Carl Philip and Sofia's Wedding: Suggestions and Musings

[MARG]

I'm curious, why wouldn't Sofia be a princess as a matter of course since she is marrying a prince? Why wouldn't Jonas, and then Chris, become a prince as a matter of course, upon marrying a Swedish princess? Is Sweden's royalty different in this regard than other European royalty?

Okay, leaving Princes Daniel and Philip out of the mix for obvious reasons.

UK: Prince Andrew and Prince William's wives were made HRH Duchesses upon their marriage.

Denmark: Upon her marriage to Prince Joachim, Marie Cavallier became HRH Princess Marie of Denmark, Countess of Monpezat".

Belgium: Upon her marriage to Prince Laurent, Clair Coombs became HRH Princess Claire of Belgium by royal decree.

Netherlands: While not legally created a Princess upon her marriage to Prince Friso, Mabel Wisse Smit uses the customary title of HRH Princess Mabel.

Likewise, while not legally created a Princess upon her marriage to Prince Constantijn, Petra Laurentien Brinkhorst uses the customary title of HRH Princess Laurentien.

Norway: Her Royal Highness Princess Märtha Louise of Norway around the time of her marriage to Ari Behn, became plain Princess Märtha Louise of Norway and HH Princess Märtha Louise of Norway, outside Norway.

So if anyone can find any fixed commonality between Royal Houses in Europe, go for it.

 

[LadyFinn]

Aftonbladet has a part of the guest list, according to the information they have got, these people are invited. The invitation says "tiara may be worn".
According to Aftonbladet, the dress code at the dinner on Friday for family and friends is black tie.
Aftonbladet avslöjar Gästlistan till prinsbröllopet Nyheter Aftonbladet

Expressen quotes Aftonbladet's article
De blir bjudna på prinsparets bröllop Nyheter Expressen
Translation

 

[LadyFinn]

During the past two royal weddings were also representatives of the diplomatic corps and the party leaders and ministers invited (to Victoria's wedding more than Madeleine's).
Aftonbladet called to the Parliamentary party leaders, it turns out that they have not yet received an invitation in the mail.
- Invitations are rolled out little by little, it started at the beginning of the week, says Margareta Thorgren from the press department. The reason that the court does so is a "technicality", says Thorgren.
It is already clear that one of the party leaders, Jonas Sjöstedt will not attend, he ingurates a conference in Ulricehamn on the same day.
It is also not clear if prime minister Stefan Löfven can attend.
- I must ask you to come back to this, writes press secretary Dan Lundqvist Dahlin in an email.
Sjöstedt nobbar bröllopet Nyheter Aftonbladet

Thorgren didn't comment the list of invited people Aftonbladet published today.

 

[Mbruno]

Aftonbladet has a part of the guest list, according to the information they have got, these people are invited. The invitation says "tiara may be worn".
According to Aftonbladet, the dress code at the dinner on Friday for family and friends is black tie.
Aftonbladet avslöjar Gästlistan till prinsbröllopet Nyheter Aftonbladet

Expressen quotes Aftonbladet's article
De blir bjudna på prinsparets bröllop Nyheter Expressen
Translation

Isn't it strange that Haakon, Mette-Marit and Märtha Louise are on the guest list, but King Harald and Queen Sonja are not ?

 

[LadyFinn]

Isn't it strange that Haakon, Mette-Marit and Märtha Louise are on the guest list, but King Harald and Queen Sonja are not ?

No, they weren't invited to Madeleine's wedding either, because Carl Philip and Madeleine aren't the heirs to the throne. Queen Margrethe is invited because he is Carl Philip's godmother.

 

[Jacknch]

I'm pleased that Edward ad Sophie have been invited and I hope they attend!

 

[sophie25]

Albert & Charlene attended Victoria's and Charlene went to Maddie's so I would expect Monaco representation as well.

 

[LadyFinn]

The list Aftonbladet published, isn't an official one, but just one Aftonbladet has made itself. How they got the names, are the names just guesses or not, we will see that when the official guest list is published. But since there were just about 100 names, there will be many more to the official list.

