Willem-Alexander, Máxima and Family, General News 4: Sep 2020- Aug 2023

[Lee-Z]

From nu.nl "why prime minister Rutte gets criticized as well, when the king does something controversial"
https://translate.google.com/transla...treden-is.html

[Denville]

Originally Posted by Skippy

Duc_et_Pair: do you feel personally addressed that you defend the king so severely?
Technically you may be right in that he did nothing wrong, but the king's position and subsequent example stretch further than that. And *that* is what people notice and fall over.

I think what the Duc is saying is that Beatrix was the one who was far more controversial nad willful. And I've seen other royals defended on the grounds that "they didn't do anything illegal".... and that "just" bad behaviour wasn't grounds for severe criticism or getting rid of htem...

[SLV]

I think that while not necessarily wise, it has been very much been exagerated. It is not as if the RF would be going to a crouded, public resort. No, they would have gone to their private home, secluded and well protected.
It is good that they returned home, but people are making more out of this that there is.
Princess Margriet and her husband are currently/or were in Austria skiing just this/last week. Mr Van Vollenhove posted a holidaypicture on twitter. There were comments there, of course. But the mainstream media haven't even caught up on that one.

[Lee-Z]

imo this is all just about "do you subscribe to the idea of leading-by-example".

P.Margriet and her husband have no "leading role" in society, the king and queen have imo, and yes, i do believe in the concept

if you want a metaphore: if a boss in a company tells his employees they should work until 17:00 and he is the one leaving at 16:30, you bet there will be comments (that there are employees who possibly also sneak away at 16:30 is annoying, but as a coworker not something you can change).
if the partner of that boss, who works in another company leaves at 16:00, maybe some will grumble about that, but in the end it's not relevant, different company, different rules..

what annoys me the most is that king and queen point to the media, more bothered that they have been noticed doing in what they see as their private time, than that they are bothered about the covid measures
(and no P.Beatrix would not have been more straightforward in this, the mediacode and the private dealings of the RF already existed in her reign)

[Duc_et_Pair]

Originally Posted by HereditaryPrincess

WA and Maxima really aren't doing any favours with this situation and it's making me rethink my judgement on their characters. I thought they were fairly down to earth and approachable but this whole debacle is making them look the opposite.

What is the verdict of regular Dutch people on this subject? It would be interesting to know their opinions.

The Dutch have butter on their head, to use a saying. Exactly this weekend, a lovely weekend which was the start of the autumn break, millions and millions of Dutch ignored the urged advice (no lock down! ) to keep movements as minimal as possible. Out they went, to inner cities, to national parks, to beaches.

Today on my office the 24 hours trip was discussed. Clumsiness of the first category but also the realisation that this could happen to all of us. Colleagues have left for Portugal, Germany, France, to have their break.

The earlier example of the royal couple spontaneously posing with a restaurant owner, holding their masks in their hand and no sufficient distance was a media outcry. But actually everyone did realise it is all too human. It is very difficult to be on qui vive all the time and an error is soon made.

It is already fading away. The double Dutch victory in the Ronde van Vlaanderen is today's news. The less-than-24-hours-break-in-Greece is today's filling for the cat's litter box. Exactly the realisation that this was a gaffe and the immediate return of the family has put down the fire, so to say. They are human too.

Originally Posted by Dalriada

I don’t think princess Beatrix would have made these tragic mistakes. Beatrix would have put the monarchy above her family’s fun anytime. The villa, the yacht, the arrogance.

A very famous quote, which haunts Princess Beatrix for the rest of her life, against a reporter in Greece (there is Greece again...) Princess Beatrix said she "enormously enjoyed that trip, because I felt that I was among my own people and could be myself"

That was during an Almanach de Gotha-studded cruise. This remark caused a similar media frenzy, like WA's unlucky departure for Greece last Friday. In no any biography or article about Beatrix any journalist will omiss this quote as this would be "proof" of the arrogance characterizing her character, and her preference to be with poshy folk.

[Marengo]

Ah, I see we are now taking 'the average' Dutch person as a measure for how the king and queen should be living. By that logic maybe we should force them out of his palaces and into a Vinex woning in the suburbs. Instead of his villa in Greece perhaps he should consider taking a package deal Sunweb vacation to some resort in Chersonissos or Benidorm. The average income is 36.000 Euros a year, and not tax free, so maybe the three princesses could work as a cassière in a supermarket as other average girls their age. Comparing the royal family and esp. the king and queen with average people is -as you can see- ludicrous.

