Discussion about Sofia Hellqvist's Past & Future Role in the Royal Family

[Skippy]

I know that I am very opinionated when it comes to SH, and I will be honest, I don't like her period. When I saw some of those pictures and read articles that her mother said *go for it*, a mother is suppose to guide her daughter in this ugly world of men and she certainly did not. So my gut tells me that SH, when she got introduced to PCP, her mind went to work and she got the ring......I think she is very calculating and street smart and knows the way to get a man and this was a great catch for her. No I can't prove it, it's just my gut/instinct telling me this. I trust my gut feelings, saved me many times.

Well, at least you admit to being very opiniated and so actually Sofia has to take your rap because her mother failed to do with her daughter what she should have done according to you. Fair enough. Only because someone wasn't guided in the way you deem appropriate, it doesn't mean they should be condemned or ejected.
And "this ugly world of men"? Are all men beasts and women damsels in distress?

Time will tell if your gut feelings are right or wrong this time.

 

[Nice Nofret]

I am a PR-Consultant, and I can asure you, that no company, no diplomatic corps with any standing would ever consider taking s.o. with Sofias past into consideration to let her/him represent them.

It's not about morals; it's not about 'jelousy'. Its about been taken serious, it's about as how we want to be percieved. And it's about that the representative for should represent (!) and not stear the limelight away from the cause / institution / company.

A royal family is nothing less and nothing more than the represantans of their country and their people. And as such shouldn't be too much in the media as 'people' or persons in their own right ; - that is what celebrities are for. To be known for who / what they are.

Of COURSE the media likes to portray members of RF as people / persons - because it sells well. But as the RF are NOT represantatives or payed by the media - it is simply NOT their job!


So why should the swedish people asked to do that? CP can marry whom ever he wishes and live happyly ever after as Mr & Ms Bernadotte. And of course Sofia has a nice smile and a beautiful body, and nows how to pose... (which is part or the problem).

 

[angieuk]

http://svenskdam.se/2014/07/svensk-...te-en-elak-kommentar-om-sofia-hellqvist-till/

The magazine (Sweden); says no more nasty comments will be allowed!

I think Sofia needs some good friends now in her corner. How about the Duchess of Cambridge, and Princess Charlene of Monaco, who have both been at the end of unkind press stories. I think Sofia needs a big hug, and a kind word. I believe Victoria is a kind and warm person who will offer support to Sofa in the future. I am sure the Queen will help all she can.

 

[SElizabeth]

Well, at least you admit to being very opiniated and so actually Sofia has to take your rap because her mother failed to do with her daughter what she should have done according to you. Fair enough. Only because someone wasn't guided in the way you deem appropriate, it doesn't mean they should be condemned or ejected.
And "this ugly world of men"? Are all men beasts and women damsels in distress?

Time will tell if your gut feelings are right or wrong this time.

A royal family *represents* a country and the people, this isn't something new, royal family are suppose to have this kind of mystic about them, this has been done since the beginning of royal families. They even intermarry to keep the family safe/pure/whatever. In looking at history yes, there are lots of ugly people in royal families and most of them are arranged marriages: case in point, I think Charles and Diana in a way was an arranged marriage, so with this mystic, they need the people/public to keep themselves on the throne. If royal families start having all kinds of people coming into the family and some of them have past that are questionable to say the least, then people are going to start thinking and questioning about the reasons for a royal family. Most people want the royal family to be someone who will represent them around the world and have good standing among the people.
I am not saying that there aren't problems in royal families, yet why go looking for problems. In time most royal families will come to an end, and there will be very few left. In this day and age, people are calling for a republic even if they don't know what a republic is. They get the idea that a republic will solve all the problems, so ends the royal family, whether it's by the hardship of the people or by the self destruction of the royal family itself.
I honestly don't know of or think there is a family out there that would really want their son to bring SH home as bride, into the family whether they are royal or not. Most mothers want their son to marry a nice girl, someone who will fit into a family(this isn't about doing royal functions), someone who will be welcome buy all members of the family. There are traditions in a family that can go on for generations, and the bride should fit in. We don't know really how the Swedish royal family feels about SH, pictures have been know to lie, smiles don't reach the eyes, body language tells stories, so no one here knows for sure how KCG and QS and the rest of them think. From what I have read is that KCG does and has favored his son over his daughters, (the old world thinking again that a son is better then a daughter), being an old man I would guess that is his view, PCP will get anything and everything he wants from his father, and SH is what he wants. How is this going to effect the royal family standing among the rest of the royal families in the world, don't even want to go there........I can imagine some are having a large chuckle when they heard, a porn model marrying into a the SRF......what next?
And Skippy, something you should know about me, I am not afraid to say what I feel or admit that I am an ole oppionated lady. And as for the term *Ugly world of men*, that comes from reading all those darn history books and life's experiences, the male species has destroyed more on this earth then a hundred women ever could. The wars, the rapes, the horror that entire races of people that have been destroyed, the crimes of even today and the suffering, this is all done by men, men control this world, the majority of our world leaders are men, and just take a darn good look at what this world looks like, not a very nice nor safe place most of the time for millions of people.

