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  #21  
Old 03-26-2021, 01:05 PM
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Originally Posted by Heavs View Post
Aww, congrats. Three little boys.

Which means that the House of Bernadotte now has four agnatic descendants in direct line from King Carl XVI Gustaf.

Of course, under the amended Act of Succession, the throne will pass, however, to the Bernadotte-Westling family following the reign of Queen Victoria.

Congratulations to the parents and tp the rest of the family !


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Originally Posted by principessa View Post
The council meeting will take place on sunday.

https://www.kungahuset.se/kalender.4...378000228.html


I am surprised a Council of State will be held since the newborn is not a member of the Royal House. I guess it was decided that he should get the same treatment as his older brothers who were born, however, as members of the Royal House.


Will he get a duchy though? And a royal coat of arms? As discussed in this forum, those are reserved to members of the Royal House only.
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  #22  
Old 03-26-2021, 01:24 PM
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Originally Posted by Mbruno View Post
Will he get a duchy though? And a royal coat of arms? As discussed in this forum, those are reserved to members of the Royal House only.
The awarding of duchies is no longer regulated by statute, but royal coats of arms are. Under current legislation, it is the King's prerogative to award royal coats of arms to members of the Royal House, but (apparently) no one else. Perhaps, as Heavs suggested, the King could reinterpret "Royal House" as "Royal Family".

https://riksdagen.se/sv/dokument-lag...n_sfs-1982-268


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Originally Posted by LadyFinn View Post
There will be no photo or interview opportunity to the press at the Council of State and and no photo opportunity at Te Deum on Sunday, due to the pandemic.
Kalender - Sveriges Kungahus
There was also no photo or interview opportunity for the press with the births of Princess Madeleine's two younger children, was there?


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Originally Posted by Mbruno View Post
Which means that the House of Bernadotte now has four agnatic descendants in direct line from King Carl XVI Gustaf.

Of course, under the amended Act of Succession, the throne will pass, however, to the Bernadotte-Westling family following the reign of Queen Victoria.
You mean during the reign of Queen Victoria? The throne also would not pass to her without the amendment to the Act of Succession.

The Bernadotte-Hellqvist family are also beneficiaries of the amended Act of Succession, as the amendment also removed the rule against marriage with a "Swedish private man's daughter", allowing Prince Carl Philip to keep and pass on his rights to the throne despite marrying the daughter of Erik Hellqvist.
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  #23  
Old 03-26-2021, 01:25 PM
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Originally Posted by Mbruno View Post
Which means that the House of Bernadotte now has four agnatic descendants in direct line from King Carl XVI Gustaf.

Of course, under the amended Act of Succession, the throne will pass, however, to the Bernadotte-Westling family following the reign of Queen Victoria.

Congratulations to the parents and the rest of the family !
I'm sure it's something CG thinks on but I'm happy that the throne will pass to Victoria. Possibly Carl Philip may not have been as free to marry Sofia if he had been Crown Prince as it took an awfully long time for Daniel before he was able to marry in.

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Originally Posted by Mbruno View Post
I am surprised a Council of State will be held since the newborn is not a member of the Royal House. I guess it was decided that he should get the same treatment as his older brothers who were born, however, as members of the Royal House.


Will he get a duchy though? And a royal coat of arms? As discussed in this forum, those are reserved to members of the Royal House only.
I assume that they're going to grandfather the COA, Order of the Seraphim and Duchy in so that he is the same as his siblings and the council points to that. I think the Duchy is fine even if not HRH but the other two are more of a question mark.

We might not see the changes in how a "royal" birth but not "Royal House of Sweden" birth is announced under the new rules until this generation starts having children.
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  #24  
Old 03-26-2021, 01:40 PM
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Originally Posted by Tatiana Maria View Post
The awarding of duchies is no longer regulated by statute, but royal coats of arms are. Under current legislation, it is the King's prerogative to award royal coats of arms to members of the Royal House, but (apparently) no one else. Perhaps, as Heavs suggested, the King could reinterpret "Royal House" as "Royal Family".

https://riksdagen.se/sv/dokument-lag...n_sfs-1982-268

If they do so, I suggest they also reinterpret "Royal House" as "Royal Family" to require that Madeleine's children be raised in Sweden, or that they ask for consent from the government to get married. Or, else, strip them of their succession rights.


You cannot have all the perks of being a member of the Royal House (e.g. being a prince, a duke, and a knight of the Seraphim), and any of the related obligations at the same time.


BTW, I don't recall the exact wording in Swedish of the Order Regulations, but isn't the Order of the Seraphim, like a royal coat of arms, for members of the Royal House only, as opposed to the Royal Family?