The whole point of his position is that he is not average. He is the head of state. He has been born and lives in great privilege, all maintained by the Dutch taxpayer. As head of state he can be expected to lead, or at the very least listen to the advice of his own government. A government of which he himself is a member.

You are right, people will move on soon enough if they haven't already. However what will stay is the damage to his image. He has been criticized for his jetset lifestyle in the past. He has been criticized for being too eager on all the perks. And this episode just confirms exactly the preconceptions that rightly or wrongly existed. His efforts since 2013 to turn himself into the national teddy bear certainly will face some credibility issues on the short run.

Other than that his lack of antenna for him and his advisors does not bode well for the future. The monarchy is strong enough to weather some storms and certainly a relative trifle as this is but would do well to take some lessons from his Belgian and Spanish counterparts who are/ need to be more considerate to the sensitivities in their countries.

[Duc_et_Pair]

Originally Posted by Marengo

Ah, I see we are now taking 'the average' Dutch person as a measure for how the king and queen should be living. By that logic maybe we should force them out of his palaces and into a Vinex woning in the suburbs. Instead of his villa in Greece perhaps he should consider taking a package deal Sunweb vacation to some resort in Chersonissos or Benidorm. The average income is 36.000 Euros a year, and not tax free, so maybe the three princesses could work as a cassière in a supermarket as other average girls their age. Comparing the royal family and esp. the king and queen with average people is -as you can see- ludicrous.

The whole point of his position is that he is not average. He is the head of state. He has been born and lives in great privilege, all maintained by the Dutch taxpayer. As head of state he can be expected to lead, or at the very least listen to the advice of his own government. A government of which he himself is a member.

You are right, people will move on soon enough if they haven't already. However what will stay is the damage to his image. He has been criticized for his jetset lifestyle in the past. He has been criticized for being too eager on all the perks. And this episode just confirms exactly the preconceptions that rightly or wrongly existed. His efforts since 2013 to turn himself into the national teddy bear certainly will face some credibility issues on the short run.

Other than that his lack of antenna for him and his advisors does not bode well for the future. The monarchy is strong enough to weather some storms and certainly a relative trifle as this is but would do well to take some lessons from his Belgian and Spanish counterparts who are/ need to be more considerate to the sensitivities in their countries.

More considerate to the sensitivities in their countries? Juan Carlos de Borbón? Albert de Saxe-Cobourg?

Let us say, the namesakes Felipe and Philippe have to be utmost "considerate" because their monarchies are the most endangered of all.

There was little attention to it on this board, but when Don Felipe visited Barcelona last week, gigantic riots broke out and the police had to do all they could to ensure a safe entrance for the royal colonne.

In Belgium the two separatist republican parties together score alltime high. The new Government consisting of parties which all were losers at the last General Elections and which is led by the leader of the seventh (!) largest fraction in the Chamber is fuelling real anger and frustration.

This less-than-24-hours-in-Greece-and-back vaudeville is clumsiness in optima forma. But it is what it is: clumsy, not attentive to changes, to be in automatic mode. The article in De Volkskrant made it plausible: on Monday the King and the Prime Minister met in their weekly audience. Also the coming break to Greece was discussed. On Tuesday a sharper recommedantion was given. And it simply escaped the King, the Prime Minister and the whole apparate which travels to Greece (Kabinet van de Koning, the State Information Service, courtiers) what this would mean for the planned and approved break scheduled for Friday. That is all.

Under Beatrix it was willful (Waldheim, Haider, Qaboos) under WA it is most likely just the automatic mode: "Autumn Break, Greece, as always". Beatrix showed her royal derrière to criticism. Willem-Alexander realised his gaffe and immediately returned. Lesson learned. Next time better.

[Marengo]

I fear that I don't follow you as I am unsure what Barcelona, King Albert, Kurt Waldheim, King Juan Carlos or the Flemish nationalist/neo-fascist movements have to do with our king being in Greece.

Your point was that normal Dutch people also ignore government advice. My point - and that of many others in this thread- was that he is not a normal person but the King and more is expected from him for that reason. You have not addressed that point.

[tommy100]

Originally Posted by Marengo

Ah, I see we are now taking 'the average' Dutch person as a measure for how the king and queen should be living. By that logic maybe we should force them out of his palaces and into a Vinex woning in the suburbs. Instead of his villa in Greece perhaps he should consider taking a package deal Sunweb vacation to some resort in Chersonissos or Benidorm. The average income is 36.000 Euros a year, and not tax free, so maybe the three princesses could work as a cassière in a supermarket as other average girls their age. Comparing the royal family and esp. the king and queen with average people is -as you can see- ludicrous.