 

[Duke of Marmalade]

Honestly, what can the SRF do? CG is in no position to tell his son off (given his own shortcomings in the moral department), neither is Silvia. CP is 35 and the second child, he will come nowhere near the throne. The person you chose to live with is your business and your business alone, from a private perspective. For public persons representing a country its a different matter. Having said that, CG would never take away his son's title, he is who he is, and I do not think that CP would honestly consider becoming 'Mr Bernadotte'. I hope they do not make Sofia HRH Princess of Sweden but everybody has to put up with the rest.
It won't serve the monarchy idea that the next best glamour model can become a princess but I think long-term, monarchy is dated and on the way out anyway. Maybe Estelle will be Queen in 40 years, but after that? Sofia may make the decline a bit faster.

 

[angieuk]

SDT1428_HiResFiles

Next year will be very exciting. I think it will be the only Royal Wedding of 2015.

I think people used her, and I blame them, not her, as they took advantage of her good nature. She said they kept calling her, (she said in an interview). I can't help liking her, and to me, she comes across as very vulnerable. Now she has a Prince, no less, to protect her.

 

[Skippy]

A royal family *represents* a country and the people, this isn't something new, royal family are suppose to have this kind of mystic about them, this has been done since the beginning of royal families. They even intermarry to keep the family safe/pure/whatever. In looking at history yes, there are lots of ugly people in royal families and most of them are arranged marriages: case in point, I think Charles and Diana in a way was an arranged marriage, so with this mystic, they need the people/public to keep themselves on the throne. If royal families start having all kinds of people coming into the family and some of them have past that are questionable to say the least, then people are going to start thinking and questioning about the reasons for a royal family. Most people want the royal family to be someone who will represent them around the world and have good standing among the people.
I am not saying that there aren't problems in royal families, yet why go looking for problems. In time most royal families will come to an end, and there will be very few left. In this day and age, people are calling for a republic even if they don't know what a republic is. They get the idea that a republic will solve all the problems, so ends the royal family, whether it's by the hardship of the people or by the self destruction of the royal family itself.
I honestly don't know of or think there is a family out there that would really want their son to bring SH home as bride, into the family whether they are royal or not. Most mothers want their son to marry a nice girl, someone who will fit into a family(this isn't about doing royal functions), someone who will be welcome buy all members of the family. There are traditions in a family that can go on for generations, and the bride should fit in. We don't know really how the Swedish royal family feels about SH, pictures have been know to lie, smiles don't reach the eyes, body language tells stories, so no one here knows for sure how KCG and QS and the rest of them think. From what I have read is that KCG does and has favored his son over his daughters, (the old world thinking again that a son is better then a daughter), being an old man I would guess that is his view, PCP will get anything and everything he wants from his father, and SH is what he wants. How is this going to effect the royal family standing among the rest of the royal families in the world, don't even want to go there........I can imagine some are having a large chuckle when they heard, a porn model marrying into a the SRF......what next?
And Skippy, something you should know about me, I am not afraid to say what I feel or admit that I am an ole oppionated lady. And as for the term *Ugly world of men*, that comes from reading all those darn history books and life's experiences, the male species has destroyed more on this earth then a hundred women ever could. The wars, the rapes, the horror that entire races of people that have been destroyed, the crimes of even today and the suffering, this is all done by men, men control this world, the majority of our world leaders are men, and just take a darn good look at what this world looks like, not a very nice nor safe place most of the time for millions of people.

