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  #141  
Old 10-31-2020, 11:10 AM
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So, yes, it is definitely an offer she can refuse: she is not expected to be in the military as her professional career choice;
We'll see... Royalty means very much too, to be an exceptional citizen in a lot of regards, a role model. And since this "letter" is a new approach, wouldn't it be a thing to wish for, that the Cown Princess leads by example?
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  #142  
Old 10-31-2020, 11:51 AM
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Originally Posted by victor1319 View Post
We'll see... Royalty means very much too, to be an exceptional citizen in a lot of regards, a role model. And since this "letter" is a new approach, wouldn't it be a thing to wish for, that the Cown Princess leads by example?
No, this is not a new approach at all. This letter is not a call to military service at all; on the contrary, it tells them that military service is no longer expected (while it was in the past): the Netherlands prefers a smaller and more efficient professional army instead. The letter has been send for about 25 years now telling all men they are NOT expected to turn up for service. Now it is also telling the women they are NOT expected to turn up for service.

If the Netherlands would some day find itself at war and all these young men and women are unexpectedly called to service, in that case your argument that she should lead by example might take hold but currently, this letter is seen as a formality informing young people that they have to do nothing. So, leading by example and being an exceptional citizen, in this case would mean to do nothing and hope that the situation in which all these men and women are called up under the arms will never arise.
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  #143  
Old 10-31-2020, 01:28 PM
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No, this is not a new approach at all. This letter is not a call to military service at all; on the contrary, ....Now it is also telling the women they are NOT expected to turn up for service.
That is, what I meant: Girls get the letter now too!

And imagine, girl No. 1, the Crown Princess, is not leading by example!
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  #144  
Old 10-31-2020, 01:38 PM
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So basically she'll lead by example by *not* going into the military as everyone who gets the letter is supposed to not do so either

She could do 'Social Service' though, or maybe already does or did, that's not uncommon these days..
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  #145  
Old 10-31-2020, 02:19 PM
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The problem is a bit that the King enrolled into conscription (military service). But conscription has ended in 1997. Since then the Armed Forces (Army, Navy, Air Force and Marechaussee) are fully professional.

So when the Princess of Orange enrolls at the Royal Military Academy (in her dynasty's oldest ancestral venue in the Netherlands, the Nassau Castle in Breda), she has chosen for a professional military career.

But she can do alike the Duchess of Brabant, who has enrolled for one year of social and military science (so not the full four years). Under the current Belgian Constitution the King (formally) holds the supreme command of the Armed Forces.

That is the difference with the Netherlands where the Government ( = King and ministers) holds the supreme command over the Armed Forces. Unlike in Belgium the Dutch King himself is part of Goverrnent. And no active military are allowed to sit in Government, which intrinsically rules out the King to be Commander in Chief.
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  #146  
Old 10-31-2020, 02:56 PM
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Originally Posted by victor1319 View Post
We'll see... Royalty means very much too, to be an exceptional citizen in a lot of regards, a role model. And since this "letter" is a new approach, wouldn't it be a thing to wish for, that the Cown Princess leads by example?
But it wouldnt be leading by example. And leading decades too late as this is not a new program.

It would actually do the opposite. The Netherlands had been promoting their 'professional army'. Having soldiers who want to be in the military, who want a career in the armed services. Not the idea 'we need as many soldiers as possible so we will drill the only way to serve your country is to serve in the army' rhetoric some countries put out.

Catharina Amalia will never have a career in the military. Her future is as Queen. That is her career. She would in fact be setting a poor example.

There are other ways for her to show a good example of her service to her people. Through community work and involvement.
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  #147  
Old 10-31-2020, 03:05 PM
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Originally Posted by victor1319 View Post
That is, what I meant: Girls get the letter now too!

And imagine, girl No. 1, the Crown Princess, is not leading by example!
How would she be leading by example by doing exactly the opposite of what she is supposed to do?

