Birth of Prince Julian Herbert Folke, Duke of Halland: March 26, 2021

[Tirilschatz]

It's a boy

 

[xenobia]

He is here! The new little prince was born earlier today. Both mother and son are doing well.

https://www.kungahuset.se/royalcour...shaloftherealm.5.3d544ca01784aaa522d334f.html

 

[Heavs]

Aww, congrats. Three little boys.

 

[principessa]

Congratulations to Carl Philip and Sofia, Alexander and Gabriel!

Welcome little Prince!

 

[Moran]

Congrats to the happy parents!

 

[_Heather_]

Many congratulations to Carl Philip and Sofia! Three boys...they'll certainly have their hands full!

 

[queenofcelts]

wow! congratulations! Three boys! What a joy!

 

[Moonmaiden23]

All these Royal/ semi Royal baby boys lately!

Anyway congrats to C-P and Sofia

 

[Somebody]

He is here! The new little prince was born earlier today. Both mother and son are doing well.

https://www.kungahuset.se/royalcour...shaloftherealm.5.3d544ca01784aaa522d334f.html

That's wonderful news! Good to read that mother and child are in good health!

Maybe they can name him after my father; they share a birthday

 

[Blog Real]

Congratulations to Prince Carl-Philip and Princess Sofia!

 

[_Heather_]

I'm certainly no expert on Swedish births and traditions so please correct me if I'm wrong but I believe we now wait until the cabinet or council meeting for the name and duchy, yes? And those are usually held the day after birth? Or do they not do that on a Saturday so we have to wait until Monday?

 

[SLV]

Congratulations to the parents and big brothers!

 

[principessa]

The council meeting will take place on sunday.

https://www.kungahuset.se/kalender.4.7c4768101a4e888378000228.html

 

[REAL COUNTESS]

Congratulation to the family's on both sides. A nother little boy what great news. Welcome to the world little Prince.

 

[Lady Chiara]

Congrats to the New parents and the big brothers!
Welcome to the baby boy!
I was sure they were having a girl but I guess Sofia will Be the sole lady of the family

 

[An Ard Ri]

Ah congratulations to Prince Carl Philip and Sofia!

 

[LadyFinn]

There will be no photo or interview opportunity to the press at the Council of State and and no photo opportunity at Te Deum on Sunday, due to the pandemic.
Kalender - Sveriges Kungahus

 

[eya]

He is here! The new little prince was born earlier today. Both mother and son are doing well.

https://www.kungahuset.se/royalcour...shaloftherealm.5.3d544ca01784aaa522d334f.html

Many Congratulations to the couple!!!!

 

[0325.Mikael.0929]

Great congratulations to the Duke and Duchess of Värmland for their third son! Also, congratulations to the Dukes of Södermanland and Dalarna for their little brother! To think that he is the third royal boy born in 2021 and also the third royal boy born to the Värmland couple.

 

[Lee-Z]

Another son! wonderful news, glad mother and child are well, congratulations to the family

 

[Mbruno]

Aww, congrats. Three little boys.

Which means that the House of Bernadotte now has four agnatic descendants in direct line from King Carl XVI Gustaf.

Of course, under the amended Act of Succession, the throne will pass, however, to the Bernadotte-Westling family following the reign of Queen Victoria.

Congratulations to the parents and tp the rest of the family !

The council meeting will take place on sunday.

https://www.kungahuset.se/kalender.4.7c4768101a4e888378000228.html

I am surprised a Council of State will be held since the newborn is not a member of the Royal House. I guess it was decided that he should get the same treatment as his older brothers who were born, however, as members of the Royal House.


Will he get a duchy though? And a royal coat of arms? As discussed in this forum, those are reserved to members of the Royal House only.

 

[Tatiana Maria]

Will he get a duchy though? And a royal coat of arms? As discussed in this forum, those are reserved to members of the Royal House only.

The awarding of duchies is no longer regulated by statute, but royal coats of arms are. Under current legislation, it is the King's prerogative to award royal coats of arms to members of the Royal House, but (apparently) no one else. Perhaps, as Heavs suggested, the King could reinterpret "Royal House" as "Royal Family".

https://riksdagen.se/sv/dokument-la...ag-1982268-om-sveriges-riksvapen_sfs-1982-268

There will be no photo or interview opportunity to the press at the Council of State and and no photo opportunity at Te Deum on Sunday, due to the pandemic.
Kalender - Sveriges Kungahus

There was also no photo or interview opportunity for the press with the births of Princess Madeleine's two younger children, was there?

