Carl Philip and Sofia's Wedding: Suggestions and Musings

[LadyFinn]

From the thread of the Hellqvist family

In Sweden it's customary for the bridal couple to walk down the aisle together. In the cases where the bride wants to be led by her father the priest always let her know that it's against the official stance of the Church of Sweden and tries to persuade her to change her mind.


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From the website of Svenska Kyrkan (The Church of Sweden)
A common question is if the bride can be led to the altar by her father. There is nothing in the Swedish church that prohibits this custom, but it may be worth considering the symbolism of the act.
Originally, it is about that the responsibility of the woman is left over from the father to the man and dates from the time when women were not authoritative. Some priests may for that reason deny that the bride is led by her father to the altar.
Frågor och svar om vigsel - Svenska kyrkan - Tro och andlighet

However, in neither at Victoria's and Madeleine's weddings the king didn't walk with them to the altar. Daniel was waiting for them at the middle of the church, and Victoria and Daniel walked together to the altar.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fzgYGWI5Flo

At Madeleine's and Chris's wedding the king "gave" Madeleine to Chris closer to the altar.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SjC_XMKgvrI

I have a feeling that Sofia and Carl Philip will walk to the church together.

 

[Kingen]

From the thread of the Hellqvist family

From the website of Svenska Kyrkan (The Church of Sweden)
A common question is if the bride can be led to the altar by her father. There is nothing in the Swedish church that prohibits this custom, but it may be worth considering the symbolism of the act.
Originally, it is about that the responsibility of the woman is left over from the father to the man and dates from the time when women were not authoritative. Some priests may for that reason deny that the bride is led by her father to the altar.
Frågor och svar om vigsel - Svenska kyrkan - Tro och andlighet

However, in neither at Victoria's and Madeleine's weddings the king didn't walk with them to the altar. Daniel was waiting for them at the middle of the church, and Victoria and Daniel walked together to the altar.

At Madeleine's and Chris's wedding the king "gave" Madeleine to Chris closer to the altar.

I have a feeling that Sofia and Carl Philip will walk to the church together.

As you LadyFinn I think they will walk to the altar together, I like that!

When it comes to the Crown Princess and Princess Madeleine I think that the King "handed over" his daughters at places in the church which was suitable. For Victoria just before the stairs to the altar, and for Madeleine before the section with VIPs

 

[principessa]

I wonder when the next information will be announced!

 

[Stefan]

As you LadyFinn I think they will walk to the altar together, I like that!

When it comes to the Crown Princess and Princess Madeleine I think that the King "handed over" his daughters at places in the church which was suitable. For Victoria just before the stairs to the altar, and for Madeleine before the section with VIPs

I also think the will do it the swedish way and walk together in the Church as the are both from Sweden (but so where Victoria and Daniel).
What i'm wondering is what is the reason that at Victoria's Wedding the King, Carl Philip and and the foreign Heads of State whore the Collar of Serpahim Order and at Madeleine's Wedding the wore the sash like they usually do?

 

[LadyFinn]

I also think the will do it the swedish way and walk together in the Church as the are both from Sweden (but so where Victoria and Daniel).
What i'm wondering is what is the reason that at Victoria's Wddding the King, Carl Philip and and the foreign Heads of State whore the Collar of Serpahim Order and at Madeleine's Wedding the wore the sash like they usually do?

Maybe because Victoria's wedding was seen as a state event, the heir was getting married.
From the website of the court
At Victoria's wedding the king wore the Order of the Seraphim and Order of Vasa on chains. Around his neck The King wore the Order of the Sword, the Swedish military order. The King wore two grand stars; the Swedish Order of the Seraphim's grand star at the top and the grand star of the Order of Vasa underneath.
At Madeleine's wedding the King wore the Order of the Seraphim on a ribbon with grand star and the Order of Vasa with grand star. The other orders he wore similarly to Victoria's wedding.

 

[KittyAtlanta]

Hummm. Although I am American, I can see the bride and groom approaching the altar together. In essence, upon engagement the bride has already been given away. Now, I know that not every prospective groom asks permission from the father (or father and mother), we do know there was at least discussion of the union between the families. Otherwise, probably no wedding.

 

[Kingen]

What i'm wondering is what is the reason that at Victoria's Wedding the King, Carl Philip and and the foreign Heads of State whore the Collar of Serpahim Order and at Madeleine's Wedding the wore the sash like they usually do?

Yes most likely because Victorias wedding was a state event. I can remember the commentators during the broadcast say that it was a wish from the Court (the King) that the Head of States would wear the collar, and that they were happy that so many did. Surprisingly did not the Reign Queens wear theirs.