EDIT: Aftonbladet has taken the list away, the court has said that it has some mistakes in it. Some names are correct, all aren't.
Which I noticed were that he list said that princesses Margaretha and Désirée would attend with their husbands, princess Margaretha's husband is dead. And the list claimed that all the Danes, Margrethe, Frederik, Joachim and Benedikte are invited. Normally someone of them stays in Denmark as a regent.
It is also interesting that this kind of list came out. I don't remember that it happened before Victoria's and Madeleine's weddings.

 

[angieuk]

Please can anyone post the link of the LIVE TV STATION.

Does anyone know when the station will go LIVE ON AIR, seeing as the weddding is not until 4.30. (3.30 UK time).

Hope its a lovely sunny day.

 

[LadyFinn]

Please can anyone post the link of the LIVE TV STATION.

Does anyone know when the station will go LIVE ON AIR, seeing as the weddding is not until 4.30. (3.30 UK time).

Hope its a lovely sunny day.

The royal court hasn't informed yet about the TV-channel, which will broadcast the wedding. The previous weddings have been broadcasted by SVT and it would be reasonable to think that it is SVT also this time.
When the press release of the TV-channel chosen is released, the channel will later inform how the wedding will be broadcasted, it least that it the way it happened at the previous two royal weddings.

 

[Duc_et_Pair]

There is no indication that anything strange will happen, Ms Sofia Hellqvist will be addressed with her husband's title: HRH Princess Sofia of Sweden, Duchess of Värmland. Exactly according centuries old social custom and tradition. The wife of a Baron can be addressed as a Baroness, the wife of a Count can be addressed as a Countess, etc.

People using the example of Daniel, Jonas and Christopher forget that they are males. There is no social custom or tradition at all to address untitled males with their wives' style or titles. Look at Mr John Ambler, look at Mr Tord Magnuson, look at Mr Ari Behn in Norway, look at Mr Timothy Lawrence in the United Kingdom, look at Mr Pieter van Vollenhoven in the Netherlands. Unless there is an intervention by the Sovereign, nothing will change in their form of address.

A Swedish commoner, let us say Mr Jensen, marrying a Baroness De Geer will not be addressed as "Baron De Geer" but remains Mr Jensen. Without the King's intervention Daniel, Jonas and Christopher would have remained Mr Westling, Mr Bergstrom resp. Mr O'Neill. That the King intervened to get Daniel a title, was logic. The same happened to other male consorts to heiresses. His intervention in favour of Jonas and Christopher was something new. After all Queen Elizabeth II did not intervene for a royal title to Mr Timothy Lawrence, King Harald V did not intervene for a royal title to Mr Ari Behn. So with other words: comparisons with Jonas, Christopher and Daniel are not working in the case of Sofia.

 

[hernameispekka]

The royal court hasn't informed yet about the TV-channel, which will broadcast the wedding. The previous weddings have been broadcasted by SVT and it would be reasonable to think that it is SVT also this time.
When the press release of the TV-channel chosen is released, the channel will later inform how the wedding will be broadcasted, it least that it the way it happened at the previous two royal weddings.

Ofc it will be SVT, very probably SVT1. It's the public service channel so it's the "governments" channel.

 

[Baron Brockdorf]

There is no indication that anything strange will happen, Ms Sofia Hellqvist will be addressed with her husband's title: HRH Princess Sofia of Sweden, Duchess of Värmland. Exactly according centuries old social custom and tradition. The wife of a Baron can be addressed as a Baroness, the wife of a Count can be addressed as a Countess, etc.

People using the example of Daniel, Jonas and Christopher forget that they are males. There is no social custom or tradition at all to address untitled males with their wives' style or titles. Look at Mr John Ambler, look at Mr Tord Magnuson, look at Mr Ari Behn in Norway, look at Mr Timothy Lawrence in the United Kingdom, look at Mr Pieter van Vollenhoven in the Netherlands. Unless there is an intervention by the Sovereign, nothing will change in their form of address.

A Swedish commoner, let us say Mr Jensen, marrying a Baroness De Geer will not be addressed as "Baron De Geer" but remains Mr Jensen. Without the King's intervention Daniel, Jonas and Christopher would have remained Mr Westling, Mr Bergstrom resp. Mr O'Neill. That the King intervened to get Daniel a title, was logic. The same happened to other male consorts to heiresses. His intervention in favour of Jonas and Christopher was something new. After all Queen Elizabeth II did not intervene for a royal title to Mr Timothy Lawrence, King Harald V did not intervene for a royal title to Mr Ari Behn. So with other words: comparisons with Jonas, Christopher and Daniel are not working in the case of Sofia.

