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  #561  
Old 06-30-2019, 06:24 PM
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Originally Posted by janelarn View Post
804/5000
Oh my God. This statement is terrible, because removing the political past from his father does not do Máxima any favor, but quite the opposite. In the end he may look more like the father, minister of a dictatorship, than we thought.
Try to help see it as a great policy and die laughing. If she wanted to be a politician, she could have stayed in Argentina and see if another dictatorship would come, but not marry to be queen and relegate her husband to "zero".
The monarchy and politics, especially the consorts, have to be separated by a very broad line, and Máxima has passed all possible limits already.
This is the problem when a person is from a republic and has no idea of the operation of monarchies, but the worst are those of the country that consent.
Queen Máxima did nothing wrong. She has not gone one millimetre beyond any constitutional line. Even more, the criticism was what she did NOT say against the Crown Prince, not what she said against him.

But the Dutch Prime Minister was clear: that was not Máxima's position to say anything about Khashoggi. The Netherlands have condemned this abhorrent murder and this is exactly well known by the Saudis.

In your way of thinking Queen Máxima in one room with Putin: horror! MH17, Skripal, Ukraine! Queen Máxima in one room with Xi Ping: horror! Hong Kong, Huawei, Tibet! Queen Máxima in one room with Erdogan: horror! Coup d'État, suffocating democracy, strangling journalists. Queen Máxima in one room with Abe: horror! Commercial whaling!

Máxima wants to play a meaningful role. And she does that. The Dutch give her all space to exploit her talents. The Dutch simply are not the type for a monarchy made of sugarcake fondant, falling in faint because of a little royal burp. The Oranges have always been active. The famous Bilderberg conferences are even started by Prince Bernhard and this year the King mingled there with the high and the mighty. Just as the Oranges always have done for 1000 years.
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  #562  
Old 07-01-2019, 01:00 AM
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Originally Posted by Duc_et_Pair View Post
When the Argentineans were to take over the presidency of the G20, Queen Máxima met President Macri, the leader of the Argentinean delegation.

When the Japanese were to take over the presidency of the G20, Queen Máxima met Prime Minister Abe, the leader of the Japanese delegation.

Now the Saudis are taking over the presidency of the G20, Queen Máxima met the Crown Prince, the leader of the Saudi delegation.

No more, no less.
On which capacity? And what is your say about Callamard slamming her for meeting the Crown Prince?
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  #563  
Old 07-01-2019, 02:06 AM
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Originally Posted by theroyalfly View Post
On which capacity? And what is your say about Callamard slamming her for meeting the Crown Prince?

In this capacity (with lots of pictures): https://www.unsgsa.org/


Madame Agnès Callamard was just taking the opportunity to highlight once again her report, frustrated as she is that -despite her painstaking work- the Crown Prince simply is with the Merkels, the Trumps, the Putins, the Xi Pings of our time. I would have done the same, if I was her.

Sadly Madame Callamard did hit the wrong note. Naming Queen Máxima a "complicit to the murder of Khashoggi" blew up any understanding, that was so overdone, bordering the absurd. Without hesistation Prime Minister Rutte could shrug his shoulders off: Madame Callamard had already detonated herself by her wild words.
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  #564  
Old 07-01-2019, 03:22 AM
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There is a barrage of articles, columns, radio discussions etc. dedicated to the issue. Some are wondering if the Crown Prince spoke to Máxima the Dutch queen, or Máxima the UN envoy. The Dutch government claims the latter.

The defence of the Prime Minister is that Máxima did not represent the Netherlands but was there as a UN special envoy. The explanation is of course nonsense, as Máxima is queen 24 hours of the day and almost no normal UN envoys will be invited to a G20, let alone have meetings on the highest level. Being Queen gives her access to such a network of people, which she uses to maximise the attention for the noble cause of micro finance. Note that according to the Saudi's the meeting was about the 'cooperation of the two Kingdoms'.

The Dutch government is responsible for what the Queen says and does 24 hours of the day. There is no time-sharing arrangement with the United Nations where on certain hours of the day secretary Guterres is responsible for what his special envoy says and does. Being king or queen is not a part-time job. Well-intentioned external projects should not damage the monarchy.