We would most likely not see the collar at Carl Philips wedding.

 

[GömdNatt]

Yes most likely because Victorias wedding was a state event. I can remember the commentators during the broadcast say that it was a wish from the Court (the King) that the Head of States would wear the collar, and that they were happy that so many did. Surprisingly did not the Reign Queens wear theirs.

We would most likely not see the collar at Carl Philips wedding.

I've never seen Margrethe in the Collar of the Seraphim. I know she has it, but has she ever actually worn it?

If I remember right, besides the Finnish President and Carl Philip, it was only the male reigning Kings who wore the Collar for Victoria's wedding. Beatrix & Margrethe (plus Silvia) didn't wear the collar.

 

[Stefan]

If I remember right, besides the Finnish President and Carl Philip, it was only the male reigning Kings who wore the Collar for Victoria's wedding. Beatrix & Margrethe (plus Silvia) didn't wear the collar.

What is strange in Beatrix case because at the swedish State Visit to the Netherlands she wore the collar at the State Banquet and not the sash like it is usually done.

 

[GömdNatt]

What is strange in Beatrix case because at the swedish State Visit to the Netherlands she wore the collar at the State Banquet and not the sash like it is usually done.

very true. She does seem to prefer collars over sashes. It is a bit weird that she chose the sash over the collar, but maybe she didn't feel like wearing the honking thing? lol

 

[sarahedwards2]

I don't find it the least bit sexist. I view it as a lovely tradition that can demonstrate the special bond between fathers and daughters.

My own father died many years ago. I adored him, and I miss him beyond description. To have had him walk me down the aisle at my wedding would have been the dream of a lifetime.


ICAM with MARG...anyone who is offended by it has the wonderful option of simply not doing it.

When my dad's younger brother got married 20 years ago, his wife's father had died several years earlier, so her brother-in-law walked her down the aisle and gave her away. (I was the flower girl that day, two months away from my fourth birthday.) Same with their oldest brother in 1981; his wife was given away by her uncle (her dad's brother).

If I ever get married (I'm in no rush to find a man), when the minister asks "Who gives this woman", my dad will say "Her mother and I", because he refuses to do it alone, even though he will be the one walking his firstborn child and only daughter down the aisle. My brothers will probably both walk our mom down the aisle; each taking an arm. My parents have been married for 38 years now; since they were my age, 24 (25 at the end of July), and knew each other for 10 years before that; they were high school sweethearts, and met the first day of ninth grade. My one brother will be 22 five days after Valentine's Day (he has the same birthday as Prince Andrew), and the other one will be 19 two weeks from today.

 

[LadyFinn]

I've never seen Margrethe in the Collar of the Seraphim. I know she has it, but has she ever actually worn it?

If I remember right, besides the Finnish President and Carl Philip, it was only the male reigning Kings who wore the Collar for Victoria's wedding. Beatrix & Margrethe (plus Silvia) didn't wear the collar.

Maybe the other women except my President thought it was uncomfortable to wear the Collar for at least 10 hours and chose the sash.

 

[GömdNatt]

Maybe the other women except my President thought it was uncomfortable to wear the Collar for at least 10 hours and chose the sash.

that's certainly a plausible explanation. I, myself, prefer sashes over collars (not that I've ever worn them, lol).

 

[Kingen]

I've never seen Margrethe in the Collar of the Seraphim. I know she has it, but has she ever actually worn it?

If I remember right, besides the Finnish President and Carl Philip, it was only the male reigning Kings who wore the Collar for Victoria's wedding. Beatrix & Margrethe (plus Silvia) didn't wear the collar.

No I don't think she has ever worn it, she might prefer the sash. That is correct, but it has hard to see any pattern in who choose to wear the sash or the collar. The Finnish President (Tarja Halonen) wore the collar, while the Iceland President (Dr.Olafur Ragnar Grimson) wore his sash. And the Regin Queens wore their sashes instead. Beatrix could have worn it, she wore the same dress as at the banquet of the State visit, maybe she thought it was inapproraite to wear an identical outfit

I don't think that Queen Silvia has the Collar of the Order of the Seraphim. If so she should have been portrayed or worn it sometime during over the years.

 

[An Ard Ri]

I wonder if the future Duchess of Värmland will receive any Swedish Orders prior to her wedding?

 

[GömdNatt]

I don't think that Queen Silvia has the Collar of the Order of the Seraphim. If so she should have been portrayed or worn it sometime during over the years.

My mistake, you seem to be right. Interesting that CP has the collar, but his mother does not?

The longer I study this stuff, the more I don't understand any of it, lol.

