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  #21  
Old 10-17-2020, 06:10 AM
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Wow, I am shocked by this. I always thought WA and Maxima were fab but this seems such a silly and unnecessary thing to do and extremely out of touch, I can't help but make that usual awful cliche about "let them eat cake". Even if it is within the law there is something to be said for monarchs at least pretending to "be in this with their people" even if they can do it from luxury mansions with plenty of open space to comply with the government's request to the rest of the country to stay at home.

Their statement is disappointing as it shows they don't feel the need to apologize, to be honest IMO saying "We see people's reactions to media reports. And they are intense, and they affect us." is basically saying - we are doing this because we know people will dislike us if we don't and we need to save face, it doesn't actually say they were wrong more "oops we got caught and for that we are sorry as it means we have to come back home"

When you consider that their people are being asked to stay at home during this time to prevent the virus spreading, the super rich King & Queen flying off in a publicly funded government plane with (presumably) a number of (publicly funded) staff along with them to their super luxurious holiday home hardly strikes of being "with the people"

I've always been impressed with how "grand" in many ways the Dutch RF has seemed over time, I wondered if that was just the way Beatrix presented herself but it does seem as if, with a number of recent things, they really are perhaps getting a little too grand.
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  #22  
Old 10-17-2020, 06:12 AM
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Originally Posted by MissJanet View Post
How is this a big deal? Most people in the Netherlands don't wear masks and seem to drastically underestimate the danger of COVID-19. in that light, the outrage about the royal family feels quite phony. Maybe some anti-royals push an agenda.
The thing is, that this is rapidly changing, and just this week, the weekly announcement from the prime-minister has set a lot of much more rigid measures than the week before (not to mention the period before that), reason is the nr of contaminations with covid are strongly on the rise and we want to avoid a total lock down if we can.
Currently these are some of measures taken:
- you can have max. 3 visitors in your house
- outdoors max 4 people together
- work from home unless it's really impossible
- bars and restaurants are closed (takeaway or food delivery is possible)
- travel as little as possible, always wear a facial mask
- facial mask mandatory in stores, no sale of alcohol after 8 pm, separate store openingtimes for elderly

these weeks have the autumn holiday week for many dutch citizens, but with travelling in the country strongly discouraged and travelling to a neighbouring country like Belgium isn't allowed for holidays, many people have to come to terms with spending another vacation at home.
Travelling to Greece currently has an "orange advice" from the dutch government, meaning only travel when necessary and on return 10 days in quarantine at home.

so yes, in that light the RF going to Greece is not a good sign and certainly not being a rolemodel to the people like the RF is supposed to be
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  #23  
Old 10-17-2020, 06:16 AM
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Lets hope they avoid giving any speeches re coronavirus and working together to defeat it in the near future. If not, I think the audience might feel they were hypocrites.
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  #24  
Old 10-17-2020, 07:04 AM
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Originally Posted by MissJanet View Post
How is this a big deal? Most people in the Netherlands don't wear masks and seem to drastically underestimate the danger of COVID-19. in that light, the outrage about the royal family feels quite phony. Maybe some anti-royals push an agenda.
But those people are not the King and Queen, and it seems that those people are not following the rules established by the government.


The Monarch must set a good example for the people, some will follow that example, while others won't, but it will show that the Monarchy is aware of the current situation and is willing to comply with the government rules to combat the pandemic. However, their lack of awareness and sensibility will probably give most people the feeling of "if they can do it, I can do it too". This is a dangerous thought given the horrible times we are currently living in. Therefore, the Monarchy needs to give a sense of responsability and empathy in dealing with the current times.
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  #25  
Old 10-17-2020, 08:19 AM
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Originally Posted by kathia_sophia View Post
But those people are not the King and Queen, and it seems that those people are not following the rules established by the government.


The Monarch must set a good example for the people, some will follow that example, while others won't, but it will show that the Monarchy is aware of the current situation and is willing to comply with the government rules to combat the pandemic. However, their lack of awareness and sensibility will probably give most people the feeling of "if they can do it, I can do it too". This is a dangerous thought given the horrible times we are currently living in. Therefore, the Monarchy needs to give a sense of responsability and empathy in dealing with the current times.
If the changes in the rules happened only recently, Im sure that there are other people who had holidays booked that they could not cancel.. and so possibly they have gone ahead with them.... Having said that I doubt if the King and Queen are really bothered per se, its just that they have been criticized and feel that they have to make some gesture or they will look bad....
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  #26  
Old 10-17-2020, 08:25 AM
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https://translate.google.com/transla...aar-media.html

royalty expert from dutch media nu.nl (would rank this is a mainstream media outlet, not overly royalist or republican) agrees with several posters here that the king doesn't apologize but points to the media (like when they were spotted without a facial mask close to ther people a while ago).