Let's assume everyone is told not to attend a certain event (except for those strictly necessary) due to Covid-19 but wait until it is safe again to do so. Would it be leading by example to turn up nonetheless insisting that it is important to lead by example by showing up because some people are needed?

FYI: the professional army has been available as a career option for girls for several decades but it isn't the ultimate career but one of many valuable career options. Is Amalia supposed to also be a doctor and a nurse (very much valued), a judge (one of the high offices), a cashier (an essential worker), a cleaner (I think we all know how important their job is), a teacher (what can be more important than teaching the new generation), etc., because she is to lead by example? Or does that only apply to the military; and if so, why?
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  #148  
Old 10-31-2020, 03:32 PM
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Originally Posted by Countessmeout View Post
She would in fact be setting a poor example.
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How would she be leading by example by doing exactly the opposite of what she is supposed to do?

Let's assume everyone is told not to attend a certain event (except for those strictly necessary) due to Covid-19 but wait until it is safe again to do so. Would it be leading by example to turn up nonetheless insisting that it is important to lead by example by showing up because some people are needed?
Thus, if the Princess of Orange were to voluntarily enroll for military service, it would not only be unappreciated by the public, it would be perceived as poor behavior which puts others in danger, just as with flouting Covid-19 guidelines? Could you explain why that is?
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  #149  
Old 10-31-2020, 03:44 PM
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Thus, if the Princess of Orange were to voluntarily enroll for military service, it would not only be unappreciated by the public, it would be perceived as poor behavior which puts others in danger, just as with flouting Covid-19 guidelines? Could you explain why that is?
I dont recall ever comparing it to Covid or suggesting it would be dangerous to other lives

What I said is it doesnt set a good example.

The Dutch military policy: We want professional soldiers. Join the army if you want a career.

Catharina-Amalia joining: I just want to join for a year or two to be a 'poster girl' for other women. And then I will quit to follow my real career.


It costs the military money and time and resources to train soldiers. They are making it very clear they wish to spend that money on career soldiers who will use the time and money invested in them, for the future of the Dutch army. If CA has no intention at a career, even some years before queen, in the military there is no need for her to waste the money and resources on her training.

Elisabeth, William/George, Leonor are different as they will one day be commander in chief.

If she actually has an infinity for being a soldier, and wants to actively serve for a few decades before she is queen, that would be another matter. But yes, joining just for the sake of 'a royal example' is not setting a good example.
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  #150  
Old 10-31-2020, 04:04 PM
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My post quoted both your comment and Somebody's, and the latter included the Covid-19 comparison.

But thank you for explaining your rationale.
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  #151  
Old 10-31-2020, 06:58 PM
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Philippe, Felipe, Elizabeth, they are Commander in Chief in name only.

During WWI and WWII neither George V nor George VI ever had decisive authority on the strategy and the policy set out by the military command. Neither the slaughterhouses in Flanders Fields (WWI) or the failure of Operation Market Garden (WWII) could have been prevented by the King as he was and is supposed to keep himself away from military decision making.

The same counts for Belgium and Spain. Leopold III had zero comma zero command over the Belgian forces despite being the commander in chief. And in Spain, with all these separatist regional tendencies, it would be suicide for the monarchy to wield real command.

So it is all very symbolically. Having said that, I would love it to see Catharina-Amalia joining the Armed Forces for a gap year. And as a keen horserider she can maybe combine it with serving in one of the cavalry regiments which still deploy mounted detachments.
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  #152  
Old 10-31-2020, 06:59 PM
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Originally Posted by victor1319 View Post
All dutch 17s get this letter, this "invitation" to the armed service.

But as a Crown Princess you ain't an ordinary teenager, but a role model, a super influencer.

It makes me wonder, if the Crown Princess has any realistic chance to turn down this offer...