Political journalists seem to agree that the meeting was a massive blunder - even the right-wing Telegraaf explicitly names it such. F.e. Frits Wester is questioning why neither the RVD nor the civil service have prevented this meeting but also wonders what has happened to the political antenna of the royal family. The NOS (state broadcaster) also concludes that the political antenna of the RF seems not to be adjusted well. Others wonder if the responsible ministers were sleeping when this meeting was set up. Bas Heijne claims that the Saudi Crown Prince uses 'bling bling feminists' like Máxima to make his regime more palatable to the West, while these women play along in his game.

It is the second time the political climate was severely misjudged by Máxima. The first time was when she made her remarks about the Dutch Identity. PM Lubbers claimed later that that blunder showed that Máxima 'was not ready' and needed a few more years to prepare for her function as Queen.

There was some criticism when Máxima 'accidentally' posed for a photo with the wife of president Bouterse of Suriname at a UN-meeting a few years ago. The Netherlands has a rather difficult relationship with the president of the former colony, who is responsible for the December murders of 1982. That this official meeting with the killer crown prince would create a barrage criticism could have been foreseen.

I understand that cutting ribbons day in day out can be frustrating. And I understand that it is good for the Queen and other members of the RF to have something meaningful to do. Some freedom should be given to these members of the family. But it can not be the case that an external role will damage the functioning of the monarchy. It is clear that the monarchy is held to a higher standard than ordinary politicians, diplomats etc. That is why I doubt that f.e. the IOC-function will ever be repeated for Amalia (it became too sensitive with all the corruption that is going on). Clearly arranging this public meeting was a lack of good judgement. The Queen's external function should not put her in the middle of a political mine field.

BTW I do not think for one minute that this will change the popularity of the Queen for one iota. She has enough credit with most of the population to be forgiven a blunder. The prime minister and minister Blok should have known better. At least they are defending the queen 100%, which is good as this incident is their responsibility first and foremost.
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  #565  
Old 07-01-2019, 04:53 AM
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But the queens, princesses and princes consorts do not just dedicate themselves to cutting ribbons. The reality is that no consort will change the world, but everyone within the limits of their roles find ways to help some things change and support causes.

Máxima works with inclusive finance... for years Queen Sofia and Grand Duchess Maria Theresa supported the cause of microcredits, they supported Yunus and gave more visibility to his projects and they made others support the cause. They contributed to that a position like the one that Máxima occupies today was seen as necessary.

As it happened to Rania, the problem is to think that to be useful and help people, you have to break the boundaries of the role of royalty and become a famous become an activist. Supporting a cause is one thing ... wanting to be part of the political, economic elite ... of the world of millionaires and celebrities is another. And royalty is not a mandate for a few years, nor is working for a private company ... you have to respond to a country... and in the end that forces you to put the line somewhere.

One last thing, I believe that in their own way, within their circumstances and their countries, many women of royalty work for women's empowerment.

The Spanish President, socialist, who supports the feminist cause ... was at the G20 conference. But the last great movement of support for women in Spain has not emerged from governments or millionaire investments ... it has emerged from society, from a change of generational mentality, from girls who wanted to practice certain sports... and suddenly the female sport is on the rise and the government, the Royal House, the great teams of La Liga, the sponsors, the press ... have turned to it.

Sometimes "cutting a ribbon", depending on what that ribbon implies, can also have important repercussions.
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  #566  
Old 07-01-2019, 05:37 AM
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Originally Posted by lula View Post

Sometimes "cutting a ribbon", depending on what that ribbon implies, can also have important repercussions.
That is exactly what the king said in his interview in 2013, so you are in good company .

Still the drive to get more 'meaningful' work for members of the RF has been present for decades. It mainly comes from a wish from these members themselves as they perhaps feel caged in. Prince Claus once sarcastically referred to cutting ribbons as being his 'core business'.

In the seventies he was attached to the ministery of Development Aid. After a nasty campaign from the largest newspaper of the country who had issues with a royal serving under a socialist minister in such a left-wing topic the prince was forced to quit. Some thought the lack of something 'meaningful' to do caused his depression. Something which is eldest son denied in 2013 (he claims that WWII experiences formed the base of the depression).