imo this is basically what it looks like:
"it is therefore surprising to Evers that apparently no one has warned the king about the negative image that may arise.*"It seems that no one is allowed to say anything about the holiday of the House of Orange and that it is sacred. He has three wise adolescent daughters who could have been his best adviser in it: they see that their friends are not going on a holiday"

the current dutch king and queen don't often get critique, but this is one that regularly returns
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  #27  
Old 10-17-2020, 08:33 AM
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Originally Posted by Denville View Post
If the changes in the rules happened only recently, Im sure that there are other people who had holidays booked that they could not cancel.. and so possibly they have gone ahead with them.... Having said that I doubt if the King and Queen are really bothered per se, its just that they have been criticized and feel that they have to make some gesture or they will look bad....
most ordinary people already realized that holidays away from home would be in jeopardy and haven't booked like they would normally do

that said, i hardly think that applies to king and queen, their holiday to greece is hardly a package holiday deal that they can't get out of
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  #28  
Old 10-17-2020, 08:39 AM
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Originally Posted by Denville View Post
If the changes in the rules happened only recently, Im sure that there are other people who had holidays booked that they could not cancel.. and so possibly they have gone ahead with them.... Having said that I doubt if the King and Queen are really bothered per se, its just that they have been criticized and feel that they have to make some gesture or they will look bad....
You're right. Some people cannot cancel their booked holidays due to several circumstances. It seems we are living in a time where booking trips in advance is tricky. Things change every week and every day. I know many people cannot afford to do this, but the best way is to book things at the last minute.


Since the King and Queen have a private jet and own a villa in Greece, they never book things in advance, they just decide to go and that's it. That's the real problem. They probably decided to go right when the government changed the rules recently.
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  #29  
Old 10-17-2020, 08:40 AM
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Originally Posted by Denville View Post
If the changes in the rules happened only recently, Im sure that there are other people who had holidays booked that they could not cancel.. and so possibly they have gone ahead with them.... Having said that I doubt if the King and Queen are really bothered per se, its just that they have been criticized and feel that they have to make some gesture or they will look bad....
Travel agencies reported cancellations... or decided to cancel all reservations themselves! So people do change their plans because of the much stricter regulations that came into place on Wednesday. Other hotels / holiday homes (especially those in the coastal zone) report more bookings as people heeded the government's strong advise not to go abroad but remain in the Netherlands (and limit outings).
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  #30  
Old 10-17-2020, 08:43 AM
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Originally Posted by Lee-Z View Post
https://translate.google.com/transla...aar-media.html

royalty expert from dutch media nu.nl (would rank this is a mainstream media outlet, not overly royalist or republican) agrees with several posters here that the king doesn't apologize but points to the media (like when they were spotted without a facial mask close to ther people a while ago).

imo this is basically what it looks like:
"it is therefore surprising to Evers that apparently no one has warned the king about the negative image that may arise.*"It seems that no one is allowed to say anything about the holiday of the House of Orange and that it is sacred. He has three wise adolescent daughters who could have been his best adviser in it: they see that their friends are not going on a holiday"

the current dutch king and queen don't often get critique, but this is one that regularly returns
I also was wondering whether one of the princesses didn't raise this issue at home. You would hope they are a little more in touch with the real world (although many of their classmates come from relatively affluent homes who might have made similar decisions) - but on the other hand, many teenagers don't bother too much. Or, maybe it was discussed, but the king and queen still decided to go ahead; as they would be quite 'safe' in their own home in Greece.

Quote:
Originally Posted by kathia_sophia View Post
Since the King and Queen have a private jet and own a villa in Greece, they never book things in advance, they just decide to go and that's it. That's the real problem. They probably decided to go right when the government changed the rules recently.
I would sincerely hope they don't consider/treat the government plane as their private jet although it looks like they do...

They might have thought that going to Greece was the 'safe' option compared to going to an unknown place in these times - but in doing so, showed to be very out of touch with the Dutch population in general. And as others, including the media, pointed out, it's not the first time their holidays get them into trouble. It seems to be their main source of creating discontent among the population (the other would be their income/finances imho).
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  #31  
Old 10-17-2020, 08:57 AM
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Originally Posted by Somebody View Post
I would sincerely hope they don't consider/treat the government plane as their private jet although it looks like they do...
It certainly does right? Even the PM didn't know they were going to Greece. I thought Monarchs had to "cooperate" with PMs, not in a political sense, but in a general sense of discussing what is happening in the country. I though WA had to inform the PM of their activities, including holidays.