I didn't mean that you are unallowed to say what you feel; I only said that your way of expressing it goes -imo- very far and your post does acknowledge the feeling I got from your posts.
I don't feel the need to either go with or against you. Your opinion is yours and mine is mine.
I only hope that the part about "ugly world of men" wasn't meant in a belittling way because I see and hear plenty of things to have a worldwide view. I just don't see it the way you do.

 

[Skippy]

Honestly, what can the SRF do? CG is in no position to tell his son off (given his own shortcomings in the moral department), neither is Silvia. CP is 35 and the second child, he will come nowhere near the throne. The person you chose to live with is your business and your business alone, from a private perspective. For public persons representing a country its a different matter. Having said that, CG would never take away his son's title, he is who he is, and I do not think that CP would honestly consider becoming 'Mr Bernadotte'. I hope they do not make Sofia HRH Princess of Sweden but everybody has to put up with the rest.
It won't serve the monarchy idea that the next best glamour model can become a princess but I think long-term, monarchy is dated and on the way out anyway. Maybe Estelle will be Queen in 40 years, but after that? Sofia may make the decline a bit faster.

In that respect monarchies have changed a looong time ago.

 

[crm2317]

Does anyone else find themselves really hoping that Victoria and Daniel produce a few more children?


Sent from my iPhone using The Royals Community mobile app

 

[Nice Nofret]

oh yes, and very fast - and the more, the better

 

[Archduchess Zelia]

I hope that you would have felt that same way also if Chris O’Neill had been a "glamour model" instead of an investment banker. If he would have been a well known fame seeker with a odd CV (TV-reality show, posing in nude photos, chosen as Mr. Slitz, not working fulltime, going from a party to another party).
For me that would have been even more difficult to accept than this Sofia case. Somehow it is easier to accept that a woman does nude or bikini photos than a man, at least for me. And men are often allowed more easily to marry "lower than themselves" than women.

Indeed I would, but I somehow don't think he would have gotten nearly as much crap for it as Sofia is currently getting. Also I don't see how this has anything to do with my comment about internalized sexism whatsoever.

A lady knows to keep her mouth shut, not pose nude and kiss women on the lips and do the things that she did. She has not learned to act or behave like a lady.

Oh please, "A lady knows to keep her mouth shut" and not "kiss women on the lips" – where do you live, in the 18th century? Sofia is just as much a lady as you and I are. Just because she doesn't live up to your (seemingly rather misogynistic) standards for women, doesn't make her any less of a lady

You know what? When women think they are better than other women because they are "ladies" who "behave", it makes me want to actually gouge my own eyes out because that is pretty much just reinforcing the patriarchal idea that women should be obedient and "good" and it is just incredibly sad.

 

[Empress Merel]

Some points about it.

- I don't think at all that all women working in sex industry are unworthy persons. Actually, I do know one of them. Although I don't approve at all her job, she is quite close to me. And I can say this : she never said her children the true nature of her job. Her children don't know in what industry their mother is working. That is saying much. She had no other choice than working in sex industry due to life events but she does not see it as a suitable career path for her children.

- A decision to be a prostitute/glamour model/escort is not only on woman's hands. On the contrary, in most of the case, prostitution means women slavery and mafia, and lot of difficulties to escape.

- Exposing a naked body may be seen as the ultimate freedom gained through feminist fight. There are other opinions about it. If my country was a monarchy and a former nude model was to marry into the royal family and become a princess, I can assure you that the strongest disagreement would not come from our local Tea Party but from all the people working with sexual abuses victims. I remember very well a discussion with one of them who talked about her disgust to see a naked girl in every car magazine. She suffered the worst and would be ready to demonstrate and talk with every journalist interested about how promoting nude models is an insult to her sufferings. She is not the only one to see in nudity promotion nothing else than something complying to masculine pulsions. There are studies - not made by bigot researchers - proving clearly the links between promoting nude women pictures and sexual violences and abuses. That is not bigotry. If I were Swedish, I would demonstrate with my friend and say the royal family : "miss Hellqvist, please have a long talk with victims about their feelings on nude women pictures, please come and take part to NGO activities on this matter".

The fact that your friend does not tell her children what type of work she does is also on her. That's a decision she personally made (that might come to haunt her later on, I might add) and should not reflect everybody else.