I'd like to point a few things out
1. The Kings sisters were never in the line of succession and, 3 of them had to give up their HRHs due to 'inferior marriages' even Princess Desiree who married a baron therefore unable to offer their husbands the same rank
2. Sweden has full primogeniture so the women just like the men can elevate their husbands upon marriage and pass on titles and dynast rights to their children...... It's the king who makes the decision about titles their entitlement through marriage isn't some thing automatic.....Daniel and Chris were offered HRH, Princley and Ducal titles, Daniel accepted Chris declined so it's very likely that Sofia will be offered the same and then she decides whether or not to accept them....also a paper once wrote that the court said they will announce whether or not she will be titled closer to the wedding so again nothing is automatic

 

[Duc_et_Pair]

[...] It's the king who makes the decision about titles their entitlement through marriage isn't some thing automatic.....Daniel and Chris were offered HRH, Princley and Ducal titles, Daniel accepted Chris declined so it's very likely that Sofia will be offered the same and then she decides whether or not to accept them....also a paper once wrote that the court said they will announce whether or not she will be titled closer to the wedding so again nothing is automatic

Mr Westling, Mr Bergstrom and Mr O'Neill can not have been "offered a title" since the King has no any possibility to confer nobility on anyone anymore, not even on members of the royal family.

What the King does is in essence nothing more than informing how these gentlemen will be addressed. That is all. Mr Westling is addressed by his spouse's titles. Mr O'Neill is addressed by his own surname. In the case of Mr Westling and Mr O'Neill the King had to act (or not, like in the last case). In the case of Ms Hellqvist the King needs nothing to do. When the King does not say anything about it, Sofia is -by virtue of her marriage- as much a Princess of Sweden, Duchess of Värmland as Princess Birgitta is a Prinzessin von Hohenzollern or Princess Désirée a Friherrinna Silfverschiöld thanks to their marriages.

If this is not automatic, then this means that in Sweden the spouse of the Hertig Fouché d'Otrante is not automatically a Hertiginna Fouché d'Otrante?

That means that in Sweden the spouse to the Greve Oxenstierna af Korsholm och Wasa is not automatically a Grevinna Oxenstierna af Korsholm och Wasa ?

That means that in Sweden the spouse of a Friherre Buxhoeveden is not automatically a Friherrinna Buxhoeveden?

 

[JR76]

I do agree with both of you. SH will in all certainty get an HRH and the title of princess.
What's happened lately with JB, CON & Leonore is a consequence of the new Law of Succession where equal primogeniture gives all Cgs descendants an equal status. Another very surprising consequence of this and one which I don't think anyone could foresee is that in a time when other royal houses are limiting their membership the Swedish royal house have effectively thrown the doors open to include an innumerable amount of people in the coming generations.
I have a feeling why but since I don't want to experience the wrath of the moderators for speculating I'll keep it to myself


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[JR76]

Mr Westling, Mr Bergstrom and Mr O'Neill can not have been "offered a title" since the King has no any possibility to confer nobility on anyone anymore, not even on members of the royal family.

What the King does is in essence nothing more than informing how these gentlemen will be addressed. That is all. Mr Westling is addressed by his spouse's titles. Mr O'Neill is addressed by his own surname. In the case of Mr Westling and Mr O'Neill the King had to act (or not, like in the last case). In the case of Ms Hellqvist the King needs nothing to do. When the King does not say anything about it, Sofia is -by virtue of her marriage- as much a Princess of Sweden, Duchess of Värmland as Princess Birgitta is a Prinzessin von Hohenzollern or Princess Désirée a Friherinna Silfverschiöld thanks to their marriages.

If this is not automatic, then this means that in Sweden the spouse of the Hertig Fouché d'Otrante is not automatically a Hertiginna Fouché d'Otrante?

That means that in Sweden the spouse to the Greve Oxenstierna af Korsholm och Wasa is not automatically a Grevinna Oxenstierna af Korsholm och Wasa ?

That means that in Sweden the spouse of a Friherre Buxhoeveden is not automatically a Friherrina Buxhoeveden?

The King has the right to hand out titles to members of the Royal house. Prince Daniels is afaik a prince in his own right.