When the crown prince finished his studies the family asked for a bit more freedom and trust for him to develop himself in some areas of interest which was given and which he never betrayed. The same goes for Princess Margriet in her role for the international Red Cross, or even Prof. van Vollenhoven for the National Safety Board. Earlier on Prince Bernhard of course was given far too much freedom in his role as Economic ambassador, which led to the Lockheed Affair. One could even argue that Prince Hendrik's work for the National Red Cross -he died in front of his desk in his office of the Red Cross headquarters in The Hague- and Crown Princess Juliana's work for the National Crisis Committee (to alleviate the worst plight of people during the economic crisis of the 1930s) put such functions in a longer tradition.

I agree that content can be found in lots of local activities and not neccissarily in a fancy role on the international stage. But sometimes when I see the Queen showing interest in the umpteenth local handicraft tradition or the king show interest in the umpteenth visit to a dairy cattle farm I do admire their enthusiasm.
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  #567  
Old 07-01-2019, 06:58 AM
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In the end Queen Máxima was again with the top of the world, as she is year in, year out. Her network is formidable. While leaders come and go (Hollande went, Macron came, Obama went, Trump came, etc.) she has been and remains in that society for many years. Any UN agency can only dream about a representative with such free access to the most exlusive world stage.

And let us be fair: Máxima had a conversation with the Saudi Crown Prince because he organizes the next G20 Summit. So the murder on Khashoggi was no any problem for the G20-countries to have it held in Saudi Arabia, next year. THAT is the real "scandal".

But yet anyone stumbles over a meeting of the UNSGAD representative in the marge of the G20? Let me laugh. And indeed: most likely Máxima's popularity will rock even more sky high because the gut feeling of the common Dutchies is that she is unfairly treated. After all May was there, Merkel was there, Rutte was there. No problemo. Máxima was there "uh oh problem!". The Dutch x-ray effortlessly through that sheer hypocrysy.
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  #568  
Old 07-01-2019, 07:24 AM
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Up to a point you are right. In the very same weekend Minister Kaag met with the leader of Iran - hardly an oasis of human rights. The prime minister met with Putin, while the Russians have murdered so many of our people. The difference is that they are politicians and it is their job to have these meetings. Another difference is that they will at some point raise -or claim to have raised- human rights issues, as was the case with the PM, Putin and the open wound of the MH17.

For the Queen it is not her job to be present at the G20. Her external activities for the UN are not necessary for her function as queen. The Queen will be in no position to open conversation about sensitive issues such as human right violations. as she did not do during her meeting with the Crown Prince.

She can not be Queen at one hour and envoy Máxima van Oranje the next. The then Prince and Princess of Orange themselves recognized in an interview in the 2000s that being royal was something that they were 24/7. As lula pointed out plenty of royals partner with UN causes without being added to these kind of politically sensitive international functions.

In this case her external work -or 'bezigheidstherapie' (activity therapy) as I saw it referred to- is damaging her function as Queen. The royal family - as the highest representatives of the Dutch state- is simply held to a higher standard than ordinary politicians and diplomats. As a reminder: there is no other Western royal that I know of has met with the Saudi crown prince after he had Mr. Khashoggi cut in pieces by a chain saw. The Duke of York spoke about business ties with Saudi Arabia in Dubai in 2018, but he did not meet with the CP.
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  #569  
Old 07-01-2019, 07:32 AM
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Marengo, is that they are members of a Royal Family and their role is not to be a politician or work for other organizations. Sometimes it is perhaps more an ego problem.

In many European royal houses their members collaborate with UN agencies, they work with them and are their ambassadors. Royal houses, governments and international agencies collaborate to work together... they always go hand in hand with the interests of the country. And it is an exchange, sometimes the members of royalty support projects of their country, and others the interest of a royalty on a subject makes this a project of the country.

The idea that the Royal House and the government consider that Maxima is temporarily Queen, and temporarily sent from the UN ... that uses state resources, but that later are independent things ... is a little crazy.
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  #570  
Old 07-01-2019, 10:13 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lula
is a little crazy
Agreed. The explanation is rather insufficient.

