Birth of Prince Julian Herbert Folke, Duke of Halland: March 26, 2021

[JR76]

With the birth of Prince Julian there are now 11 in the line of succession to the Swedish throne.

Together with the almost two year long period between the birth of Prince Carl Johan in 1916 and the death of Prince Erik in 1918 this is the longest line of succession we've ever had in Sweden.
I wonder when it will start to shorten and for what reason. I suspect that when it happens it will either be because members of the Royal family won't seek the monarch's approval before marrying or someone will leave the Lutheran church for another church, change religion or after marrying someone belonging to a different church /a different religion decide to raise their children in that faith.

 

[An Ard Ri]

Together with the almost two year long period between the birth of Prince Carl Johan in 1916 and the death of Prince Erik in 1918 this is the longest line of succession we've ever had in Sweden.
I wonder when it will start to shorten and for what reason. I suspect that when it happens it will either be because members of the Royal family won't seek the monarch's approval before marrying or someone will leave the Lutheran church for another church, change religion or after marrying someone belonging to a different church /a different religion decide to raise their children in that faith.

That's also what I was thinking as the Swedish Line of succession has always been relatively small over the past few decades.

 

[Marc23]

The name Julian was a little of a surprise

lovely name, julian, a bit unexpected

Well, if he was born in March, he must have been conceived 9 month earlier, which is in July...So, for me, that is the most logical explanation for the name Julian.

 

[Skippy]

So stoked that they went for Julian! Partly because it was among my guesses for him but also because I love the name. It fits right in with Alexander and Gabriel.

And Halland! What a lovely tribute to Bertil who was the third son, just like little Julian is.

With Alexander yes, with Gabriel not so much IMO. But then I didn't like the name Gabriel for their son to begin with - Alexander had me right away.

 

[Princess_Eleanor]

How is Julian pronounced in Swedish’s?

J as the "y" in you
u like the French u (I don't know how else to explain it, it doesn't really exist in English)
li as you would in English, like lily
a like the a in the British pronunciation of potato
n as in English

 

[Prinsara]

Well, if he was born in March, he must have been conceived 9 month earlier, which is in July...So, for me, that is the most logical explanation for the name Julian.

But July is only 8 months earlier.

I said in the other thread I thought "Lilian" might have something to do with it.

 

[kathia_sophia]

Thanks for the video. I thought Julian would be like Juliana, but it seems the "J" is "Y". I became curious about the other children's names, and searched videos of the announcement of their names.

Estelle+Leonore+Nicholas+Oscar+Alexander

Gabriel (At min 1:06)

Adrienne (At min 0:18)

 

[Somebody]

To me the 'ke' of Folke sounds rather strong; but I am not sure whether that is just the Swedish language or more pronounced in the king's speech.

 

[irish_royalist]

Thanks so much to those who have posted these videos of King Carl XVI Gustav declaring the birth of his latest grandchild. I don't really follow the Swedish Royal Family, but The King always comes across as so grumpy and emotionless in photos. In this video he displayed such humour and warmth - I'm so glad!

 

[JR76]

To me the 'ke' of Folke sounds rather strong; but I am not sure whether that is just the Swedish language or more pronounced in the king's speech.

That's just the way the King says it. Most Swedes would pronounce it softer with less emphasis on the last syllable.

 

[JR76]

That's also what I was thinking as the Swedish Line of succession has always been relatively small over the past few decades.

The consequence of going from a very strict Order of Succession to a quite liberal one.

 

[Hans-Rickard]

Together with the almost two year long period between the birth of Prince Carl Johan in 1916 and the death of Prince Erik in 1918 this is the longest line of succession we've ever had in Sweden.
I wonder when it will start to shorten and for what reason. I suspect that when it happens it will either be because members of the Royal family won't seek the monarch's approval before marrying or someone will leave the Lutheran church for another church, change religion or after marrying someone belonging to a different church /a different religion decide to raise their children in that faith.

At the moment it is ”all the descendants of King Carl XVI Gustaf”.