Which means that the House of Bernadotte now has four agnatic descendants in direct line from King Carl XVI Gustaf.

Of course, under the amended Act of Succession, the throne will pass, however, to the Bernadotte-Westling family following the reign of Queen Victoria.

You mean during the reign of Queen Victoria? The throne also would not pass to her without the amendment to the Act of Succession.

The Bernadotte-Hellqvist family are also beneficiaries of the amended Act of Succession, as the amendment also removed the rule against marriage with a "Swedish private man's daughter", allowing Prince Carl Philip to keep and pass on his rights to the throne despite marrying the daughter of Erik Hellqvist.

 

[Heavs]

Which means that the House of Bernadotte now has four agnatic descendants in direct line from King Carl XVI Gustaf.

Of course, under the amended Act of Succession, the throne will pass, however, to the Bernadotte-Westling family following the reign of Queen Victoria.

Congratulations to the parents and the rest of the family !

I'm sure it's something CG thinks on but I'm happy that the throne will pass to Victoria. Possibly Carl Philip may not have been as free to marry Sofia if he had been Crown Prince as it took an awfully long time for Daniel before he was able to marry in.

I am surprised a Council of State will be held since the newborn is not a member of the Royal House. I guess it was decided that he should get the same treatment as his older brothers who were born, however, as members of the Royal House.


Will he get a duchy though? And a royal coat of arms? As discussed in this forum, those are reserved to members of the Royal House only.

I assume that they're going to grandfather the COA, Order of the Seraphim and Duchy in so that he is the same as his siblings and the council points to that. I think the Duchy is fine even if not HRH but the other two are more of a question mark.

We might not see the changes in how a "royal" birth but not "Royal House of Sweden" birth is announced under the new rules until this generation starts having children.

 

[Mbruno]

The awarding of duchies is no longer regulated by statute, but royal coats of arms are. Under current legislation, it is the King's prerogative to award royal coats of arms to members of the Royal House, but (apparently) no one else. Perhaps, as Heavs suggested, the King could reinterpret "Royal House" as "Royal Family".

https://riksdagen.se/sv/dokument-la...ag-1982268-om-sveriges-riksvapen_sfs-1982-268

If they do so, I suggest they also reinterpret "Royal House" as "Royal Family" to require that Madeleine's children be raised in Sweden, or that they ask for consent from the government to get married. Or, else, strip them of their succession rights.


You cannot have all the perks of being a member of the Royal House (e.g. being a prince, a duke, and a knight of the Seraphim), and any of the related obligations at the same time.


BTW, I don't recall the exact wording in Swedish of the Order Regulations, but isn't the Order of the Seraphim, like a royal coat of arms, for members of the Royal House only, as opposed to the Royal Family?

You mean during the reign of Queen Victoria? The throne also would not pass to her without the amendment to the Act of Succession.

The Bernadotte-Hellqvist family are also beneficiaries of the amended Act of Succession, as the amendment also removed the rule against marriage with a "Swedish private man's daughter", allowing Prince Carl Philip to keep and pass on his rights to the throne despite marrying the daughter of Erik Hellqvist.

I am assuming Victoria also belongs to the Bernadotte family. The Westling dynasty only begins with Queen Estelle. Since Daniel changed his name to Bernadotte though (again to fudge the rules), I am being somewhat sarcastic and calling the new future dynasty Bernadotte-Westling.



CP and Sofia's children of course also belong to the Bernadotte family, not to a new Bernadotte-Hellqvist family if we adhere to the patrilineal naming convention. As I said, people may dislike it, but unless we stick to a well-defined rule, it becomes impossible to determine precisely when a family begins or becomes extinct.



You are right, however, that CP's unequal marriage (without loss of title and succession rights) was possible only due to the amended Act of Succession.

 

[Tatiana Maria]

I assume that they're going to grandfather the COA, Order of the Seraphim and Duchy in so that he is the same as his siblings and the council points to that. I think the Duchy is fine even if not HRH but the other two are more of a question mark.

