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Old 06-28-2014, 08:59 AM
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Originally Posted by LadyFinn View Post
One can always hope that but I don't see it happen.
I have followed the swedish royal family for a long time and I respect the work the king, queen, Victoria and Daniel are doing. So it makes me extremely sad to read headlines like: The hottest European royal: Sofia Hellqvist, Swedish porn princess.
Very true. Of course she will be princess, no doubt of this. She LOVES the attention. I am suprised by the King giving her a title , not by her accepting it. If it is true that they will live where once Lilian and Bertil lived it's a total shame. Somone like her in Lilian's home

Originally Posted by HRHHermione View Post
Why should she? She's marrying him and there's no reason on earth she shouldn't share his title.

I think it's absurd to ask that she volunteer to give up something that goes along with marrying into this family just because you dislike her personally.

Why not ask her to go about in sackcloth and ashes with a big A on her chest while you're at it?

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If she can be princess everybody can. Chris gave it up and he is very respectable. You have nothing to fear, she will be a royal that's for sure
"Yet, walking free upon her own estate
Still,in her solitude, she is the Queen".
Old 06-28-2014, 09:03 AM
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Originally Posted by Lee-Z View Post
Being a royal does not automatically bring grace or dignity, plenty of examples of that in the past.
In the NL for years the RF-popularity list has been topped by a 'non-royal' (first P.Claus, husband to Q.Beatrix, now Q.Maxima)..
I agree that the "mystique" surrounding royals has been fading, but that's not new, for me it's a sign of a changing world...

I'm pretty sure if the royals (at least the europeans) would hold on to the status and lifestyle they had hundreds of years ago, that would be the end of quite a few of monarchies...

Don't get me wrong, i get that Sofia is not everyone's idea of a country-representative, but each and every european royal has been criticized for one thing or another in the past and personally of all the flaws that there are i prefer "childhood indecencies" to several other royal indiscretions...
I do understand where your coming from as sometimes I have often wondered why other monarchies/royals that have gone to ashes(ie:Greece, etc.) that so many people today treat these people that used to be royals like they are still royal. They might have the heritage behind them, yet they still feel that they should be treated differently then non-royals which is what they are. What I am trying to say is that........I feel all people are equal and should be treated as equal yet there are people that should be treated differently if and when they do something for the good of all mankind and that doesn't mean making a darn movie or throwing a ball for none of that is for the good of mankind. I love ancient history, and yet I have come to the conclusion that this is the human race and even though times change, we human will continue to do the very same thing as our ancestors just in different time and place. Times change and the human thought process will always remain the same.
Old 06-28-2014, 09:13 AM
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Has she ever commented publicly on people's views of her? If so, what did she have to say about it? Presumably, she was able to weather the storms. Or is it a case of she doesn't give a hoot what people think of her.

Judging by the pictures yesterday, she looks like she doesn't have a care in the world! Just wondering what her opinion is of all the public reactions? Carl Philip comes across as rather timid.
Old 06-28-2014, 09:45 AM
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Originally Posted by Duc_et_Pair View Post
There is a LOT of negativity, resentment and critics towards Mette-Marit. It does not filter down to the anglosaxon media but when you are in Norway you will hear or feel little posivity about Mette Marit. At best she is tolerated as Crown Prince Haakon's choice of his heart but the Norwegians are hard: "Don't pretend you are royal, girl, you were just a waitress in Kristiansand, you have served me a latte macchiato and now you are the future Queen?"

I’m sorry, but how many Norwegians have you actually met in order to give such a generalized view on how the Norwegians feel about Mette-Marit? Do you spend a lot of time in Norway? I come from Norway, I’ve lived in different places in Norway and I speak Norwegian, and I’ve not encountered such attitudes as you are describing, at least not in the last 10 years. They may be true for some people, like there is diversity in every country, but they are not representative of all of Norway. My experience is that Mette-Marit is a respected member of the royal family, she’s not perfect and she could do things differently, but she has done a good job from where she once was. If there is a negative feeling surrounding Mette-Marit then that has more to do with recent issues and not that she used to be a waitress.

Congratulations to Carl Philip and Sofia as well, since that is what the thread is about.
Old 06-28-2014, 10:24 AM
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Originally Posted by Lee-Z View Post


In the NL for years the RF-popularity list has been topped by a 'non-royal' (first P.Claus, husband to Q.Beatrix, now Q.Maxima)..

Claus von Amsberg came from a long way. He entered the Netherlands with a lot of hostility. It was not too difficult to become the most popular royal, with a respected but demanding Queen, three adolescent boys, elderly parents (Juliana and Bernhard) from which one was already fading away in dementia and the rest only visible so now and then. For years the Prince has seldomly been visible and when he was visible, it was sorry, pity and empathy with that vulnerable, ailing, sweet man, doing his best.