I can imagine a line will be drawn with Carl Philips and Madeleine’s grandchildren. As Princess Estelle and Prince Oscar (hopefully) will have their own families in the future, there wont be any need for any grandchildren of Carl Philip and Madeleine to be in the line of sucession.

Same with the Princely titles. I can very well imagine a ”british” solution will be coming with grandchildren of a reigning monarch (in the junior branches) having the right to be styled as a ”Prince/Princess” but not great grandchildren.... The problem is what they would be styled as instead.... The King of Sweden have no rights to give any titles below a Duke/Duchess.... Some distant relatives are styled as ”Count/Countess Bernadotte af Wisborg but that’s a title in Luxembourg’s nobility... Maybe The King will ask Grand Duke Henri to bestow it upon Prince Carl Philip and Chris O’Neill... Then the children and male-line descendants of the sons would automatically inherit it ��

 

[Somebody]

At the moment it is ”all the descendants of King Carl XVI Gustaf”.

I can imagine a line will be drawn with Carl Philips and Madeleine’s grandchildren. As Princess Estelle and Prince Oscar (hopefully) will have their own families in the future, there wont be any need for any grandchildren of Carl Philip and Madeleine to be in the line of sucession.

Same with the Princely titles. I can very well imagine a ”british” solution will be coming with grandchildren of a reigning monarch (in the junior branches) having the right to be styled as a ”Prince/Princess” but not great grandchildren.... The problem is what they would be styled as instead.... The King of Sweden have no rights to give any titles below a Duke/Duchess.... Some distant relatives are styled as ”Count/Countess Bernadotte af Wisborg but that’s a title in Luxembourg’s nobility... Maybe The King will ask Grand Duke Henri to bestow it upon Prince Carl Philip and Chris O’Neill... Then the children and male-line descendants of the sons would automatically inherit it ��

Why would they need a title? Can't Leonore's and Adrienne's children just go by their father's names? Nicholas' children could go by O'Neill (or Bernadotte; or a combination of both - don't they have both surnames themselves?!); CP's grandchildren could all be known as Bernadotte. A pretty clear marker for being (male-line) descendants of the Swedish royal family.

Given that Chris refused a Swedish title; it doesn't seem likely that he will accept a Luxembourgian one.

 

[Tatiana Maria]

interesting they picked the duchy of Halland for him, i wonder how it got assigned to such a late grandchild. given the association with lilian and bertil, i expected it to be given to one of the first born grandchildren, rather than the 8th.

Most likely the King was reserving Halland for a son of Prince Carl Philip. As well as having Carl Philip (Edmund Bertil) as his godson and namesake, Prince Bertil willed his royal residence to Prince Carl Philip, who made it his family home, and the prince has been regarded by the family and the press as some sort of successor to his great-uncle with comparisons of their interests and engagements.

Ensuring that the only duchy with property (the Stenhammar estate) attached to it would belong to a son of his son was presumably a priority for the King (who also designated Prince Carl Philip as a future leaseholder of Stenhammar), and that is certainly the reason Södermanland was selected for Prince Alexander. Residents of Princess Sofia's home province of Dalarna were quoted in the media stating their disappointment at not being chosen, which accounts for the duchy assigned to Prince Gabriel.

Together with the almost two year long period between the birth of Prince Carl Johan in 1916 and the death of Prince Erik in 1918 this is the longest line of succession we've ever had in Sweden.
I wonder when it will start to shorten and for what reason. I suspect that when it happens it will either be because members of the Royal family won't seek the monarch's approval before marrying or someone will leave the Lutheran church for another church, change religion or after marrying someone belonging to a different church /a different religion decide to raise their children in that faith.

But as Mbruno commented on in message 66 (and explained at greater length here), the Royal Court seems to argue that princes and princesses who are "merely" members of the Royal Family are free from the constitutional obligation for princesses and princes of the Royal House to be raised in Sweden. According to the same logic, they would also be free from the constitutional obligation for princesses and princes of the Royal House to ask the King's consent to their marriages.