That would also be my guess, but I am interested in how the Coat of Arms and Order would be legally justified by the Court. After all, the phrase "Royal House" is plainly used in the laws regulating royal coats of arms and orders.


Lag (1982:268) om Sveriges riksvapen Svensk författningssamling 1982:1982:268 - Riksdagen

Statschefen kan ge andra medlemmar av det kungliga huset tillåtelse att som personligt vapen bruka stora riksvapnet med de ändringar och tillägg som statschefen bestämmer.​

Ordenskungörelse (1974:768) Svensk författningssamling 1974:1974:768 t.o.m. SFS 1995:1025 - Riksdagen

1 § Inom Kungl. Serafimerorden kan utmärkelser tilldelas statschefer och därmed jämställda personer samt medlemmar av det svenska konungahuset. Förordning (1995:1025).

2 § Inom Kungl. Nordstjärneorden kan utmärkelser tilldelas medlemmar av det svenska konungahuset samt utländska medborgare som har gjort personliga insatser för Sverige eller för svenskt intresse.

Med utländsk medborgare likställs statslös som är bosatt utomlands. Förordning (1995:1025).​

I'm sure it's something CG thinks on but I'm happy that the throne will pass to Victoria. Possibly Carl Philip may not have been as free to marry Sofia if he had been Crown Prince as it took an awfully long time for Daniel before he was able to marry in.

Indeed, he would have automatically lost his position as Crown Prince if he had married Sofia Hellqvist under the former Act of Succession. Prince Bertil was able to keep his dynastic rights after marrying a commoner only because she was not a "Swedish private man's daughter", as written in the Act of Succession at the time.

If they do so, I suggest they also reinterpret "Royal House" as "Royal Family" to require that Madeleine's children be raised in Sweden, or that they ask for consent from the government to get married. Or, else, strip them of their succession rights.

You cannot have all the perks of being a member of the Royal House (e.g. being a prince, a duke, and a knight of the Seraphim), and any of the related obligations at the same time.

That is a good point.

I am assuming Victoria also belongs to the Bernadotte family. The Westling dynasty only begins with Queen Estelle. Since Daniel changed his name to Bernadotte though (again to fudge the rules), I am being somewhat sarcastic and calling the new future dynasty Bernadotte-Westling.

CP and Sofia's children of course also belong to the Bernadotte family, not to a new Bernadotte-Hellqvist family if we adhere to the patrilineal naming convention. As I said, people may dislike it, but unless we stick to a well-defined rule, it becomes impossible to determine precisely when a family begins or becomes extinct.

In Sweden the rule that the wife must change her name to that of her husband and not the other way around was abolished nearly 40 years ago, and nothing needed to be "fudged". I do not see why a man taking his wife's family name is more worthy of sarcasm than the reverse.

 

[TLLK]

Congratulations!! Wonderful news.

 

[xenobia]

I am assuming Victoria also belongs to the Bernadotte family. The Westling dynasty only begins with Queen Estelle. Since Daniel changed his name to Bernadotte though (again to fudge the rules), I am being somewhat sarcastic and calling the new future dynasty Bernadotte-Westling.

CP and Sofia's children of course also belong to the Bernadotte family, not to a new Bernadotte-Hellqvist family if we adhere to the patrilineal naming convention. As I said, people may dislike it, but unless we stick to a well-defined rule, it becomes impossible to determine precisely when a family begins or becomes extinct.

You are right, however, that CP's unequal marriage (without loss of title and succession rights) was possible only due to the amended Act of Succession.

We don't do "the patrilineal namning convention" in Sweden these days. The "well-defined rule" here in Sweden is that new families chose the family name. They can pick the brides or grooms name. Or they can chose an old family name, or even make up a new one. It is not assumed that a woman always takes her husbands name.

A family begins when two adults decide that they are a family. What last name (or names) they chose, if they have children and other details is just that. Details. They don't become extinct just because men and women are treated equal.

When it comes to ceremonial things like the Te Deum, duchy, coat of arms and so on, I'm guessing that the king doesn't want to treat this grandchild differently that the others, even if he (the new prince) is technically not a member of the royal house from birth. And I think that is understandable. This is his grandchild. I think we will see the big changes during the next regin/generation.