I do not think the Queen's ego -be it small or large- plays a factor in her going to the G20. Neither the Prime minister's office nor Foreign Affairs would have patience for that. The two must have decided that the Queen's presence at the G20 is an asset for some reason or another, otherwise there would be zero chance that the Queen would be going along, no matter how much she theoretically would have pushed for it (which I very much doubt).

In Argentina it was clear why: the Queen is a personal friend of president Macri and his wife. At this meeting I suspect the additional reason why she attended might also be largely unrelated to micro finance, but this picture may be closer to the reason why FA wanted her there. They have been trying to commit the American president for some time now to visit our country in the autumn. The Queen's working relationship with the president's daughter will have given her access to the president; on another photo you could see Ivanka Trump introducing the president and the queen.

We will see if the Queen will be present at the G20 in Saudi Arabia. I would be rather surprised if she were after all the controversy.

---
Cartoon from the Volkskrant, the Saudi Crown Prince washing his hands in Royal Máxima detergent:
https://www.volkskrant.nl/columns-op.../#&gid=1&pid=1
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  #571  
Old 07-01-2019, 10:48 AM
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Ivanka was also recently in the Netherlands and she was invited by the King and Queen to a private visit to the Palace... I would not be surprised if Ivanka was happy to have the attention of a member of royalty.

The Netherlands is not a member of the G20, putting Máxima into the G20 for empowering women probably has also been a way for the Prime Minister to be invited more often.

The United Kingdom is a member of the G20, and I do not believe that a woman of the Royal Family accepted the invitation. Spain is a permanent guest, and although Letizia was invited by the Government of Argentina, she did not attend, because the representative in the G20 is the President of the Government.
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  #572  
Old 07-02-2019, 02:09 AM
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Originally Posted by lula View Post
Ivanka was also recently in the Netherlands and she was invited by the King and Queen to a private visit to the Palace... I would not be surprised if Ivanka was happy to have the attention of a member of royalty.

The Netherlands is not a member of the G20, putting Máxima into the G20 for empowering women probably has also been a way for the Prime Minister to be invited more often.

The United Kingdom is a member of the G20, and I do not believe that a woman of the Royal Family accepted the invitation. Spain is a permanent guest, and although Letizia was invited by the Government of Argentina, she did not attend, because the representative in the G20 is the President of the Government.
But Máxima was there as the UN Secretary-General's Special Advocate for Inclusive Finance for Development (UNSGSA). By my knowledge no member of the British and Spanish royal families have a similar position so indeed they had no business to do at the G20.

By the way, in yesterday's interpellation debate all parties from the left to the right stressed their admiration for the excellent work of the Queen to empower women, to give them access to financial services, etc.

The Government stressed that every step Queen Máxima did in Osaka, including her non-intervention in the case Khashoggi, was completely in line with the Goverment's position and strategy: it was neither the duty of the UNSGAD nor the duty of the Queen of Netherlands to speak about the case Khashoggi.

All parties agreed with that, but their position was that maybe the Queen should have been shielded away from the Saudi Crown Prince (but remarkably no word about Putin, Xi Ping, Erdogan en the whole rambam).
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  #573  
Old 07-02-2019, 03:27 AM
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If Máxima was there only as a special UN envoy ... why does she appear in the official photo of the dinner? Why does not Ivanka appear as an adviser to the President of the United States?

The photo was for the leaders and their partners, and the representatives that there were of the UN, were the Secretary General of the UN and the directors of agencies as WHO ... a special envoy is a minor charge, if it is not because she is queen of the Netherlands, she would not have been there.

Máxima uses both conditions ... as a UN envoy to justify being present in political events that as queen consort do not correspond to her ... as Queen to have a privileged position in the protocol that as a simple UN envoy would never have. Moreover, she appears as Rutte's partner, while the UN Secretary General, the director of the International Monetary Fund or the director of the World Bank appear in the back row ... so the UN envoy is located one row ahead of her "boss".