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Interesting, but I guess you can opt out if the military isn't your thing, as I know a few Dutch people who haven't done any service? I would presume it's different for Amalia however, unless she could do some other kind of service to the Netherlands if she really didn't want to do the military work. I know some idols in South Korea (where service is compulsory for men) are exempt because they are already serving the country in a popular culture sense.
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  #153  
Old 10-31-2020, 08:32 PM
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Originally Posted by Tatiana Maria View Post
Thus, if the Princess of Orange were to voluntarily enroll for military service, it would not only be unappreciated by the public, it would be perceived as poor behavior which puts others in danger, just as with flouting Covid-19 guidelines? Could you explain why that is?
No, that is not what I was trying to convey. I was only trying to convey the idea that doing the opposite of what is told is not leading by example. As there are few comparable situations, I tried to come up with something that also had the 'delay' aspect in it; that's all.

This specific letter tells people that they are no longer expected to report for compulsory military service. So, if the princess of Orange in response to this letter writes backing telling them that she would want to be conscripted, that would in no way be 'leading by example'.

If, completely unrelated to this letter, at some point she decides to take up military training, I guess it would very much depend on what her true intentions are. I don't think a year at a military academy that is supposed to train the professional future officers of the army would be valued that much as it is clear she is NOT intending to have a military career (if her intention is to serve in the military for over 10 years that would be different). However, if she would sign up to be a 'reservist' that would be slightly different, although, again, in that case she truly should be willing to serve as a reservist and not just do it for the experience. If after her university studies, she decides to do the part-time master Military Strategy, that would clearly be part of her preparation as queen, so I don't think anyone would think that problematic. Imho, that would be the preferable option if some experience with the military is deemed necessary for her future role (which so far it was not!).

See also Countessmeout, she explained it much better than I did.
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  #154  
Old 10-31-2020, 08:37 PM
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Originally Posted by HereditaryPrincess View Post
Interesting, but I guess you can opt out if the military isn't your thing, as I know a few Dutch people who haven't done any service? I would presume it's different for Amalia however, unless she could do some other kind of service to the Netherlands if she really didn't want to do the military work. I know some idols in South Korea (where service is compulsory for men) are exempt because they are already serving the country in a popular culture sense.
Please check the various responses. It is in no way an invitation to join the army; it is rather a non-invitation. There is a lot of confusion with people interpreting this letter as if it is saying exactly the opposite of what it truly is communicating.

This letter is telling Amalia and all others born in 2003 that she is NOT expected to take up military service but if the need would arise in the future (i.e., the Netherlands would be at war and all people are needed to defend the country) might still be called upon. The Netherlands has a professional army and is no longer interested in 18 year olds doing a short stint at the army as a conscript; so that is no longer an option.
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  #155  
Old 10-31-2020, 09:05 PM
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No, that is not what I was trying to convey. I was only trying to convey the idea that doing the opposite of what is told is not leading by example. As there are few comparable situations, I tried to come up with something that also had the 'delay' aspect in it; that's all.

This specific letter tells people that they are no longer expected to report for compulsory military service. So, if the princess of Orange in response to this letter writes backing telling them that she would want to be conscripted, that would in no way be 'leading by example'.
I understand your first point, but if the letter merely stated that the recipient is not compelled to report for military service, then it would not be telling the recipient what (not) to do. The comparable situation would be a letter telling the recipient their attendance at large gatherings is no longer compulsory (as opposed to a mandate that avoiding large gatherings is compulsory). Only if the letter instructed the recipient to avoid volunteering for military service would volunteering for military service be doing the opposite of what is told.

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I don't think a year at a military academy that is supposed to train the professional future officers of the army would be valued that much as it is clear she is NOT intending to have a military career (if her intention is to serve in the military for over 10 years that would be different). [...] See also Countessmeout, she explained it much better than I did.
I see, thanks. Then, if I understand correctly, the official policy is that citizens who are uninterested in a lengthy military career are now discouraged from enrolling for shorter stints in order not to divert resources from professional soldiers?
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  #156  
Old 11-01-2020, 02:34 AM
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I find the Dutch way interesting.