The whole point of his position is that he is not average. He is the head of state. He has been born and lives in great privilege, all maintained by the Dutch taxpayer. As head of state he can be expected to lead, or at the very least listen to the advice of his own government. A government of which he himself is a member.

You are right, people will move on soon enough if they haven't already. However what will stay is the damage to his image. He has been criticized for his jetset lifestyle in the past. He has been criticized for being too eager on all the perks. And this episode just confirms exactly the preconceptions that rightly or wrongly existed. His efforts since 2013 to turn himself into the national teddy bear certainly will face some credibility issues on the short run.

Other than that his lack of antenna for him and his advisors does not bode well for the future. The monarchy is strong enough to weather some storms and certainly a relative trifle as this is but would do well to take some lessons from his Belgian and Spanish counterparts who are/ need to be more considerate to the sensitivities in their countries.

I agree with you 100% Marengo!

In itself this is a storm in a teacup, they returned quickly and would have been safe of course in their own secluded villa. What is highlights though is any of the following (some of which is just by thoughts and ramblings):

a) their seeming willingness for the PM to have to face the music for their mistakes. Yes Rutt should have banned it but he is running a government in a pandemic, the Royal House only has to worry about the King, Queen and their family. Is this a fair working relationship to hide so openly behind the PM. The days of statements having to be made to parliament are over what with social media and the like.

b) they don't seem to feel they need to set an example to the Dutch people, yes they have access to a private plane and luxury villa so can travel safely in a way others can not but really in many people's eyes they should be setting an example for everybody no matter how rich or privileged or not.

c)they and their PR people didn't see this coming and were only reactive to a huge fuss made online and in the media i.e. they were only reactive to events. the age old adage of "The best defense is a good offense" would come to mind. The Royal House could have announced something like "following the Government's advice for people to stay at home as much as possible the King and Queen will not travel to Greece as planned" and got good PR and set an example to the Dutch people rather than now facing bad PR

d)For all the blame being thrown at the Prime Minister it calls into question the judgement of the King, Queen and their staff. Why didn't they see this coming, are they so out of touch with everyday Netherlands they thought there wouldn't be a fuss about the King & Queen swanning off thanks to the privileges provided, even indirectly, by their position and status. Or did they just not care and think they could weather it? Maybe due to seemingly being so popular normally

e)Did their staff, even the PM possibly, see this coming and question it, if so how come it still went ahead? Are the King and Queen forceful in pushing their own wants and desires they would overlook good advice for the working of the crown/monarchy if it means not doing what they want personally? If so that could be a problem ahead

[ricarda]

Originally Posted by cdm

One of Maxima’s first public Dutch sentences is applicable to this situation: Hij was een beetje dom.
In this case ‘zij’ also.

That was a PR trick to downplay the letter incident. WA was never "a little bit stupid", he was and probably always will be VERY stupid.

[Duc_et_Pair]

Originally Posted by Marengo

I fear that I don't follow you as I am unsure what Barcelona, King Albert, Kurt Waldheim, King Juan Carlos or the Flemish nationalist/neo-fascist movements have to do with our king being in Greece.

Your point was that normal Dutch people also ignore government advice. My point - and that of many others in this thread- was that he is not a normal person but the King and more is expected from him for that reason. You have not addressed that point.

I would like to quote then member of Parliament, later Mayor of The Hague, Mr Jozias van Aartsen, during a debate about the royals: "My ladies and gentlemen: we are discussing the royal family, not the Holy Family".

It was just clumsiness, non attentive, being on automatic mode. This happens. They swiftly realized the wrong signal, immediately returned. Lesson learned. Ready.

Trump adheres injecting chloride in your veins. Bolsonaro denied the Amazon is pillaged and burned by his conmen. Putin poisons his enemies. And Willem-Alexander? Gosh... what was perfectly okay on Monday was not so okay anymore on Tuesday. Ow. The shame! Hang him high! Look at you, acting like the knitting women on the front row watching the fine fleur of France being guillotined.

Originally Posted by ricarda

That was a PR trick to downplay the letter incident. WA was never "a little bit stupid", he was and probably always will be VERY stupid.

PR trick or not. He could have been stubborn and stay in Greece. My royal derrière to you. That is what his "perfect" mom did. Let the rage just rage. "My gentlemen, the lie rules" were Beatrix' famous words (perfectioned by Trump's "there are alternative facts" and "that's fake news!".)