Vickan seems to have it as well, but she also has never worn it.

 

[Kingen]

My mistake, you seem to be right. Interesting that CP has the collar, but his mother does not?

The longer I study this stuff, the more I don't understand any of it, lol.

Haha I understand your feeling completely. It's very confusing and I think we have to deal with a lot of gender discrimination among the awarding of Swedish orders. I think Victoria (and Estelle) has the collar, though never worn it. It is at least the collar that surronds her Coat of Arms, instead of sash.

I wonder if the future Duchess of Värmland will receive any Swedish Orders prior to her wedding?

No she will not. Swedes can't be awarded Swedish orders. She can only be awarded it as a Memeber of the Royal Family, which she becomes with the wedding. It is the same thing as Prince Daniel, before the wedding he didn't wear the Order of the Seraphim, but when they left the church he had put it on.

She will probably be awarded the Order of the Seraphim as well. But who knows, it might be the Grand Cross of the Order of the Polar Star?

 

[Kingen]

I think at the very least she'll get the Polar Star, but I imagine she'll get the Seraphim. I'd be very surprised if she didn't. Daniel received the Seraphim the day of and Chris was given the Polar Star (likely because he refused titles).

It was out of the picture to bestow the Order of the Seraphim to Chris, as it only can be bestowed to heads of states (or equivalent) and members of the Royal Family. Therefor he got the Order of the Polar Star (not the highest level) as the Haga Princesses husbands got the Order of Vasa at their time for marriage.

 

[Stefan]

No she will not. Swedes can't be awarded Swedish orders. She can only be awarded it as a Memeber of the Royal Family, which she becomes with the wedding. It is the same thing as Prince Daniel, before the wedding he didn't wear the Order of the Seraphim, but when they left the church he had put it on.

She will probably be awarded the Order of the Seraphim as well. But who knows, it might be the Grand Cross of the Order of the Polar Star?

If the follow the example of Princess Lilian she will get the Order of the Polar Star and later the Order of the Seraphim.
But actually this time it is easier then with Daniel because as bride she will for sure not wear the Order on her Wedding Day.

 

[GömdNatt]

If the follow the example of Princess Lilian she will get the Order of the Polar Star and later the Order of the Seraphim.
But actually this time it is easier then with Daniel because as bride she will for sure not wear the Order on her Wedding Day.

but Bertil, by the time he married, was "just" the uncle of the King. CP is the son of the King. There's not many in Sweden to compare CP to. Plus, if there's any truth to the rumors that the King favors CP, Sofia will get the Seraphim on the day of her wedding.

 

[xenobia]

When my dad's younger brother got married 20 years ago, his wife's father had died several years earlier, so her brother-in-law walked her down the aisle and gave her away. (I was the flower girl that day, two months away from my fourth birthday.) Same with their oldest brother in 1981; his wife was given away by her uncle (her dad's brother).

If I ever get married (I'm in no rush to find a man), when the minister asks "Who gives this woman", my dad will say "Her mother and I", because he refuses to do it alone, even though he will be the one walking his firstborn child and only daughter down the aisle. My brothers will probably both walk our mom down the aisle; each taking an arm. My parents have been married for 38 years now; since they were my age, 24 (25 at the end of July), and knew each other for 10 years before that; they were high school sweethearts, and met the first day of ninth grade. My one brother will be 22 five days after Valentine's Day (he has the same birthday as Prince Andrew), and the other one will be 19 two weeks from today.

There is no "who gives this woman"-question in the swedish wedding ritual. It was abandoned during the 1800's, at the same time as the tradition of the couple walking down the aisle together was established. I think it mirrors the evolution of women's right in society over here. The church of Sweden also recommends that the swedish tradition should be kept. That is a big part of why it caused such an uproar around Victorias wedding.

I do accept that different countries have different traditions. I like the swedish tradition, not just because it's tradition but because it mirrors the equality between men and women in society. But my main hangup - that I still can't get over - is that I don't think that members of the royal family should try to stand up against the wish and tradition of the church when they chose a church wedding.

When it comes to Sofia and CP, I think they will chose the swedish tradition of walking down the aisle together, for several reasons. The biggest one is that they are aware how much fuzz it caused when the princesses chose to go against the church tradition. If they want to score points with the church, the population in general (and people in the women's rights movement in particular) this is an easy choice.

 

[GömdNatt]

There is no "who gives this woman"-question in the swedish wedding ritual. It was abandoned during the 1800's, at the same time as the tradition of the couple walking down the aisle together was established. I think it mirrors the evolution of women's right in society over here. The church of Sweden also recommends that the swedish tradition should be kept. That is a big part of why it caused such an uproar around Victorias wedding.