Sending a letter out to all who reach military age, saying: "You are eligible for military service, should there be a general mobilization."

In DK you are called up for a session and medical examination weeding out those who are obviously unfit for service or only fit for limited service, or who are conscientious objectors.
Those who volunteer for conscription (around 95 % of all conscripts are volunteers) are almost guaranteed to be stationed where they wish to and they go through basic training before being send home. Weeding out the last who are unfit for duty.
It's basically one big recruiting drive for joining the professionals.

DK has retained conscription in order to maintain a close affiliation between civilians and the military, so that no military caste develops parallel to the rest of the society.
But mainly to expose enough motivated young people to military life in the hope of enough of them choosing a military career to fill the gaps in the regulars.
And last, but by no means least, there is a certain status in having been a conscript. - Also if it's in the Civil Defense.

- And there is an option. I assume the Netherlands have a Civil Defense/FEMA unit. Could she join them?
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  #157  
Old 11-01-2020, 04:49 AM
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In the past there was a Burgerwacht (civilian watch). A civilian army, consisting on men not drafted for conscription.
My dad was in it in the 70's/80's, both his elder brothers had been called up for their year long conscription, so he was not called up. Also he was at uni, and students were generally excepted from conscription untill after their education ended.
Burgerwacht was a farce though, from what I gathered from my father.
They learned to to wear gasmasks, but he and several other had big beards, so the masks were useless. They were advised to shave off their beards in case of a gas attack. Yeah, as if you have time to do so.
All masks and other materials were stored in the center of Amsterdam. When they asked the officials if that was a smart place, because any attack would be focussed on the citycenter, they were not answered.
Risk of trying to train university-educated men. They question everything and think for themselves.
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  #158  
Old 11-01-2020, 05:19 AM
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Originally Posted by Duc_et_Pair View Post

Like any retired officer, the King can wear uniforms. Special insignia have been made, comprising an orb, a sword and a sceptre. See picture, not the insignia of a general, or insignia of an admiral, but the exclusive insignia of The King: https://i.pinimg.com/originals/cf/48...9051686e7c.jpg

But why does he not wear this special Uniform for Events like Prinsjesdag. Because he then actasas Partof the Government`?
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  #159  
Old 11-01-2020, 05:22 AM
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If you think too much, you die.

Anyway, examples of such folly can be found in every country.

During the Cold War in DK, there was a standing order to bell ringers, to ring the bells at the churches after a nuclear attack, to warn the public against radioactive fallout - In case there were some who hadn't noticed the radio broadcasts, the blinding flashes and the funny mushroom clouds presumably...

There was just a little problem:
Many bell ringers would likely have been called up anyway.
Most of those who hadn't been called up, would be sitting in a shelter with absolutely no intention of going outside!
Or be dead or dying.
Or be on the run with their families.

When I was in the Home Guard the girls were issued antiquated submachine guns, and ordered to fire single shots only, lest they fall apart.
The field radios we had, were just that. When they worked, their range hardly extended beyond shouting range.

As for gasmasks, we had ours at home. And people with beards soon learned to trim that after having been in the C-chamber full of teargas.

Many things were taken seriously enough though. The sites where the mass graves would be dug had long since been selected - ensuring least possible pollution of the groundwater.
We were supposed to set up a perimeter around the city of Aarhus along with the Civil Defense, and triage those who came out . We wouldn't go inside the perimeter to try and dig people out, that was hopeless.
And we didn't need a university degree to figure out that most of us, even with NBC suits, would die within weeks.

- But back to Dutch Civil Defense. With no conscription presumably that's an all volunteer force today?
Could she do a stint there?
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  #160  
Old 11-01-2020, 06:59 AM
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Originally Posted by Stefan View Post
But why does he not wear this special Uniform for Events like Prinsjesdag. Because he then actasas Partof the Government`?
To emphasize He is above all parties and that includes the military,he is Head of State and he doesn t have to pin that down by wearing an uniform.
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