Katja in 1995, but the Queen would not give her consent, because Katja was Danish.

Personally I do not think that Crown Princess Frederic loved Katja enough to stand for her. The bright exapmle is that of Crown Prince Haakon, who did insist on marrying the person he loves in spite of unfavourable factors such a child and tarnished reputation. Crown Prince Frederic married Miss Donadlson without being pressured into doing so. I highly doubt that he followed his mother's order.

 

[Odette]

The English though still favor an English bride for their future King. Look at who William is dating.

Actually the last true foreign Princess of Wales was Alexandra of Denmark who always retained her first love for her home country of Denmark. Mary was a German princess who had been raised as an Englishwoman and Prince Philip had been raised as an Englishman.

I don't know if other countries have these unspoken rules about who their Crown Prince should marry but England and Denmark seem to have the belief that the heir to the English throne should marry an Englishwoman and the heir to the Danish throne should marry a non-Dane.

I have to admit I have no opinion on the subject and did not read the book yet. However I wonder if at the time, Margrethe, Benedikte and Anne Marie were coming of age, if there were any eligible Danish nobles or aristocrats they could have married without contracting unequal marriages.

 

[Viv]

However I wonder if at the time, Margrethe, Benedikte and Anne Marie were coming of age, if there were any eligible Danish nobles or aristocrats they could have married without contracting unequal marriages.

There were no doubt some eligible Danish nobles in the 1960s, but I
don't know whether these paths were ever explored! I take it that
they would have been barred by the foreign-spouse principle as well!
Any such marriage would have been unequal by the old standards.

 

[Odette]

There were no doubt some eligible Danish nobles in the 1960s, but I
don't know whether these paths were ever explored! I take it that
they would have been barred by the foreign-spouse principle as well!
Any such marriage would have been unequal by the old standards.

Thank you Viv. I suppose then P Anne Marie did not give time for anyone to question her choices. She gave an interview much later and said that if Theodora had announced at 16 that she was getting engaged, she'd be very surprised and upset........

 

[Charlotte1]

Well Queen Margrethe has repeated the whole 'Danish royals marrying foreigner's rule? tradition? understanding? Whatever people prefer to call it. From the new book Three Sisters by historian Jon Bloch Skipper who interviewed Margrethe, Benedikte and Anne-Marie for the book. Taken from an extract from Billed Bladet

Queen Margrethe: "I think that was the one understood thing in our childhood, that we married someone who had not been brought up in Denmark. We three sisters knew instinctively that it would probably be a bright thing if we did not fall head over heels in love with a Dane. And that's how it still is. It's a good idea".
Royalty or not is not a problem when marrying.

 

[Lilla]

Personally I do not think that Crown Princess Frederic loved Katja enough to stand for her. The bright exapmle is that of Crown Prince Haakon, who did insist on marrying the person he loves in spite of unfavourable factors such a child and tarnished reputation. Crown Prince Frederic married Miss Donadlson without being pressured into doing so. I highly doubt that he followed his mother's order.

I totally concur!

Queen Margrethe: "I think that was the one understood thing in our childhood, that we married someone who had not been brought up in Denmark. We three sisters knew instinctively that it would probably be a bright thing if we did not fall head over heels in love with a Dane. And that's how it still is. It's a good idea".

Exactly - I concur with that as well!

Marrying spouses brought up outside Denmark isn't a "tradition" as Villeman claims or a "foreign-spouse principle" as Viv has written nor it is an order issued by the Queen to her two sons. It is simply a very good idea!!

 

[Villemann]

I totally concur!



Exactly - I concur with that as well!

Marrying spouses brought up outside Denmark isn't a "tradition" as Villeman claims or a "foreign-spouse principle" as Viv has written nor it is an order issued by the Queen to her two sons. It is simply a very good idea!!

When something has been done in a family for several generations, I think the correct term is "tradition." And this tradition is a lousy idea. It has had huge personal consequences for both Frederik and Joachim, which you would know if you had read my book!

In reports I read at the time, it was portrayed more along the lines that the Queen thought the lingerie modelling was the problem.

In this day and age of easy international travel and intrusive investigative journalism (at least where celebrities are concerned, if not political figures, but that's another story), I don't see where there's anything to be gained from insisting on a foreign bride. Both Alexandra's and Mary's immediate families ended up in Denmark anyway, and if there were skeletons in the closets of either of the ladies concerned, you can bet that some tabloid reporter or other would have splashed them all over the front pages.

Exactly, Elspeth. There is nothing to be gained, yet the Queen would not give her consent for Frederik to marry Katja because she was Danish. It was not the underwear. It was her nationality. Katja comes from a very well respected family. Her father, Mogens, has known prince Henrik for years. They are a lovely family and Frederik was extremely fond of all of them. He recently met Katja's parents in Beijing and stopped for a long chat. The Storkholms would not in any way, shape or form have embarrassed the royal house. It was all because of this sily family tradition.

 

[Lilla]

It has had huge personal consequences for both Frederik and Joachim, which you would know if you had read my book!

As I have written earlier - when you postulated I had not read your book - I borrowed it at the library and have read parts of it - not all - but enough.

Futhermore your book isn't the ever lasting version of the truth, which you would know if you had read all the posts on this thread and also used just a bit of common sense.

When it comes to your claim of "huge personal consequences for both Frederik and Joachim"......this is entirely speculations made by you -nothing else.