Máxima has an amazing charisma, no one can deny it. But we can not say that another partner of the Prince -now King- would not have enjoyed the same popularity. It is not about personal popularity or likeability. It is about the fundament of what is still 'royal' or not. But even the humble aristocrat Claus had all his parents, grandparents and great-grandparents with noble quarters: Von Amsberg, Von Passow, Von Vieregge, Von Gutschmidt, Von dem Bussche-Haddenhausen, Von Salviati, Von dem Bussche-Ippenburg and Von Chelius are all enlisted in the Adelsbuch.
Old 06-28-2014, 10:33 AM
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The difference with Ms Hellqvist and Mr O'Neill is that the first one is a female and subjected to "social custom" in which female spouses of titled gentlemen are addressed with their husband's titles. So Ms Hellqvist automatically becomes Princess of Sweden and Duchess of Värmland by marriage. Mr O'Neill, like all male spouses to titled ladies, is not subjected to "social custom". So the King could have done the same to him as to his other son-in-law Mr Westling but apparently Mr O'Neill felt no need for such an arrangement. Ms Hellqvist however has nothing to ask, she will automatically be referred by her spouse's titles, exactly like Ms Craig became Princess Lilian of Sweden, Duchess of Halland.
Old 06-28-2014, 10:38 AM
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Well, isn't the Swedish succession gender neutral now? I believe all that they offered Jonas B. to share Madeleine's dukedom, not to become an HRH and prince.
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Old 06-28-2014, 11:25 AM
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There is no automaticity, legally speaking, to Swedish royal titles. The monarch may exercise his full discretion.
Old 06-28-2014, 01:05 PM
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Originally Posted by Marengo View Post
Well, isn't the Swedish succession gender neutral now? I believe all that they offered Jonas B. to share Madeleine's dukedom, not to become an HRH and prince.
That is true but it is still no social custom. Mr Pieter van Vollenhoven can address himself with his spouse's titles but would make himself the focus for a good round of national laughing.
Old 06-28-2014, 02:41 PM
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Originally Posted by Pranter View Post
There is no such thing as a 'royal gene'. Being American I don't think royals are any different than any other person except they have more advantages financially/educationally than others do....and as we have seen over and over they carry on just as badly as 'non-royals' even with the advantages at their disposal.

I think it's hypocritical that some are carrying on like Sophia is this horrible choice...some of the things royals have gotten up to are just as bad or worse. No one is calling for them to be stripped of their titles or saying they are unsuitable for marrying.

I would imagine more and more people are coming to believe there is nothing really magical or special about royals which is, IMO, why you see royals being considered on the same level as famous people (movie stars etc) and nothing more.


Royals, however, are not just "famous people" or "financially advantaged people". In fact, most European royal families are not even particularly wealthy (on a personal level) compared to countless billionaires and even multimillionaires spread around the world.

Maybe that is not very clear to people who live in republics and who don't fully grasp how monarchies work at a constitutional level, but, what really sets royals apart from the rest of society is that they are part of an exclusive state institution. The King (or Queen), as the Head of State, holds a public office that has several key responsibilities attached to it, but, unlike other offices, happens to be hereditary in the descendants of a given family. Considering that the heir apparent may one day succeed to that office, what he/she does, and whom he/she dates or marries is not just a private matter, but a state affair. Hence, the usual legal requirement that royal marriages be approved by the King and the government or parliament.

In theory, other royal princes who are further down in the line of succession, like Carl Philip or Harry for example, wouldn't need to be subject to same level of scrutiny as their older siblings. but they still take up official public duties on behalf of the King/Queen and have to conform to certain standards that are compatible with the institution to which they belong.
Old 06-28-2014, 02:46 PM
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Originally Posted by Duc_et_Pair View Post
I wish the couple happiness. Totally apart from how lovelty, sweet, charming, warm and embraceable these people are. The core essence of what differentiates the difference between royals/nobles and us, mortal commoners, is eroding away. A certain point will be reached that people will wonder why we still treat these people as royals, bow to them, handle them with all égards, pay millions for a "dignified workings of the institution" and support the principle of hereditary succession as all what is royal, traditional, historical or what has to do with dignity, honorability is thrown out of the palace windows.

This makes it more and more difficult for me to remain interested in royalty and nobility. It becomes more and more just the same as commenting on outfits worn by Charlize Theron or Angelina Jolie. It is a sad development and it is fast going downhill. Rapid gained popularity (the cinderella scenario) comes at the cost of long standing respect for an institution.

Now Beatrix, Albert II and Juan Carlos have left the royal stage, it becomes more and more superficial. I have no negative feelings against Máxima, Letizia, Mary. But again and again when I see them, I think: "Girl... you are just playing, you are just pretending, you are NO royal". I can never loose that feeling. Not so long ago the aunts of Carl Philip, or the aunts of Haakon were forced to leave the Royal House because they wanted to marry very respected partners but not meeting the high standards. Now we see that there are no standards anymore... My interest in royalty and nobility is fading away, very fast. I have no interest in Miss Casiraghi, Miss Behn or Miss Phillips.

Well, my impression would be that the royal families become more 'grounded'. Loosing their aloofness, so to say. Still showing a big heart and traditions, but more approachable. Maybe a bit more Monaco-style, but personally I like this personal touch.

The balcony scene ... good grief ... I wish everyone would just see a happy couple, full of joy, glad to be together.