WA made a swift decision and with this the angle was out of the incident. In comparison this unlucky vaudeville was just a wet fart in an empty egg. Pffwwttt, next news-of-the-day. The always so perfectly mask-wearing, distancing, handwashing and oh so servitudely authority-obeying Dutch (absolutely not, the Dutch are probably the most individualist and strongwilled people) pointing to a wrong assessment by the King? Spare me the bloody irony!

Originally Posted by Duc_et_Pair

PR trick or not. He could have been stubborn and stay in Greece. My royal derrière to you. That is what his "perfect" mom did. Let the rage just rage. "My gentlemen, the lie rules" were Beatrix' famous words (perfectioned by Trump's "there are alternative facts" and "that's fake news!".)

WA made a swift decision and with this the angle was out of the incident. In comparison this unlucky vaudeville was just a wet fart in an empty egg. Pffwwttt, next news-of-the-day. The always so perfectly mask-wearing, distancing, handwashing and oh so servitudely authority-obeying Dutch (absolutely not, the Dutch are probably the most individualist and strongwilled people) pointing to a wrong assessment by the King? Spare me the bloody irony!

Originally Posted by tommy100

I agree with you 100% Marengo!

In itself this is a storm in a teacup, they returned quickly and would have been safe of course in their own secluded villa. What is highlights though is any of the following (some of which is just by thoughts and ramblings):

a) their seeming willingness for the PM to have to face the music for their mistakes. Yes Rutt should have banned it but he is running a government in a pandemic, the Royal House only has to worry about the King, Queen and their family. Is this a fair working relationship to hide so openly behind the PM. The days of statements having to be made to parliament are over what with social media and the like.

b) they don't seem to feel they need to set an example to the Dutch people, yes they have access to a private plane and luxury villa so can travel safely in a way others can not but really in many people's eyes they should be setting an example for everybody no matter how rich or privileged or not.

c)they and their PR people didn't see this coming and were only reactive to a huge fuss made online and in the media i.e. they were only reactive to events. the age old adage of "The best defense is a good offense" would come to mind. The Royal House could have announced something like "following the Government's advice for people to stay at home as much as possible the King and Queen will not travel to Greece as planned" and got good PR and set an example to the Dutch people rather than now facing bad PR

d)For all the blame being thrown at the Prime Minister it calls into question the judgement of the King, Queen and their staff. Why didn't they see this coming, are they so out of touch with everyday Netherlands they thought there wouldn't be a fuss about the King & Queen swanning off thanks to the privileges provided, even indirectly, by their position and status. Or did they just not care and think they could weather it? Maybe due to seemingly being so popular normally

e)Did their staff, even the PM possibly, see this coming and question it, if so how come it still went ahead? Are the King and Queen forceful in pushing their own wants and desires they would overlook good advice for the working of the crown/monarchy if it means not doing what they want personally? If so that could be a problem ahead

The King can not go out and about, nor can the Prime Minister. The Constitution says that the King is inviolable, the ministers are responsible.

Asked to Mr Rutte if we will ever know what is discussed between King and Prime Minister, he replied: "I hope not. It is an essential cornerstone in our Constitution where the Crown speaks with one voice" . For exactly the same reason the minutes of the weekly Council of Ministers are not public: there needs to be discussion, free opinions, strong differences inside the Government but as it is a college, when they leave the stately Trêves Chamber, it is the Government speaking with one voice.

When the King would say: I went to Greece against the advice of the Prime Minister. Then there is a debate about that.

When the Prime Minister would say: I had no objection against the King to travel to Greece, then there is a debate about that.

So the mantra since 1848 is: nothing what has been discussed between the King and the ministers is public. Exactly to have the King to execute his role as head of state and member of Government, this "Secret of Noordeinde" is a dogma.

So it is not that the King likes to have Rutte to catch the criticism. I think he is the person to pick up the phone in a reflex and call into a TV show. Wisely he knows this is exactly what he can NOT do because anything the head of state says comes on the plate of the Prime Minister.

Most likely to his own frustration (and known frustration of his predecessors) but this is exactly how it works. Do Not Move While You Are Shaved.

[Prinsara]

Duc, while you are here, have the members of the DRF ever apologized for anything personal before? A comparison might be helpful.

[Somebody]

Originally Posted by Prinsara

Duc, while you are here, have the members of the DRF ever apologized for anything personal before? A comparison might be helpful.