And I think I already made the point of being forced into it. I'm very much aware that many women resort to the sex industry as a last resort or were made to do so by a pimp. Does not mean there are no women who actively chose that profession. Like Sasha Grey.

I do agree that pretty much 90% that relates to the female body is for the male gaze but not allowing women to pose nude if they want to do so is not helping the case. Parents should teach their sons that women are not objects and we should all be treated with respect. Women are not the problem, men are.

 

[Cris M]

And where do you think the royal family gets it's money, from the *taxpayer* and that is the darn truth, plain and simple..........
You think PCP really works, say a 9/5 to job......
I don't have to prove anything and I am not saying anything that isn't a fact, written and reported in the media. How does the king and Queen live in the huge palace and not have money, their money comes from the
*TAXPAYER*, heck the media complains about the cost of the security for his daughter's wedding, the cost that the people paid for.........

The Royal Family's money come from the taxpayer and from private wealth accumulated through the centuries.

A Swedish poster has already said each Swedish pay a dollar for the Royal Family. No one know how much Prince Carl Philip receives. His workload is what I expect for a Prince in his position in a Royal Family like the Swedish one, that's very slimmed down and the stars are The Regent and Crown Princely Couples.

And when was the last time you conducted a poll in Sweden to say the taxpayers are not satisfied with the costs of the Royal Family? And, if the medias and comments from people on online papers pages show the truth, Queen Elizabeth II should banish The Prince of Wales and The Duchess of Cornwall from the land and nominate The Duke of Cambridge as the next King.

 

[Marengo]

This thread has been cleaned up is reopened. Several comments were deleted. A reminder:

1. Don't insult each other.

2. Repetative posts will be deleted. No need to repeat again, again and again and again what you think. Most will have understood it the first time.

3. OT topics like 'commoners vs royals' or the delights or horrors of the Duchess of Cornwall will be deleted.

4. Comments with parallel truths and universes will be deleted. For example: people repeat again and again that the king is traumatized by CP not being the heir. A 'truth' that isn't one. Let's keep things realistic and not develop imaginary scenario's of what people may be thinking.

5. Everybody is entitled to their opinion. But no need to use words like 'disgusting' 'awful' etc. to refer to the people in question. There must be more clever ways to discuss the matter.

6. And again, most importantly: don't insult each other. If you feel the urge to call names etc.: don't! Take a break, you are taking this too seriously.

7. The Swedish mod. team has been rather patient. But since the engagement will take another year, the present way of debating can not continue. We will enforce the above requirements strictly. Ignoring them will lead to a deletion of a post and possibly to warnings or the revocation of posting rights. If you can't behave yourself: do not post in this thread!

- Note that any replies to this message will be deleted. If you have questions or remarks you can contact one of the Swedish moderators.

 

[LadyFinn]

Here is the article about the founder of Project Playground, Frida Vesterberg, from 7th November 2011.

She started Project Playground about two years ago. It is an after-school, where children in the township of Langa in Cape Town in South Africa can come and be just children.
Frida has always had a strong desire to help vulnerable people. She did her Master's dissertation in political science about the kids in the townships of Cape Town and after it she worked as a volunteer in the same area. There became the idea for Project Playground.
Frida says that it took her several years to accept that she probably can't alone save the world.
- That's why I "teamed up" with Sofia, together we can make a difference, Frida hopes.
Möt tre svenskor som gör skillnad i världen - Icakuriren - Kropp & själ
Translation

So the idea of Project Playground was Fridas, she started it.

 

[Icea]

^Frida came up with the idea, but it doesn't say anywhere that she started Project Playground on her own. I have only read on this forum that Sofia was added as "co-founder" on the website later and that she wasn't around when the project started, but are there any links/articles that say the same thing?

The article you linked to more or less states that Frida came up with the idea, but it wasn't until she teamed up with Sofia that they could turn those ideas into reality.

 

[angieuk]

Sofia is now a Royal Bride To Be! Yes, Victoria will always be popular, but all eyes will be on Sofia from now on, as the press find her more interesting to write about.

 

[LadyFinn]

^Frida came up with the idea, but it doesn't say anywhere that she started Project Playground on her own. I have only read on this forum that Sofia was added as "co-founder" on the website later and that she wasn't around when the project started, but are there any links/articles that say the same thing?

The article you linked to more or less states that Frida came up with the idea, but it wasn't until she teamed up with Sofia that they could turn those ideas into reality.