When it comes to the status of women marrying noblemen they carry the title of their husband during the marriage. Should they divorce they would loose the title. In the event of a noblewoman marrying a nobleman of a lower rank she'll keep her title.
According to custom the daughter of a titled nobleman in most cases carry the title of her family but doesn't use it until she's married. In the old days the title of "Fröken" (Miss) was used exclusively by these women


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[Baron Brockdorf]

Mr Westling, Mr Bergstrom and Mr O'Neill can not have been "offered a title" since the King has no any possibility to confer nobility on anyone anymore, not even on members of the royal family.

What the King does is in essence nothing more than informing how these gentlemen will be addressed. That is all. Mr Westling is addressed by his spouse's titles. Mr O'Neill is addressed by his own surname. In the case of Mr Westling and Mr O'Neill the King had to act (or not, like in the last case). In the case of Ms Hellqvist the King needs nothing to do. When the King does not say anything about it, Sofia is -by virtue of her marriage- as much a Princess of Sweden, Duchess of Värmland as Princess Birgitta is a Prinzessin von Hohenzollern or Princess Désirée a Friherinna Silfverschiöld thanks to their marriages.

If this is not automatic, then this means that in Sweden the spouse of the Hertig Fouché d'Otrante is not automatically a Hertiginna Fouché d'Otrante?

That means that in Sweden the spouse to the Greve Oxenstierna af Korsholm och Wasa is not automatically a Grevinna Oxenstierna af Korsholm och Wasa ?

That means that in Sweden the spouse of a Friherre Buxhoeveden is not automatically a Friherrina Buxhoeveden?

The King can no loger give people and aristocrats titles however, he still retains the right to confer titles on members of the Royal family...Ducal titles for ex are not hereditary in Sweden only royals hold them....it's the King who decides who gets a ducal title and which duchy...also when I said entitlement isnt automatic I meant in the Royal family I'll use the same example again Chris was entitled and offered a title which he refused it so in that case no the husband of HRH Princess Madeleine of Sweden, The Duchess of Halsingland and Gastrikland is not HRH Prince Christopher of Sweden the Duke of Halsingland and Gastrikland because he resfused the Kings offer...and so though I have no doubt the King will present Sofia with the same offer he presented his other sons in law she too can choose to decline it and be known as Mrs Bernadotte or accept it and become Princess Sofia .... yes in aristocratic families I suppose spouses assume their other spouses title

Here's is the press release announcing Daniels title
'H.M. The King has decided to confer upon Mr Daniel Westling the title H.R.H. Prince Daniel, Duke of Västergötland. This title is accompanied by a coat of arms and a monogram.'
http://www.kungahuset.se/royalcourt...areunveiled.5.40e05eec12926f263048000668.html

 

[Duc_et_Pair]

The King has the right to hand out titles to members of the Royal house. Prince Daniels is afaik a prince in his own right.

When it comes to the status of women marrying noblemen they carry the title of their husband during the marriage. Should they divorce they would loose the title. In the event of a noblewoman marrying a nobleman of a lower rank she'll keep her title.
According to custom the daughter of a titled nobleman in most cases carry the title of her family but doesn't use it until she's married. In the old days the title of "Fröken" (Miss) was used exclusively by these women


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I understood Mr Westling was "invested" with his wife's titles - in other words, he shares his wife's titles. This is what is generally known as a title jure uxoris (in right of a wife) but now for a male consort, which so far was only known in Spain. This does not mean that Prince Daniel is a Prince of Sweden, Duke of Västergötland in his own right (suo jure). If that last is the case, where is the Royal Decree and on base of which articles in the Constitution was it done? After all, from 1974 the monarch can not confer nobility. Until 2003 the Swedish nobility was regulated by a special statute but in that year the statute was lifted and all connections between the state of Sweden and nobility dissolved...

 

[xenobia]

I think that the issue of Jonas Bergström is forgotten in this discussion. We know for a fact that he would not have become a prince when he married princess Madeleine. It was announced that he would be duke, nothing more or less. His situation is very similar to Sofias. They are/were both set to marry a royal sibling that isn't the crown prince/princess.

Do I think that Sofia will become a princess? Yes. But that has more do to with the current circumstances than rules or customs.