According to some, Máxima was more willing to acknowledge the wrongs of her father than Willem-Alexander. He seems slightly more stubborn than Máxima, and therefore probably less likely to apologize.

I looked back to the controversy around the villa in Mozambique. At that time they also referenced 'the publicity and debate' which went against their intentions as reason to sell their villa but no apologies were offered.

Originally Posted by Duc_et_Pair

This less-than-24-hours-in-Greece-and-back vaudeville is clumsiness in optima forma. But it is what it is: clumsy, not attentive to changes, to be in automatic mode. The article in De Volkskrant made it plausible: on Monday the King and the Prime Minister met in their weekly audience. Also the coming break to Greece was discussed. On Tuesday a sharper recommedantion was given. And it simply escaped the King, the Prime Minister and the whole apparate which travels to Greece (Kabinet van de Koning, the State Information Service, courtiers) what this would mean for the planned and approved break scheduled for Friday. That is all.

The prime minister spent most of Sunday discussing the measures they were going to take/announced on Tuesday. They most likely had several options on the table and made some initial decisions (that still could change but in general they knew where they were heading: towards much stricter regulations); and the media already reported the jest of it. On Monday, they received the advice of the Outbreak Management Team - which helped solidify the exact measures that were to be announced on Tuesday. Again, the media had a rather accurate understanding of what going to be announced on Tuesday, it was only about deciding final details.

So, this story line of on Monday they talked and on Tuesday the situation was suddenly completely different doesn't make sense to me at all. I would hope the king and pm also discussed on Monday what the government intended to announce on Tuesday, so the king would know what would be asked of the Dutch population. It was the main topic the pm had been discussing and would continue to discuss with the various ministers and advisors for days...

[Prinsara]

Originally Posted by Somebody

According to some, Máxima was more willing to acknowledge the wrongs of her father than Willem-Alexander. He seems slightly more stubborn than Máxima, and therefore probably less likely to apologize.

I looked back to the controversy around the villa in Mozambique. At that time they also referenced 'the publicity and debate' which went against their intentions as reason to sell their villa but no apologies were offered.

And Beatrix/Juliana? Is there any historical basis for apologizing? (I won't even ask about Wilhelmina... possibly a source of the stubbornness though.)

[Somebody]

Originally Posted by Prinsara

And Beatrix/Juliana? Is there any historical basis for apologizing? (I won't even ask about Wilhelmina... possibly a source of the stubbornness though.)

For Beatrix: unlikely. Juliana: could very well be but would depend on the topic. Juliana and Beatrix did manage to ensure that husband/father Bernhard was not formally prosecuted during one of the two most severe crises (Lockheed; the other would be Greet Hofmans) in Juliana's reign. This short biography (in Dutch but I'm sure Google Translate will help) gives a great insight in her character.

[Prinsara]

Originally Posted by Somebody

For Beatrix: unlikely. Juliana: could very well be but would depend on the topic. Juliana and Beatrix did manage to ensure that husband/father Bernhard was not formally prosecuted during one of the two most severe crises (Lockheed; the other would be Greet Hofmans) in Juliana's reign. This short biography (in Dutch but I'm sure Google Translate will help) gives a great insight in her character.

It does. Almost certainly Juliana would not have gone to Greece in these times. I don't gather many people have been influenced by her, neither her daughter nor her grandson, but perhaps that's some of the "powerless sense" the article referenced.

So if there is no historical precedent and no precedent by the people involved, perhaps no apology should be expected? It may be a relatively minor situation, but I'm not sure that it bodes well for the king. Someday he will likely have to apologize for something worse than this, and having no practice can't possibly help when the time comes.

[Marengo]

According to the RVD princess Amalia and princess Alexia were still in Greece as there were not enough tickets available for the fight(s) back. They have returned today.

https://www.rtlboulevard.nl/royalty/...nland-gebleven

[Prinsara]

Originally Posted by Marengo

According to the RVD princess Amalia and princess Alexia are still in Greece as there were not enough tickets available for the fight back.

Nice place to be stuck, I suppose?

It was a "fight" back, indeed...

[Somebody]

Originally Posted by Prinsara

Nice place to be stuck, I suppose?

It was a "fight" back, indeed...

I guess the princesses (not sure why RTL used the diminuitive for 15 and 16 year oldes) didn't mind staying a few more days indeed.

[carlota]

strange that they didn't consider how this would be seen/interpreted.

i didn't know about maxima's 'Hij was een beetje dom' - in which context did she say it during her engagement interview? as to the courtship?