The article (made in November 2011) says that Frida founded Project Playground about two years ago, so one could read it "in the autumn 2009". It doesn't say exact time like "in the beginning of 2010".
Project Playground tells on their website that it was founded in 2010, nothing more. It has been registered to authorities in March 2010. Of course it is also possible that the organization had another name before that.

Expressen wrote on 15th May 2010, that "Sofia has been keeping a low profile lately but is has been reported to Extra that she is starting up a charity organization in Africa".
Sofia Hellqvist sover över hos Carl Philip Extra Expressen

Old photos of Sofia
Photo from 2002
http://images.mmcloud.se/api/v1/images/17cc04de-449c-46ff-abe7-e99391bb5baa/900.jpg

And from her first post of her volunteer job in Ghana in autumn 2009
http://www.synkcasting.se/news/wp-content/uploads/2009/09/n869450206_3732511_3827.jpg

 

[Marty91charmed]

it was in Ghana when she said that atrocious thing about the rape right?

 

[Archduchess Zelia]

it was in Ghana when she said that atrocious thing about the rape right?

I've asked you before about this (in comment #167 to be exact) and, to the best of my knowledge, you have failed to answer me. My question, however, still stands – when making allegations as serious as that (the things she allegedly said are absolutely horrific), do you mind providing a source that isn't the blog that is notoriously anti-Sofia (and doesn't provide any sources to back their claims themselves)?

 

[JessRulz]

Marengo went and found the article that had the quote in one of the old Sofia threads. Found in post #172.

So, yes, the rape quote wasn't exactly how it has been portrayed elsewhere.

 

[Archduchess Zelia]

Thank you! And also a great thanks to Marengo for clarifying

I couldn't imagine she could have said that girls "should work on their self-esteem so they will be better able to say no" – which truly is an horrendous thing to say – without it had been heavily reported in the media. I hope this can put an end to the vile allegations.

 

[MARG]

Seems like a typical case of the media making milage by quoting only part of her statement which ends up being the exact opposite of what she actually did say.

To tell half a truth is often to tell more of a lie than an outright lie. If called on it they have the "accidental" omission to fall back on.

 

[jjkg]

Indeed I would, but I somehow don't think he would have gotten nearly as much crap for it as Sofia is currently getting. Also I don't see how this has anything to do with my comment about internalized sexism whatsoever.

Oh please, "A lady knows to keep her mouth shut" and not "kiss women on the lips" – where do you live, in the 18th century? Sofia is just as much a lady as you and I are. Just because she doesn't live up to your (seemingly rather misogynistic) standards for women, doesn't make her any less of a lady

You know what? When women think they are better than other women because they are "ladies" who "behave", it makes me want to actually gouge my own eyes out because that is pretty much just reinforcing the patriarchal idea that women should be obedient and "good" and it is just incredibly sad.

Sofia is CP's choice. It is their life and they have to live it, good or bad. No reservation we express here is going to change that fact.

Having said that, I would really like to strongly oppose the "feminism" view being presented in this thread, i.e. if one objects to explicit use of sexuality to cater to seedier side of men's sexuality and use it to get ahead in life personally and professionally, then one is a throwback to 18th century.

http://i57.tinypic.com/2h2qu0l.png
http://i57.tinypic.com/nfqwdi.jpg

Now, is Sofia a 21'st century feminist icon here.....or.....is she catering to 18th century patriarchal, misogynistic mindset. Men whom she was catering to I suppose professionally(if not for cash, then for publicity), when they were with Sofia- were they looking at her as an equal, worthy of all respect, or a piece of flesh?


If it is acceptable to use sexuality as commodity, them my question is this - Do we want to live in a world were selling sex to get ahead in life becomes an accepted ethical value, becomes our morality?

Want a promotion - go sleep with your boss, your boss's boss, the HR person. Want to get a good deal on a car, sleep with the sales guy/girl. If the sales guy/girl is really desperate to make their sales quota, they should dole out as many sexual favors to potential customers as they can. In short where main currency and commodity is sex.

What kind of world would that be?

Is this not why everyone complains about exploitation of women in professions where it is easier to sell sex? After-all, how many articles do we read about casting couch for actresses....or in the modelling industry? Or feminists fighting to stop sexual harassment at work, or home.