Maybe WA and Maxima wanted a different approach to have more freedom? I don't know what are the agreements between the two parties, but it really does seem as if WA doesn't care about what the PM says. To me, and maybe to others, it seems WA wants to live the life he wants without having anybody tell him something. This gives a bad image, as it seems he "abuses" of his power as Monarch.
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  #32  
Old 10-17-2020, 09:09 AM
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Originally Posted by kathia_sophia View Post
It certainly does right? Even the PM didn't know they were going to Greece. I thought Monarchs had to "cooperate" with PMs, not in a political sense, but in a general sense of discussing what is happening in the country. I though WA had to inform the PM of their activities, including holidays.


Maybe WA and Maxima wanted a different approach to have more freedom? I don't know what are the agreements between the two parties, but it really does seem as if WA doesn't care about what the PM says. To me, and maybe to others, it seems WA wants to live the life he wants without having anybody tell him something. This gives a bad image, as it seems he "abuses" of his power as Monarch.
According to the Rijksvoorlichtingsdienst, PM Rutte *did* know about this trip...
https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.nos.nl/artikel/2352625-koning-breekt-vakantie-naar-griekenland-af-na-ophef-rutte-wist-van-reis.html

The King (and his wife/family) start to come across as spoiled at times.
They have an example to set, it's about the image it gives. Have W-A and Máxima ever apologized, without pointing to/blaming the media? Quite an easy cop-out, he could have known this beforehand and the label "private" doesn't mean he can do anything he wants without consequences.
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  #33  
Old 10-17-2020, 09:41 AM
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Originally Posted by kathia_sophia View Post
It certainly does right? Even the PM didn't know they were going to Greece. I thought Monarchs had to "cooperate" with PMs, not in a political sense, but in a general sense of discussing what is happening in the country. I though WA had to inform the PM of their activities, including holidays.


Maybe WA and Maxima wanted a different approach to have more freedom? I don't know what are the agreements between the two parties, but it really does seem as if WA doesn't care about what the PM says. To me, and maybe to others, it seems WA wants to live the life he wants without having anybody tell him something. This gives a bad image, as it seems he "abuses" of his power as Monarch.
It was the vice-prime minister that did the weekly press conference on Friday. He didn't know but apparently the prime minister himself did know. Based on what happened, the press concludes that the pm must have underestimated the situation as well because otherwise he should at least have informed his vice-pm who is his main partner (as minister of Public Health) in the Covid-19 approach.

Representatives of various parties are asking why the pm did not prevent this from happening. And the press is currently speculating how the decision to return was made: was it kind of forced upon the king and queen or did they themselves somewhat see the light. Their press release doesn't show much self-reflection, so I wouldn't be surprised if it was the pm who strongly advised them to return asap to reduce the damage. So far, he hasn't said anything.
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  #34  
Old 10-17-2020, 09:52 AM
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May I be honest? I don't see anything bad in the trip itself. As long as they'd kept it safe down in Greece, and they have the ressources to do so, I'd say "go ahead". The thing is - due to the lack of spending opportunities the rich and wealthy have seen an increase of their wealth. At the same time tourist spots, like Greece, have taken a huge economic beating. So, while I do agree, that basically sitting on each other's laps in a huge hotel is definitely not a good idea, I do think that those, who have the means to at least support the tourism a little bit (or even more in their case) should continue to do so as long as the neccessary precautions can be made and noone is endangered. It may only be a droplet in the Ocean, but at least it would be that. Noone is helped with the rich and wealthy sitting on their money and showing this strange "solidarity", while spending the money might be much more helpful.

Then again, I've never given much for "symbolism"...

best wishes Michiru
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  #35  
Old 10-17-2020, 09:56 AM
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Will they now be in quarantine for ten days?

If so they will have enough time to think about this...
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  #36  
Old 10-17-2020, 10:07 AM
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I don't understand why the PM is getting criticised for this? I understand he could have advised them not to go but can he actually stop them? It feels a bit like passing the buck to me.

Michiru I can see your point to a degree, but then this is a King & Queen who's people have been told to try not to travel out the country for their holidays. So of course WA&Max can do as they please and have the resources to do more than their mere subjects....its how that looks to the ordinary people who don't have a million euro holiday home, government jet on standby and status to be able to help them get out of the restrictions that is the issue here. Can WA & Max get around the rules safely - yes. Should they - IMO no, not if they want people to feel they truly represent them and stand with them. The real issue is less that the King & Queen have a lifestyle that allows them to circumvent the rules but that doing so makes them look out of touch.