 

[Mbruno]

That would also be my guess, but I am interested in how the Coat of Arms and Order would be legally justified by the Court. After all, the phrase "Royal House" is plainly used in the laws regulating royal coats of arms and orders.


Lag (1982:268) om Sveriges riksvapen Svensk författningssamling 1982:1982:268 - Riksdagen

Statschefen kan ge andra medlemmar av det kungliga huset tillåtelse att som personligt vapen bruka stora riksvapnet med de ändringar och tillägg som statschefen bestämmer.​

Ordenskungörelse (1974:768) Svensk författningssamling 1974:1974:768 t.o.m. SFS 1995:1025 - Riksdagen

1 § Inom Kungl. Serafimerorden kan utmärkelser tilldelas statschefer och därmed jämställda personer samt medlemmar av det svenska konungahuset. Förordning (1995:1025).

2 § Inom Kungl. Nordstjärneorden kan utmärkelser tilldelas medlemmar av det svenska konungahuset samt utländska medborgare som har gjort personliga insatser för Sverige eller för svenskt intresse.

Med utländsk medborgare likställs statslös som är bosatt utomlands. Förordning (1995:1025).

​

The problem is that "Royal House", as in your previous discussion about Norway, probably originally meant the King and Queen, and all persons in the line of succession (at that time only men), plus their wives and daughters.

After the Act of Succession was amended, the definition of Royal House became unclear.
​

In Sweden the rule that the wife must change her name to that of her husband and not the other way around was abolished nearly 40 years ago, and nothing needed to be "fudged". I do not see why a man taking his wife's family name is more worthy of sarcasm than the reverse.

I am pretty sure that keeping Bernadotte as the Royal Family's name was one of the reasons why Daniel decided or was convinced to adopt his wife's name. So, yes, he was fudging the traditional dynasty naming convention in use in Europe for centuries under which Queen Estelle would belong to the House of Westling, unless she also took up her mother's name (as was decided in the main line for the Mountbatten-Windsor children, or for the Orange-Nassau).

A family begins when two adults decide that they are a family. What last name (or names) they chose, if they have children and other details is just that. Details. They don't become extinct just because men and women are treated equal.
.

Sorry, but to name royal dynasties or to determine which family holds a tile of nobility (attached BTW in Sweden and in the Benelux countries to a given family name), precise and objective family naming conventions are needed. That is why the Belgian Nobility Association for example opposed transmission of nobility in matrilineal line even though children could under Belgian law adopt their mother's maiden name rather than their father's family name. Titles, as well as royal dynasties, do get extinct under the rules of royalty and nobility, whether family members want it or not.


I suppose that, for royal houses, that problem could be solved if they stopped using family names altogether and called themselves only House of Austria, House of France, House of Greece, etc., but, unfortunately that is not what is done in Sweden, or in Spain, or in many countries.


Sorry, I don't want to hijack this forum, which is about CP and Sofia's newborn, to discuss titles. I suggest we move the discussion to a titles forum.

 

[Heavs]

If they do so, I suggest they also reinterpret "Royal House" as "Royal Family" to require that Madeleine's children be raised in Sweden, or that they ask for consent from the government to get married. Or, else, strip them of their succession rights.


You cannot have all the perks of being a member of the Royal House (e.g. being a prince, a duke, and a knight of the Seraphim), and any of the related obligations at the same time.

IIRC the stripping of the HRH's of Sweden was done partly to avoid the issue of Madeleine's children not being raised in Sweden. Since they were no longer members of the Royal House then the thinking was Madeleine and Chris could raise their children however they saw fit and they would still remain in the succession because ...fudging it. But it matters less because they don't get the perk of HRH.

At the time it seemed likely that all his children were finished having their own children so there would be no need to grandfather anyone in so that they're the same as their siblings or less strip COAs and orders away from the children as well as HRH of Sweden.

 

[iceflower]

The little boy and his proud parents have already left the hospital today:


** rex gallery **


** svenskdam article: Carl Philip och Sofia lämnar sjukhuset – första bilderna på nyfödda prinsen **


** dm article: Oh boy! Princess Sofia of Sweden, 36, and husband Prince Carl Philip hold hands as they leave hospital.. **