So is feminism about women owning their sexuality, or women owning their greed and sexuality being an exchange currency

 

[KittyAtlanta]

Whew! This discussion is so tiresome. I like the fact that she's on a different path now.

 

[Kellydofc]

Oh please stop it. If a woman makes the decision to be a prostitute/glamour model/escort etc that is on her. It's not disrespecting your own body, it's taking matters into your own hands. That is making the choice to do what you want and how you want to achieve what you set out to do. Now if she was forced into it, that's another story but there are plenty of women who made the decision to do the type of work they do and are contributing people.

People need to get over the stigma that every woman who works in an industry related to that of the sex industry, is an unworthy person.

Also, people need to stop it with not willing to give her a chance. Firstly of all, it's not up to you to give her another chance. She is not marrying into your family now is she? Secondly of all, these are two adults who have decided to get married and really start a family/life together. They are not killing anybody nor is that decision affecting anyone in any way. Please cry some more over it.

Thank you so much! I am tired of this crap that says if you pose naked you are some sort of horrid, terrible human being. And why, oh why is a photograph so much worse than a nude painting or sculpture? Do we all really want to go back to the Victorian Era when a woman's worth was determined by her virginity or perception of her virginity?

I'm sure Sofia wasn't wandering around a decade plus ago thinking "better not do that, some day I'll marry a prince and this will look bad for us." Just like the rest of us aren't thinking that.

I admit, I don't know what sort of circumstances Sofia faced when she made these decisions (because she and Carl-Philip are not two people I generally follow). Maybe she felt this was the best way to keep herself fed or a roof over her head. Or maybe she just has enough comfort in herself and her sexuality and is open minded enough to feel comfortable posing nude. Would be people here be as upset if she had posed nude for a painting or would that be brushed off as "art" where as the photo is "porn"? I think people's reactions say a lot more about them then they do about Sofia, Carl-Philip or the rest of the Swedish Royal Family.

 

[SElizabeth]

Yes and everybody has their own opinion about everything in life and it's just not okay to shout/scream/yell your opinion on to someone else and think that you can change their mind, There are many who seem to have a crush/infatuation and worship the ground that this girl walks on, and some who don't. We all have different ideas as to what being a decent person, being a lady, being a moral person is and that shows the type of person we are in our opinions, and that all depends on each person's up bringing and the time/era they were born as times do change, for some SH is okay in all those and for some she isn't. It is strange that it is okay for a woman to make money posing/selling/acting/promoting or delievering sex. And for some it is totally unacceptable to do these things and think it's okay.

I believe she is very very good, in fact excellent at what she does.

 

[nascarlucy]

Feminism is very strange when it relates to sexual empowerment which is defined differently. The definition of this varies as one feminist who poses nude considers themselves empowered while another woman who is also a feminist considers it catering to the sexism of men and demeaning to women in general. You would probably find this opinion more in older feminist women than the younger ones. I consider myself more or less leaning in the way that some of this can be demeaning to women (especially those who don't have an choice in the matter).

I would hope that Sofia wasn't pressured, influenced by someone older or coerced into posing nude at age 16 as this is very young (too young IMO) to be doing this. Sometimes when you are young, you don't realize that this is what is being done and one day it catches up to you in ways you would never dream of. I know a lot of people have criticized her for this but no one has brought this up or perhaps thought about this. I've often wondered about this.

What is very strange about the latter opinions about empowerment is that it's the same as conservatives or those who are religious and is probably one of the few things that they agree upon. Strange bedfellows indeed.

It's true that a lot of people (both men and women) feel threatened by a woman who is comfortable with her own self or sexuality. This is going against all kinds of traditions.

I do hope that everything works out for them.

 

[COUNTESS]

Actually, and I am going to be 73 in a couple of weeks, it is none of our business. You cannot judge who is moral, because they paused for some photos when they were young. How they treat people and how caring they are far more important than all this other nonsense. No one has shouted their opinion to those with a negative attitude who think they know everything and may judge everything. What amazes me is that one of the very negative posters is American, as I am and it is none of our business. It is the Swedes' business. No one, on this earth, has a right to judge her. And I hope she and CP find great happiness together.

 

[Fürstin Taxis]

Not a fan of her, but if everything is true about the King, then she looks pretty harmless (can´t wait for Queen Victoria).