 

[JR76]

Why would they need a title? Can't Leonore's and Adrienne's children just go by their father's names? Nicholas' children could go by O'Neill (or Bernadotte; or a combination of both - don't they have both surnames themselves?!);

Call me old-fashioned (I know I am) but I personally think it's a pity that Carl-Philip's grandchildren will be left without a title. I was quite surprised by the decision to remove their styles and titles given the many references I've heard and read the King make about his attachment to the Bernadotte family line. Not talking about the Order of succession but of the family line.

CP's grandchildren could all be known as Bernadotte. A pretty clear marker for being (male-line) descendants of the Swedish royal family.

Not really. Anyone can change their surname to Bernadotte. It caused quite a few headlines a few years back when a "reality-show scandal queen" changed her name to Bernadotte. But your right in that it's definitely a name that would give you some attention.

 

[Hans-Rickard]

Why would they need a title? Can't Leonore's and Adrienne's children just go by their father's names? Nicholas' children could go by O'Neill (or Bernadotte; or a combination of both - don't they have both surnames themselves?!); CP's grandchildren could all be known as Bernadotte. A pretty clear marker for being (male-line) descendants of the Swedish royal family.

Given that Chris refused a Swedish title; it doesn't seem likely that he will accept a Luxembourgian one.

Maybe they can..... It’s just that NO ONE in the Swedish Royal Family has ever been known as Mr and Mrs Bernadotte... There have always been a Noble, a Ducal or a Princely title attached to it... NO ONE from the Royal Family or with royal Blood in the veins has ever been known as simply Mr and Mrs Bernadotte.... That’s why i am questioning wether ”Bernadotte” can be used as a ”normal” surname at all for a Member of the Royal Family....

I am not arguing against anyone, i am just questioning wether it’s a possibility at all.... I am not that sure... The Lord and Lady Mountbatten-Windsor way has never ever existed here in Sweden...

I agree that children of Leonor and Adrienne will likely be known by their fathers name, wether he is a Prince of Bourbon-Parma or a Mr Boris Johnson.

 

[Tatiana Maria]

Anyone can change their surname to Bernadotte. It caused quite a few headlines a few years back when a "reality-show scandal queen" changed her name to Bernadotte. But your right in that it's definitely a name that would give you some attention.

I'm not familiar with that situation, but the name law concedes protection to existing surnames that are carried by fewer than 2,000 people. An individual would be required to demonstrate for example a family connection to the surname, or permission from the existing carriers of the name, to legally acquire it. Wouldn't Bernadotte be sufficiently rare to be entitled to that protection?

And technically, anyone can call themselves Prince or Princess as well, even though it would not be legally recognized.

 

[Tatiana Maria]

Maybe they can..... It’s just that NO ONE in the Swedish Royal Family has ever been known as Mr and Mrs Bernadotte... There have always been a Noble, a Ducal or a Princely title attached to it... NO ONE from the Royal Family or with royal Blood in the veins has ever been known as simply Mr and Mrs Bernadotte.... That’s why i am questioning wether ”Bernadotte” can be used as a ”normal” surname at all for a Member of the Royal Family....

Former princes Lennart, Sigvard, and Carl Johan were known as Mr. Bernadotte prior to their elevation into the Luxembourgian nobility. There are today descendants of Carl Johan still known as Mr. Bernadotte, due to adoptive descendants being apparently unable to inherit the title.

The royal court styles the children of Countess Bettina Bernadotte af Wisborg as Miss or Mr. Bernadotte af Wisborg, rather than Countess or Count.

 

[JR76]

Maybe they can..... It’s just that NO ONE in the Swedish Royal Family has ever been known as Mr and Mrs Bernadotte... There have always been a Noble, a Ducal or a Princely title attached to it... NO ONE from the Royal Family or with royal Blood in the veins has ever been known as simply Mr and Mrs Bernadotte.... That’s why i am questioning wether ”Bernadotte” can be used as a ”normal” surname at all for a Member of the Royal Family....