Quote:

You mean during the reign of Queen Victoria? The throne also would not pass to her without the amendment to the Act of Succession.

The Bernadotte-Hellqvist family are also beneficiaries of the amended Act of Succession, as the amendment also removed the rule against marriage with a "Swedish private man's daughter", allowing Prince Carl Philip to keep and pass on his rights to the throne despite marrying the daughter of Erik Hellqvist.
I am assuming Victoria also belongs to the Bernadotte family. The Westling dynasty only begins with Queen Estelle. Since Daniel changed his name to Bernadotte though (again to fudge the rules), I am being somewhat sarcastic and calling the new future dynasty Bernadotte-Westling.



CP and Sofia's children of course also belong to the Bernadotte family, not to a new Bernadotte-Hellqvist family if we adhere to the patrilineal naming convention. As I said, people may dislike it, but unless we stick to a well-defined rule, it becomes impossible to determine precisely when a family begins or becomes extinct.



You are right, however, that CP's unequal marriage (without loss of title and succession rights) was possible only due to the amended Act of Succession.
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  #25  
Old 03-26-2021, 01:54 PM
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Originally Posted by Heavs View Post
I assume that they're going to grandfather the COA, Order of the Seraphim and Duchy in so that he is the same as his siblings and the council points to that. I think the Duchy is fine even if not HRH but the other two are more of a question mark.
That would also be my guess, but I am interested in how the Coat of Arms and Order would be legally justified by the Court. After all, the phrase "Royal House" is plainly used in the laws regulating royal coats of arms and orders.


Lag (1982:268) om Sveriges riksvapen Svensk författningssamling 1982:1982:268 - Riksdagen
Statschefen kan ge andra medlemmar av det kungliga huset tillåtelse att som personligt vapen bruka stora riksvapnet med de ändringar och tillägg som statschefen bestämmer.

Ordenskungörelse (1974:768) Svensk författningssamling 1974:1974:768 t.o.m. SFS 1995:1025 - Riksdagen
1 § Inom Kungl. Serafimerorden kan utmärkelser tilldelas statschefer och därmed jämställda personer samt medlemmar av det svenska konungahuset. Förordning (1995:1025).

2 § Inom Kungl. Nordstjärneorden kan utmärkelser tilldelas medlemmar av det svenska konungahuset samt utländska medborgare som har gjort personliga insatser för Sverige eller för svenskt intresse.

Med utländsk medborgare likställs statslös som är bosatt utomlands. Förordning (1995:1025).

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Originally Posted by Heavs View Post
I'm sure it's something CG thinks on but I'm happy that the throne will pass to Victoria. Possibly Carl Philip may not have been as free to marry Sofia if he had been Crown Prince as it took an awfully long time for Daniel before he was able to marry in.
Indeed, he would have automatically lost his position as Crown Prince if he had married Sofia Hellqvist under the former Act of Succession. Prince Bertil was able to keep his dynastic rights after marrying a commoner only because she was not a "Swedish private man's daughter", as written in the Act of Succession at the time.


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Originally Posted by Mbruno View Post
If they do so, I suggest they also reinterpret "Royal House" as "Royal Family" to require that Madeleine's children be raised in Sweden, or that they ask for consent from the government to get married. Or, else, strip them of their succession rights.

You cannot have all the perks of being a member of the Royal House (e.g. being a prince, a duke, and a knight of the Seraphim), and any of the related obligations at the same time.
That is a good point.



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Originally Posted by Mbruno View Post
I am assuming Victoria also belongs to the Bernadotte family. The Westling dynasty only begins with Queen Estelle. Since Daniel changed his name to Bernadotte though (again to fudge the rules), I am being somewhat sarcastic and calling the new future dynasty Bernadotte-Westling.

CP and Sofia's children of course also belong to the Bernadotte family, not to a new Bernadotte-Hellqvist family if we adhere to the patrilineal naming convention. As I said, people may dislike it, but unless we stick to a well-defined rule, it becomes impossible to determine precisely when a family begins or becomes extinct.
In Sweden the rule that the wife must change her name to that of her husband and not the other way around was abolished nearly 40 years ago, and nothing needed to be "fudged". I do not see why a man taking his wife's family name is more worthy of sarcasm than the reverse.
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  #26  
Old 03-26-2021, 01:57 PM
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Congratulations!! Wonderful news.
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  #27  
Old 03-26-2021, 02:03 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mbruno View Post
I am assuming Victoria also belongs to the Bernadotte family. The Westling dynasty only begins with Queen Estelle. Since Daniel changed his name to Bernadotte though (again to fudge the rules), I am being somewhat sarcastic and calling the new future dynasty Bernadotte-Westling.