 

[Duc_et_Pair]

I think that the issue of Jonas Bergström is forgotten in this discussion. We know for a fact that he would not have become a prince when he married princess Madeleine. It was announced that he would be duke, nothing more or less. His situation is very similar to Sofias. They are/were both set to marry a royal sibling that isn't the crown prince/princess.

Do I think that Sofia will become a princess? Yes. But that has more do to with the current circumstances than rules or customs.

According to all social customs and traditions Sofia will become a Princess of Sweden. Look at any guestlist the Swedish Court publishes and see how the married ladies are addressed...

The situation is totally new and unprecedented since 1974 and 1980. What to do with the husband of Princess Madeleine? After all with her a total new situation is faced: the Princess marries a non-royal and non-noble without any title but remains in line of succession, as well her issue. What now? Is it "desirable" that Jonas or Christopher become a Prince of Sweden indeed? Or do we make a sort of difference and leave the princely title apart?

Luckily Mr O'Neill remained known as Mr O'Neill. Was he only "Duke of Hälsingland and Gästrikland" and no Prince of Sweden, how can the King "sell it" when Sofia would be known as "Princess Sofia"? It is clear it is all new and the Court is looking for the best way to deal with new and unknown situations. That Mr O'Neill is not known with a title is a blessing in disguise: it has taken away the problem. Ms Hellqvist can be known as Princess Sofia, as the centuries old custom says. There is no "mismatch" with Daniel. There is with Christopher but that was his own request.

 

[Baron Brockdorf]

Luckily Mr O'Neill remained known as Mr O'Neill. Was he only "Duke of Hälsingland and Gästrikland" and no Prince of Sweden, how can the King "sell it" when Sofia would be known as "Princess Sofia"? It is clear it is all new and the Court is looking for the best way to deal with new and unknown situations. That Mr O'Neill is not known with a title is a blessing in disguise: it has taken away the problem. Ms Hellqvist can be known as Princess Sofia, as the centuries old custom says. There is no "mismatch" with Daniel. There is with Christopher but that was his own request.

Although Jonas was offered a Ducal title, Chris was offered both the Princely and Ducal titles, had he accepted them he would have been known as HRH Prince Christopher Duke of etc etc
Mr Christopher O'Neill's title - Sveriges Kungahus [NS4 version]

 

[GracieGiraffe]

The King also gave little Leonore titles as well.

It seems clear to me that as he offered Chris O'Neill titles he will offer them to Sofia as well.

 

[JR76]

I understood Mr Westling was "invested" with his wife's titles - in other words, he shares his wife's titles. This is what is generally known as a title jure uxoris (in right of a wife) but now for a male consort, which so far was only known in Spain. This does not mean that Prince Daniel is a Prince of Sweden, Duke of Västergötland in his own right (suo jure). If that last is the case, where is the Royal Decree and on base of which articles in the Constitution was it done? After all, from 1974 the monarch can not confer nobility. Until 2003 the Swedish nobility was regulated by a special statute but in that year the statute was lifted and all connections between the state of Sweden and nobility dissolved...

The Royal family is and has never been a part of the Swedish nobility. The King as you say cannot confer noble titles but the titles of the Royal family is entirely up to him.

I just found the press release from 2010-05-30 that states that "DW will after the marriage be a Prins of Sweden and a member of the Royal House. In connection to the wedding he will also become Duke of Västergötland since CPV is Duchess of Västergötland. Because of the wording in Swedish this to me says he's a prince in his own right but a duke of V. because of his wife.

I have a feeling I'm totally off topic now so I'll keep quiet from now on
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[LadyFinn]

Although Jonas was offered a Ducal title, Chris was offered both the Princely and Ducal titles, had he accepted them he would have been known as HRH Prince Christopher Duke of etc etc
Mr Christopher O'Neill's title - Sveriges Kungahus [NS4 version]

The court writes:
"In accordance with royal protocol, a member of the Royal Family should be a Swedish citizen, and should not hold a position of responsibility within business.
This means that, in accordance with these principles, Mr Christopher O'Neill cannot hold the title H.R.H. Prince of Sweden or Duke of Gästrikland and Hälsingland."