Nos reported:

Last night, after the king had made it clear that he would abort his holiday due to all the angry reactions, the Government Information Service (RVD) announced that the prime minister was aware of the royal holiday. The statement also stated that the prime minister always has ministerial responsibility. That is to say: even if it concerns a private trip of the head of state.

The RVD does not want to say anything about how the decision to return came about and who was involved in it. It is only said that the royal couple is shocked by all the violent reactions.


Well the RVD is making it worse IMO, making it clear the King & Queen see no reason they should have to do what their own subjects have been told to do.


https://nos.nl/artikel/2352692-kamer...ooralsnog.html
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  #37  
Old 10-17-2020, 10:17 AM
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Originally Posted by Lee-Z View Post
most ordinary people already realized that holidays away from home would be in jeopardy and haven't booked like they would normally do

that said, i hardly think that applies to king and queen, their holiday to greece is hardly a package holiday deal that they can't get out of
Obviously not but Im sure they didn't want to cancel their holiday and felt it was Ok and they could fall back on the idea that other people were going on holidays.... I doubt if they're very worried what the people think, unless it becomes very negative.
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  #38  
Old 10-17-2020, 10:23 AM
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Originally Posted by Somebody View Post
Travel agencies reported cancellations... or decided to cancel all reservations themselves! So people do change their plans because of the much stricter regulations that came into place on Wednesday. Other hotels / holiday homes (especially those in the coastal zone) report more bookings as people heeded the government's strong advise not to go abroad but remain in the Netherlands (and limit outings).
Obviously some people would cancel.. others, if it was permitted still, would go ahead, if it was legal to do so. Depends on whether they'd get refunds, or whether they heard in time. in the UK, when travel was permitted, some people went away and then were told that Spain or somewhere was a country they had to quarantine when they came home.. and were caught out. Rules change fast adn it isn't always possible or easy to cancel or change arrangments.. If it is just "strong advice" rather than a legal requirement, Im sure a lot of people went ahead with thier holdiays...
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  #39  
Old 10-17-2020, 10:25 AM
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I don't understand why the PM is getting criticised for this? I understand he could have advised them not to go but can he actually stop them? It feels a bit like passing the buck to me.

Michiru I can see your point to a degree, but then this is a King & Queen who's people have been told to try not to travel out the country for their holidays. So of course WA&Max can do as they please and have the resources to do more than their mere subjects....its how that looks to the ordinary people who don't have a million euro holiday home, government jet on standby and status to be able to help them get out of the restrictions that is the issue here. Can WA & Max get around the rules safely - yes. Should they - IMO no, not if they want people to feel they truly represent them and stand with them. The real issue is less that the King & Queen have a lifestyle that allows them to circumvent the rules but that doing so makes them look out of touch.

Nos reported:

Last night, after the king had made it clear that he would abort his holiday due to all the angry reactions, the Government Information Service (RVD) announced that the prime minister was aware of the royal holiday. The statement also stated that the prime minister always has ministerial responsibility. That is to say: even if it concerns a private trip of the head of state.

The RVD does not want to say anything about how the decision to return came about and who was involved in it. It is only said that the royal couple is shocked by all the violent reactions.


Well the RVD is making it worse IMO, making it clear the King & Queen see no reason they should have to do what their own subjects have been told to do.


https://nos.nl/artikel/2352692-kamer...ooralsnog.html
"Shocked" implies that they had no idea that this could happen... And this is not the first time he/they have done something dumb.

And it's true - the PM has ministerial responsibility. That's why he gets the flak for the King (and Queen).
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  #40  
Old 10-17-2020, 11:23 AM
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Originally Posted by Skippy View Post
"Shocked" implies that they had no idea that this could happen... And this is not the first time he/they have done something dumb.

And it's true - the PM has ministerial responsibility. That's why he gets the flak for the King (and Queen).
And that explains why they didn't apologize, because they think they didn't do anything wrong...at least, in their eyes.


It makes me think if they are really "living" in the current times. Don't they see the news? Perhaps they never got "close" enough to the virus to feel scared or threatened (having someone they know die because of the virus, or having a family member infected with the virus).


They are probably one of those people that don't take this virus seriously since they live in their own bubble. I do like them a lot, but sometimes, these attitudes give me the wrong vibes (including the masks time, and also that time in Seville where WA pushed an elderly man away from his path).
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