CP and Sofia's children of course also belong to the Bernadotte family, not to a new Bernadotte-Hellqvist family if we adhere to the patrilineal naming convention. As I said, people may dislike it, but unless we stick to a well-defined rule, it becomes impossible to determine precisely when a family begins or becomes extinct.

You are right, however, that CP's unequal marriage (without loss of title and succession rights) was possible only due to the amended Act of Succession.
We don't do "the patrilineal namning convention" in Sweden these days. The "well-defined rule" here in Sweden is that new families chose the family name. They can pick the brides or grooms name. Or they can chose an old family name, or even make up a new one. It is not assumed that a woman always takes her husbands name.

A family begins when two adults decide that they are a family. What last name (or names) they chose, if they have children and other details is just that. Details. They don't become extinct just because men and women are treated equal.

When it comes to ceremonial things like the Te Deum, duchy, coat of arms and so on, I'm guessing that the king doesn't want to treat this grandchild differently that the others, even if he (the new prince) is technically not a member of the royal house from birth. And I think that is understandable. This is his grandchild. I think we will see the big changes during the next regin/generation.
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  #28  
Old 03-26-2021, 02:12 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tatiana Maria View Post
That would also be my guess, but I am interested in how the Coat of Arms and Order would be legally justified by the Court. After all, the phrase "Royal House" is plainly used in the laws regulating royal coats of arms and orders.


Lag (1982:268) om Sveriges riksvapen Svensk författningssamling 1982:1982:268 - Riksdagen
Statschefen kan ge andra medlemmar av det kungliga huset tillåtelse att som personligt vapen bruka stora riksvapnet med de ändringar och tillägg som statschefen bestämmer.
Ordenskungörelse (1974:768) Svensk författningssamling 1974:1974:768 t.o.m. SFS 1995:1025 - Riksdagen
1 § Inom Kungl. Serafimerorden kan utmärkelser tilldelas statschefer och därmed jämställda personer samt medlemmar av det svenska konungahuset. Förordning (1995:1025).

2 § Inom Kungl. Nordstjärneorden kan utmärkelser tilldelas medlemmar av det svenska konungahuset samt utländska medborgare som har gjort personliga insatser för Sverige eller för svenskt intresse.

Med utländsk medborgare likställs statslös som är bosatt utomlands. Förordning (1995:1025).



The problem is that "Royal House", as in your previous discussion about Norway, probably originally meant the King and Queen, and all persons in the line of succession (at that time only men), plus their wives and daughters.

After the Act of Succession was amended, the definition of Royal House became unclear.
Quote:
In Sweden the rule that the wife must change her name to that of her husband and not the other way around was abolished nearly 40 years ago, and nothing needed to be "fudged". I do not see why a man taking his wife's family name is more worthy of sarcasm than the reverse.
I am pretty sure that keeping Bernadotte as the Royal Family's name was one of the reasons why Daniel decided or was convinced to adopt his wife's name. So, yes, he was fudging the traditional dynasty naming convention in use in Europe for centuries under which Queen Estelle would belong to the House of Westling, unless she also took up her mother's name (as was decided in the main line for the Mountbatten-Windsor children, or for the Orange-Nassau).


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Originally Posted by xenobia View Post
A family begins when two adults decide that they are a family. What last name (or names) they chose, if they have children and other details is just that. Details. They don't become extinct just because men and women are treated equal.
.

Sorry, but to name royal dynasties or to determine which family holds a tile of nobility (attached BTW in Sweden and in the Benelux countries to a given family name), precise and objective family naming conventions are needed. That is why the Belgian Nobility Association for example opposed transmission of nobility in matrilineal line even though children could under Belgian law adopt their mother's maiden name rather than their father's family name. Titles, as well as royal dynasties, do get extinct under the rules of royalty and nobility, whether family members want it or not.


I suppose that, for royal houses, that problem could be solved if they stopped using family names altogether and called themselves only House of Austria, House of France, House of Greece, etc., but, unfortunately that is not what is done in Sweden, or in Spain, or in many countries.


Sorry, I don't want to hijack this forum, which is about CP and Sofia's newborn, to discuss titles. I suggest we move the discussion to a titles forum.
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  #29  
Old 03-26-2021, 02:17 PM
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Originally Posted by Mbruno View Post
If they do so, I suggest they also reinterpret "Royal House" as "Royal Family" to require that Madeleine's children be raised in Sweden, or that they ask for consent from the government to get married. Or, else, strip them of their succession rights.