United Kingdom is a member of the G20, Spain is a permanent guest ... if they thought it appropriate, any member of their Royal Families could be introduced as an envoy for any cause in representation of their countries. Their situation would be the same as Máxima's as a UN envoy.
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  #574  
Old 07-02-2019, 05:25 AM
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If Máxima was there only as a special UN envoy ... why does she appear in the official photo of the dinner? Why does not Ivanka appear as an adviser to the President of the United States?

The photo was for the leaders and their partners, and the representatives that there were of the UN, were the Secretary General of the UN and the directors of agencies as WHO ... a special envoy is a minor charge, if it is not because she is queen of the Netherlands, she would not have been there.

Máxima uses both conditions ... as a UN envoy to justify being present in political events that as queen consort do not correspond to her ... as Queen to have a privileged position in the protocol that as a simple UN envoy would never have. Moreover, she appears as Rutte's partner, while the UN Secretary General, the director of the International Monetary Fund or the director of the World Bank appear in the back row ... so the UN envoy is located one row ahead of her "boss".

United Kingdom is a member of the G20, Spain is a permanent guest ... if they thought it appropriate, any member of their Royal Families could be introduced as an envoy for any cause in representation of their countries. Their situation would be the same as Máxima's as a UN envoy.

It is exactly her position which works as a highway to the high and mighty, thankfully exploited by the UNSGAD. You are correct: no any "normal" representative from the UN would have such a privileged position, but that is exactly the rationale for appointing (then) Princess Máxima into that position.

Note that the criticism was not about what the Queen did or say. The criticism was that she did not do or say. That is all.
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  #575  
Old 07-02-2019, 02:25 PM
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As a reminder: there is no other Western royal that I know of has met with the Saudi crown prince after he had Mr. Khashoggi cut in pieces by a chain saw. The Duke of York spoke about business ties with Saudi Arabia in Dubai in 2018, but he did not meet with the CP.

Juan Carlos of Spain did last November and was critizised for it.
https://www.thelocal.es/20181126/kin...i-crown-prince

The critizism of Maxima regarding not confronting MBS about the murder is ridiculous, did anyone of the present politicians do such thing?
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  #576  
Old 07-02-2019, 03:11 PM
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Originally Posted by Duke of Marmalade View Post
Juan Carlos of Spain did last November and was critizised for it.
https://www.thelocal.es/20181126/kin...i-crown-prince

The critizism of Maxima regarding not confronting MBS about the murder is ridiculous, did anyone of the present politicians do such thing?
Yes, Juan Carlos was very criticized ... although the circumstances were totally different. The meeting was casual and in a private event ... they just shook hands in the VIP area of the Grand Prix of Formula 1 of Abu Dhabi.
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  #577  
Old 07-02-2019, 03:14 PM
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I also found the photo of the Queen with a known murderer rather surprising.

I understand what you say Duc: in international politics you are bound to have to deal with people with dirty hands, including dictators and murderers. But I see no reason why we have to drag the queen down into the filth with these kind of people.

I suppose she must have met with the CP to convince him of the impact of micro finance. I can imagine a normal UN envoy meeting the Crown Prince. But HM is not a normal diplomat. She is not a politician. She is the Queen of The Netherlands. The Queen of The Netherlands should not be photographed cosying up to & thus legitimizing murderers and dictators.

This meeting was very ill advised done with complete disregard for HM role as our Queen. As her work for the UN is now hampering her most important role perhaps it is time to drop the UN function.
Apparently, the SA media also presented this meeting differently: the crown prince of SA meeting the queen of the Netherlands to strengthen the ties between the royal families...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Duc_et_Pair View Post


Yes the Prime Minister allows it. Even more: he was with the Queen in Osaka.

Recently there was a survey and the overwhelming response was that Queen Máxima must be able to be involved in the causes of her heart, which are inclusive finances and equal chances for women, all over the world.

In general the Dutch prefer to see their royals have meanig in the real world as much as possible. After all the monarchy operates in the reality, not in a sugarcake Disneyland.

The costs made for the Queen in her role as ambassador are paid for by the UN. But as she remains Queen of course, the Dutch Government pays for the addidtional costs the UN would not have had to make, was it not a royal member, so to say.