I am not arguing against anyone, i am just questioning wether it’s a possibility at all.... I am not that sure... The Lord and Lady Mountbatten-Windsor way has never ever existed here in Sweden...

I agree that children of Leonor and Adrienne will likely be known by their fathers name, wether he is a Prince of Bourbon-Parma or a Mr Boris Johnson.

Princes Lennart, Sigvard & Carl-Johan together with their wives and children were in fact all Mr & Mrs Bernadotte between the princes exclusion from the Royal House upon marriage and them receiving the title of Count Bernadotte of Wisborg in 1951.

 

[Skippy]

I'm not familiar with that situation, but the name law concedes protection to existing surnames that are carried by fewer than 2,000 people. An individual would be required to demonstrate for example a family connection to the surname, or permission from the existing carriers of the name, to legally acquire it. Wouldn't Bernadotte be sufficiently rare to be entitled to that protection?

And technically, anyone can call themselves Prince or Princess as well, even though it would not be legally recognized.

The "reality-show scandal queen" JR76 refers to is, when I am correct (if not, please correct me), the former fröken Sofia Hellqvist whose last name became Bernadotte when she married Carl Philip.
The threads here exploded upon their engagement, but that's another story.

Now they have three sons, and going down the patrilineal line, the Bernadotte dynasty will live on for a long time. Thanks to Alexander, Gabriel and Julian.


On the Te Deum for the latter's birth, I noticed little Alexander in a suit. How handsome that guy already is, wow.

 

[JR76]

I'm not familiar with that situation, but the name law concedes protection to existing surnames that are carried by fewer than 2,000 people. An individual would be required to demonstrate for example a family connection to the surname, or permission from the existing carriers of the name, to legally acquire it. Wouldn't Bernadotte be sufficiently rare to be entitled to that protection?

And technically, anyone can call themselves Prince or Princess as well, even though it would not be legally recognized.

You're right. I did some looking around after writing my last post and apparently the reality "star" could take the name because it's a family name of hers. Currently there are about 40-50 people in Sweden with the surname that are not related to the Royal family.

 

[Hans-Rickard]

Princes Lennart, Sigvard & Carl-Johan together with their wives and children were in fact all Mr & Mrs Bernadotte between the princes exclusion from the Royal House upon marriage and them receiving the title of Count Bernadotte of Wisborg in 1951.

I take back my previous post... Ofcourse they were...

Though i wonder if that really is an option for the future.... Wouldn’t that be seen as a ”snub” if they haven’t done something wrong ? Sigvard, Lennart and Carl Johan did something wich upset their family deeply... Being born as a great-grandchild of Carl XVI Gustaf is hardly upsetting :-D

I don’t know... But as the constitution currently is under review in the parliament wich includes deciding how big the Royal Family should be in the future, so i expect a statement coming about this some time.

 

[Hans-Rickard]

The "reality-show scandal queen" JR76 refers to is, when I am correct (if not, please correct me), the former fröken Sofia Hellqvist whose last name became Bernadotte when she married Carl Philip.
The threads here exploded upon their engagement, but that's another story.

Now they have three sons, and going down the patrilineal line, the Bernadotte dynasty will live on for a long time. Thanks to Alexander, Gabriel and Julian.


On the Te Deum for the latter's birth, I noticed little Alexander in a suit. How handsome that guy already is, wow.

No it’s about Tone Bernadotte Oppenstam.

 

[JR76]

The "reality-show scandal queen" JR76 refers to is, when I am correct (if not, please correct me), the former fröken Sofia Hellqvist whose last name became Bernadotte when she married Carl Philip.
The threads here exploded upon their engagement, but that's another story.

Now they have three sons, and going down the patrilineal line, the Bernadotte dynasty will live on for a long time. Thanks to Alexander, Gabriel and Julian.


On the Te Deum for the latter's birth, I noticed little Alexander in a suit. How handsome that guy already is, wow.