I have never been reading this like that Chris was offered both the prince and duke -titles. I have read it and thought that Chris was offered the duke -title like to Jonas. The wording at this press release is "H.R.H. Prince of Sweden or Duke of Gästrikland and Hälsingland" - not "H.R.H. Prince of Sweden and Duke and Gästrikland and Hälsingland"
I have thought that it meant that the king can "offer" both prince and duke titles but because Chris didn't want to take swedish citizenship and didn't want to stop his businesses, he is a person who can't be either a prince or a duke, but in this case not a duke, the only title offered.
But everyone can understand this like one wants.

 

[Cris M]

I know the succession laws have changed since, but the last time a woman married a Prince of Sweden, she shared all her husband titles: HRH Princess Lilian of Sweden, Duchess of Halland (1915-2013).

That's the most recent precedence of a woman marrying a Prince of Sweden.

 

[xenobia]

The court writes:
"In accordance with royal protocol, a member of the Royal Family should be a Swedish citizen, and should not hold a position of responsibility within business.
This means that, in accordance with these principles, Mr Christopher O'Neill cannot hold the title H.R.H. Prince of Sweden or Duke of Gästrikland and Hälsingland."

I have never been reading this like that Chris was offered both the prince and duke -titles. I have read it and thought that Chris was offered the duke -title like to Jonas. The wording at this press release is "H.R.H. Prince of Sweden or Duke of Gästrikland and Hälsingland" - not "H.R.H. Prince of Sweden and Duke and Gästrikland and Hälsingland"
I have thought that it meant that the king can "offer" both prince and duke titles but because Chris didn't want to take swedish citizenship and didn't want to stop his businesses, he is a person who can't be either a prince or a duke, but in this case not a duke, the only title offered.
But everyone can understand this like one wants.

I agree. Why would Chris be made prince when Jonas was supposed to become duke? That makes no sense.

In normal cases, Sofia wouldn't become a princess either. My speculation is this: V&D will not have any other children. Madeleine wishes to withdraw from the royal spotlight. Therefore, when the current King and Queen withdraws from the scene, V&D will need help and support from a sibling and his/her spouse and children. Not just as a spare to Estelle, but also to help out with royal duties. I think that CP&S will take that role, allowing Madeleine to do whatever she wants (including living and raising her kids abroad). As CP&S will have more prominent roles, it will be easier if she is princess.

Yes, it's all speculation. We'll see in 10-15 years what happens. And Sofias title.. well, fortunately we just have to wait two months for that

 

[LadyFinn]

Expressen claims to know that the court and SVT have got an agreement and SVT will broadcast the wedding.
Margareta Thorgren, director of the press department:
- When we have information about this summer's royal wedding, we will communicate it.
Meta Bergqvist, who will be according to Expressen the producer:
- I hope that SVT may send the wedding, but I do not want to get ahead.
Thomas Hall, program manager at SVT:
- We have reason to hope that SVT may send the wedding, but there is nothing we can confirm or comment on the current situation.
Drömbröllopet direktsänds i SVT _ Nyheter _ Expressen
Translation

 

[Tatiana Maria]

That means that in Sweden the spouse of a Friherre Buxhoeveden is not automatically a Friherrinna Buxhoeveden?

Correct. Adopting husbands' surnames is not automatic in Sweden. Swedish noble titles are no longer legally recognized, and using them is optional.

I agree. Why would Chris be made prince when Jonas was supposed to become duke? That makes no sense.

The royal family spokeswoman apparently was quoted as saying discussions about a possible princely title were held before Christopher O'Neill's wedding. Can someone clarify this?

Kungen vägrar kommentera Maddes affärer | Nyheter | Aftonbladet

 

[xenobia]

The royal family spokeswoman apparently was quoted as saying discussions about a possible princely title were held before Christopher O'Neill's wedding. Can someone clarify this?

Kungen vägrar kommentera Maddes affärer | Nyheter | Aftonbladet

That article doesn't mention Chris' possible titles. Lady Finn made a good summary of the situation in an earlier post. Since Chris isn't a Swedish citizen, he can't hold any Swedish titels. That includes both duke and prince. We don't know if he was offered both. But we do know that Jonas Bergström was "only" offered to be a duke, which he accepted. I don't know why they would have treated Chris differently than Jonas.

 

[Kingen]

The Court has announced the host broadcaster for the wedding, it is, indeed as speculated, Sveriges Television (SVT).

Host broadcaster at the wedding between Prince Carl Philip and Ms. Sofia Hellqvist - Sveriges Kungahus [NS4 version]