You cannot have all the perks of being a member of the Royal House (e.g. being a prince, a duke, and a knight of the Seraphim), and any of the related obligations at the same time.
IIRC the stripping of the HRH's of Sweden was done partly to avoid the issue of Madeleine's children not being raised in Sweden. Since they were no longer members of the Royal House then the thinking was Madeleine and Chris could raise their children however they saw fit and they would still remain in the succession because ...fudging it. But it matters less because they don't get the perk of HRH.

At the time it seemed likely that all his children were finished having their own children so there would be no need to grandfather anyone in so that they're the same as their siblings or less strip COAs and orders away from the children as well as HRH of Sweden.
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  #30  
Old 03-26-2021, 02:25 PM
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The little boy and his proud parents have already left the hospital today:


** rex gallery **


** svenskdam article: Carl Philip och Sofia lämnar sjukhuset – första bilderna på nyfödda prinsen **


** dm article: Oh boy! Princess Sofia of Sweden, 36, and husband Prince Carl Philip hold hands as they leave hospital..
**
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  #31  
Old 03-26-2021, 02:43 PM
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Sorry, but to name royal dynasties or to determine which family holds a tile of nobility (attached BTW in Sweden and in the Benelux countries to a given family name), precise and objective family naming conventions are needed. [...]
That's not always the case. There are many people that are members of the Swedish nobility but doesn't carry the surname that is registered with the House of Nobility. When this happens it's noted in the "Adelskalender" the nobility register which is published every third year as "members of the family carry the surname of....".
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Old 03-26-2021, 02:44 PM
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  #33  
Old 03-26-2021, 02:58 PM
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Wonderful news! Congratulations ♥♥♥
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  #34  
Old 03-26-2021, 03:09 PM
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Originally Posted by Mbruno View Post
So, yes, he was fudging the traditional dynasty naming convention in use in Europe for centuries under which Queen Estelle would belong to the House of Westling, unless she also took up her mother's name (as was decided in the main line for the Mountbatten-Windsor children, or for the Orange-Nassau).
To my understanding "fudging" signifies deceit, rather than choosing to follow current conventions over historical ones.

Under the traditional dynasty naming convention for use in Europe for centuries in the past (although not in the last two hundred years or thereabouts), Victoria herself would have been regarded as a member of the royal house of her husband, even if she would have been posthumously known as Victoria Bernadotte in the historical record. (And in those days, her husband would never have been a mere Westling. )


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Originally Posted by Mbruno View Post
Sorry, but to name royal dynasties or to determine which family holds a tile of nobility [...] precise and objective family naming conventions are needed.
Precision and objectivity are not dependent on patrilineality. As of 2012 the name law was quite precise: Where parents bore a surname in common at the moment of their first child's birth (as was the case for Victoria and Daniel thanks to the latter legally changing to his spouse's surname), the surname was automatically inherited by the said child. The gender of each parent was irrelevant.

The Royal House's website is also precise: All of the King's descendants and their spouses are listed as "members of the Bernadotte dynasty".

In contrast, many other royal or noble families, whether we like it or not, have an imprecise approach to their family names; the discussions in the British and Belgian sections of this forum will testify to that. Japan uses no name whatsoever for its royal dynasty.


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Originally Posted by Mbruno View Post
Titles, as well as royal dynasties, do get extinct under the rules of royalty and nobility, whether family members want it or not.
As matters currently stand, titles and dynastic rights have a higher likelihood of becoming extinct in Carl Philip's lineage than Victoria's. But yes, that is better discussed in the title-thread.
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  #35  
Old 03-26-2021, 03:20 PM
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This little Prince was in a hurry to be born. They are already on their way home. So everything went fine and that is good. Now waiting for the Name Duchy and a cute photo of his little face.
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  #36  
Old 03-26-2021, 05:18 PM
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The happiest days are when a baby is born!
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  #37  
Old 03-26-2021, 06:11 PM
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Congratulations to the whole family!
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  #38  
Old 03-26-2021, 06:17 PM
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Ohhh!! A little boy! I thought they would have a girl but what matters is that the baby is healthy. Yet, it makes me wonder if they'll try for a 4th child? Who knows, but if they truly want a daughter, they might try, some people don't give up

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This little Prince was in a hurry to be born. They are already on their way home. So everything went fine and that is good. Now waiting for the Name Duchy and a cute photo of his little face.
I thought the baby due date was late March/early April. If so, then the prince is not late, but on time.
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Old 03-26-2021, 06:25 PM
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Now every child of Carl Gustaf and Silvia has one child which is born in March.
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Old 03-26-2021, 07:58 PM
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That is great news! I had a feeling it'll be a boy. Cannot wait to hear the little Prince's name
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