The suitability of Sofia ... I doubt she will do many foreign trips. Maybe a ceremony here or there, but surely no longer journeys to improve or maintain diplomatic contacts. Do you remember the Brunei-remark of Carl XVI. Gustav? So even he droped a clanger and it was decided that from then on he would travel only in attendance of a member of the government. So no, I don't believe there will be any missions for Sofia in the forseeable future. But then who cares ...

Let the couple be happy
and all the best for their future.
Old 06-28-2014, 03:10 PM
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Originally Posted by angieuk View Post
is it a case of she doesn't give a hoot what people think of her. Judging by the pictures yesterday, she looks like she doesn't have a care in the world! Just wondering what her opinion is of all the public reactions? Carl Philip comes across as rather timid.
Originally Posted by Kit View Post
I think I will have to watch the whole engagement video cause the small clip I have seen yesterday on TV actually made me feel a bit uncomfortable. Sofia was gesticulating a lot to show her ring to the press and demonstrating with her hands how much she loved CP accompanied with some body moves. It was a bit bizarre to say the least.
Yes, the key is Sofia's eyes. And Carl Philip's.

I have a question: why wasn't Sofia's mother beaming? Why isn't she thrilled? Maybe it's the Swedish way - but she looked like she was anything but pleased, more worried - but that could just be her.

I can only speak for myself and not everyone will agree - but I have no problem with a stripper or 'porn star'. Not as a point of honor. It's not about that imo. It's about who she is now, and has always been. The reality show wasn't even 10 years ago - all her choices are not nested in some far away time of callow youth. Who she was in 2006 she is now 8 years later - and one can see it in her behavior - and her eyes - during that interview. Methinks Sofia doesn't 'get' many things - and this is who Carl Philip loves and wants. So be it.

I recall it reported that when Victoria was choosing Daniel, her father apparently told her that she should make her choices for herself, not the monarchy (along those lines) because the monarchy may not always be there, but the results of her choices for her personal life she would always have to deal with. Better to be personally happy, I think he was saying, than unhappy for the sake of the monarchy. So to Carl Philip he would say the same thing I would guess - though observing the SRF for awhile, I would't be so certain on what anyone is thinking, one can only go by actions.

And going by actions - at the concert before the marriage of Madeleine and Chris, all three couples were photographed/videoed from afar. I think we can safely say that Carl Philip's sisters - Madeleine in particular - have a perspective that is not positive regarding Sofia - not because of her past, but because of who Sofia is as an experience on a daily basis. That's pretty common in families - at least in mine. I've had a couple of in-laws I haven't been keen on and wondered what alien transplant had taken place with my dear relative who had chosen such a person. In one case, I admit I was wrong - in another, my relative came to their senses and a divorce took place, but it was sad it had to take place that way to begin with and hard to watch while it went on (until to everyone's relief, it ended).
Old 06-28-2014, 03:20 PM
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GREAT post Lady Nimue, you have really thought this through!
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Old 06-28-2014, 04:31 PM
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She was a nude model who ran with hard core porn stars....A good amount of sleaze ball's, opportunists and con artists are probably going to start crawling out of the wood work to sell stories, true or not. Strip club aside, this could be worse.
Old 06-28-2014, 04:51 PM
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Hopefully this won't be deleted.
I think that one of the reasons I was so judgmental about Sofia's past was when you hear the words porn star there is a certain image that comes to mind, and it is not of a choir girl! I just could not wrap my mind around from porn star to Princess.
I dislike some of her actions but I hope to like her.
She is not a harm to anybody.
And I don't have to live in their palace.
Old 06-28-2014, 05:13 PM
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She did many tacky things, but she *wasn't* a 'porn-star' (getting a deja-vu of many similar discussions on the 'CP and girlfriend Sofia' thread)
Old 06-28-2014, 05:16 PM
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No, Sofia wasn't a porn star and those false accusations isn't fair at all.

Old 06-28-2014, 05:20 PM
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Lady Nimue I totally agree with all you wrote. A very insightful post. I also think she makes him happy and he really loves her. I actually do even think that she loves him. It's just that sometimes I have the feeling Sofia is a bit more in love with the idea of being the wife of a prince than with the prince himself. I still remember her behaviour at Estelle's christening. But hey I could be wrong and despite my lukewarm feelings about this engagement I really do wish them all the best.
Old 06-28-2014, 05:29 PM
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Its best to meet the person face to face than judge a person by a set of pictures. prince Carl Philip and his family know Sofia better than anyone on here and that's all that counts. The rest is pretty senseless.

Old 06-28-2014, 05:38 PM
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By porn star I mean someone who does such images and risqué videos. By my family's definition ,she was a porn star.
In a post I wrote last night that was deleted, I said that I was wrong for judging so harshly. I did so because what Sofia did was wrong for me. There is personally no situation that would ever cause me to do what she did, and feel OK. But there is a gray area. I am not in her shoes. I don't know her or her motives. I don't know the Prince's.
Until I know more, I should not judge whether I like her. I do not like her actions. But I hope to like her.
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