No, it's another one. Sofia (who was never the reality-show scandal queen the media tried to portray her as) acquired her new surname in the old fashioned way by marriage [emoji6]

 

[JR76]

The Constitution itself is not under review (thankfully given the state of Parliament these days) but the System of Orders, customs and laws regulating the public use of flags (this could have some very controversial, non-royalty related, consequences) and how the monarchy is financed are. The latter it has been implied could also cover the membership of the Royal House by limiting those able to receive funding and be expected to perform public duties. The result of this inquiry could therefore affect the Constitution by association even if that was not the intent neither by the original brief given by Parliament to the Government nor by the brief given by the Government to the Constitutional assembly. If so it could, because of the requirements regarding the altering of the Constitution, be up to 8 years before a final decision has been made and implemented.

 

[Somebody]

Call me old-fashioned (I know I am) but I personally think it's a pity that Carl-Philip's grandchildren will be left without a title. I was quite surprised by the decision to remove their styles and titles given the many references I've heard and read the King make about his attachment to the Bernadotte family line. Not talking about the Order of succession but of the family line.

I agree that it would have been nice if the male-line would be able to keep the titles (or at least become 'prince(ss) Bernadotte' if a distinction between the main and collateral lines would be desirable); however, it seems inevitable as a result of the decision to also award titles to the children of princesses. From my perspective, either titles should be reserved for the male line (and the heir); or titles need to be limited to the degree of kinship to avoid multiplication of titles over generations.

N.B. I was a disappointed as well that for example Constantijn and Laurentien's children are mere counts and countesses and not princes and princesses of Orange-Nassau. It made a bit more sense in the case of Friso and Mabel as they married without consent.

 

[Marc23]

But July is only 8 months earlier.

I said in the other thread I thought "Lilian" might have something to do with it.

1. July
2. August
3. September
4. October
5. November
6. December
7. January
8. February
9. March

That's 9 months. The baby is born at the end of March.

Even if your theory about 8 months stays, maybe the baby was born a little bit earlier. For example, I was born more than a month before I was scheduled.

In lack of other logical explanations, my theory is that he is conceived in July and that his name is Julian because of that...

But, maybe I am wrong and if so, I hope we will find out soon.

 

[Somebody]

While I agree that the baby was most likely conceived in July (note: a pregnancy isn't 9 months; but 9 months minus 1 week; so if the baby was right on time it would be early July), I don't see why that would be the reason to call their son Julian. Because why are their other sons called 'Alexander' and 'Gabriel'? Instead of August (for Alexander) and Janne (for Gabriel)? Using your logic of 8 months instead of 9.

My husband's theory after hearing the names of the elder sons was that the couple preferred 'the greatest': Alexander after 'Alexander the Great' and Gabriel after archangel Gabriel; so along those lines Julian could refer to Julius Caesar (and in that way indirectly to the month of July that was named after him).

 

[JR76]

My husband's theory after hearing the names of the elder sons was that the couple preferred 'the greatest': Alexander after 'Alexander the Great' and Gabriel after archangel Gabriel; so along those lines Julian could refer to Julius Caesar (and in that way indirectly to the month of July that was named after him).

Julius or Jules was also one of the names of Carl XIV Johan before his adoption.

 

[Mbruno]

Ensuring that the only duchy with property (the Stenhammar estate) attached to it would belong to a son of his son was presumably a priority for the King (who also designated Prince Carl Philip as a future leaseholder of Stenhammar), and that is certainly the reason Södermanland was selected for Prince Alexander.

That was probably the original plan. However, the will says:

"Finnes vid något utarrenderingstillfälle någon svensk undersåte varande, eventuell arvsrätt till tronen ägande, prins av det regerande konungahuset, som är hertig av Södermanland, så äger han företrädesrätt till arrendet, om han eller hans målsman så önskar".

Alexander is Duke of Södermanland and a possible heir to the throne, but, since he is no longer a prince of the Royal House, it can be argued that he no longer qualifies under the terms of the will.



King Carl Gustaf, probably unintentionally, has created lots of complications when he decided to abandon to old usage of "prince of the royal house" to designate all male persons in the line of succession to the throne.