I do accept that different countries have different traditions. I like the swedish tradition, not just because it's tradition but because it mirrors the equality between men and women in society. But my main hangup - that I still can't get over - is that I don't think that members of the royal family should try to stand up against the wish and tradition of the church when they chose a church wedding.

When it comes to Sofia and CP, I think they will chose the swedish tradition of walking down the aisle together, for several reasons. The biggest one is that they are aware how much fuzz it caused when the princesses chose to go against the church tradition. If they want to score points with the church, the population in general (and people in the women's rights movement in particular) this is an easy choice.

I hardly think Vickan & Madeleine's choice to walk with their father part of the way has affected their popularity at all.

If you believe in equality, then a woman's choice to walk or not walk with her father/brother/whomever down the aisle is included in that equality. It is her choice and thus it should not be judged, particularly in Sweden where supposedly equality between the sexes is much more prevalent. You can disagree with it and do your own thing, but I think it's wholly unfair to look down upon Vickan & Madeleine because they wanted that moment with their father.

Just my opinion.

 

[An Ard Ri]

Thanks I had forgotten that,it will be interesting to see what orders Sofia gets once she's a member of the Swedish RF.

 

[Kingen]

If the follow the example of Princess Lilian she will get the Order of the Polar Star and later the Order of the Seraphim.
But actually this time it is easier then with Daniel because as bride she will for sure not wear the Order on her Wedding Day.

She the King could do as in this case, but the motive would differ. The Order of the Seraphim couldn't be bestowed to Lilian. From 1975 until a change of the law in 1995 the order just could be bestowed to Heads of states. After the change in 1995 members could get the order as well.

I think it clearly will depend on which title she gets. If she gets a Princess she will be bestowed the Seraphim, if Duchess the Polar Star

 

[xenobia]

I hardly think Vickan & Madeleine's choice to walk with their father part of the way has affected their popularity at all.

If you believe in equality, then a woman's choice to walk or not walk with her father/brother/whomever down the aisle is included in that equality. It is her choice and thus it should not be judged, particularly in Sweden where supposedly equality between the sexes is much more prevalent. You can disagree with it and do your own thing, but I think it's wholly unfair to look down upon Vickan & Madeleine because they wanted that moment with their father.

Just my opinion.

I didn't talk about their popularity in general. But yes, it has affected how people who are working with women's right here view them.

But my main point was that it goes against the wish and tradition of the church of Sweden. I've worked there myself, and have several friends (priests) who were deeply concerned by the request/demand from the court at the time of Victorias and Madeleines weddings. It wasn't something that the chuch had expected, and the decision to allow it was (and still is) debated within the clergy.

So for Sofia and CP's wedding, I think that they have all the reasons in the world to follow the swedish tradition.

 

[Stefan]

She the King could do as in this case, but the motive would differ. The Order of the Seraphim couldn't be bestowed to Lilian. From 1975 until a change of the law in 1995 the order just could be bestowed to Heads of states. After the change in 1995 members could get the order as well.

I think it clearly will depend on which title she gets. If she gets a Princess she will be bestowed the Seraphim, if Duchess the Polar Star

But also not the order of the Polar Star. As far as i know it Princess Lilian got the order of the Polar Star before her Wedding when still was a british citizen. And Queen Silvia got the Order of the Serpahim before her Wedding as german citizen.

 

[Kingen]

But also not the order of the Polar Star. As far as i know it Princess Lilian got the order of the Polar Star before her Wedding when still was a british citizen. And Queen Silvia got the Order of the Serpahim before her Wedding as german citizen.

Of course you're right Stefan. The Queen received it before the marriage and therefor would Lilian be able to receive it as well.

 

[CyrilVladisla]

She the King could do as in this case, but the motive would differ. The Order of the Seraphim couldn't be bestowed to Lilian. From 1975 until a change of the law in 1995 the order just could be bestowed to Heads of states. After the change in 1995 members could get the order as well.

I think it clearly will depend on which title she gets. If she gets a Princess she will be bestowed the Seraphim, if Duchess the Polar Star

Can Sofia be given the titles of Princess and Duchess?
​

 

[Kingen]

Can Sofia be given the titles of Princess and Duchess?
​

Yes she could, as Prince Daniel was created both prince and duke. I think it is most likely that she will be H.R.H Princess Sofia, Duchess of Värmland.

 

[royal rob]

I didn't walk down the aisle with my father as I didn't think I was being "given away " Wish I hadn't walked down that aisle at all now but that's a WHOLE another story


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