That mainly means the personal security and the use of the worldwide Dutch diplomatic infrastructure (read: the local Embassy provide all services the Queen needs). These costs are covered by the regular budgets of the diplomatic service. In a country where there are annual Budget Surpluses, these costs barely cause a stir in the sea of plenty, which is the State Budget.

https://www.koninklijkhuis.nl/onderw...lusive-finance

Third engagement with the Crown Prince, after a bilateral and a diner:
https://discover.operacdn.com/assets...de3ecf45b64392

With Donald and Ivanka Trump : https://twitter.com/iina_surbakti/st...42147947900929
I'd like to highlight the above. While I do think that the queen might be reigned in now, in general I'd say the Dutch are pleased with such a competent queen who really makes a difference in the world and was not just asked for an ambassador role to be a 'face'. Also the king's brother and sisteres-in-law fulfill high profile positions (Mabel with Girls not Brides, Constantijn previously with the EU, now focusing on entreperneurship, and Laurentien previously focusing on illitteracy and now on children's role in sustainable development). So, there is quite some leeway in taking a stand and doing something meaningful within the Dutch royal family - most likely because of Pieter van Vollenhoven who worked hard to be able to do what he ended up doing regarding independent investigations into safety incidents.

Quote:
Originally Posted by lula View Post
United Kingdom is a member of the G20, Spain is a permanent guest ... if they thought it appropriate, any member of their Royal Families could be introduced as an envoy for any cause in representation of their countries. Their situation would be the same as Máxima's as a UN envoy.
I don't understand this part. Máxima is NOT representing the Netherlands, she is representing the SG of the UN. In fact, she even has an official role within the G20:
Quote:
Queen Máxima is Honorary Patron of the G20’s Global Partnership for Financial Inclusion (GPFI) and a Global Agenda Trustee for the World Economic Forum’s Global Challenge Initiative on the Future of the Global Financial System.
Source: UNSGSA

Which British or Spanish royal family member has been asked or do you expect to be asked by the Secretary General to be his special representative based on their professional credibility and competence to represent the UN's secretary general on the international stage? After that royal will have shown for 10 years to be an excellent special advocate they might consider inviting him/her as well to become an honorary patron of a subcommittee of the G20 and give a keynote...

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Originally Posted by lula View Post
Yes, Juan Carlos was very criticized ... although the circumstances were totally different. The meeting was casual and in a private event ... they just shook hands in the VIP area of the Grand Prix of Formula 1 of Abu Dhabi.
That's probably worse. Meeting with him in private.

Máxima 'had' to meet the chair of the G20's next meeting (that apparently nobody considered that problematic or it would have been moved to a different location) in her official role as honorary patron of the G20's GPIF.
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Old 07-02-2019, 04:17 PM
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The problem is that by meeting him at all, Maxima essentially made a mockery of whatever private or public protests the Dutch government has made to the SA government, while the CP scored big PR points with his own people. It was not a neutral act in a PR sense.
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  #579  
Old 07-02-2019, 04:30 PM
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The problem is that by meeting him at all, Maxima essentially made a mockery of whatever private or public protests the Dutch government has made to the SA government, while the CP scored big PR points with his own people. It was not a neutral act in a PR sense.
I fully agree it wasn't a smart move (!) but the main problem is the G20 being held in SA next time. If a statement had to be made, the best statement would be for all countries who agree with thd UN report to call for a boycot of the next meeting or so. It's a bit onesided that only queen Máxima is chastized for something she has the least influence over.
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  #580  
Old 07-02-2019, 04:43 PM
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Somebody, is that directly a member of the British Royal Family or the Spanish Royal Family (or probably any other European parliamentary monarchy), could not accept being an envoy by the Secretary General of the UN, because they do not accept executive positions in international organizations (only honorary), because they clash with the position they should occupy as members of the Royal Family.

Máxima was an economist, had university studies, she had a good job ... but she was not the best economist in the world ... there are many members of royalty with university education, with professional careers that could represent the UN in other sectors ... but it is not acceptable that they travel the world representing something that is not their own country.

On the subject of Salman is the opposite .... Máxima had organized a meeting with him, she met him because she wanted to meet him .... Juan Carlos met him by chance in a public place, and evidently it would have been a bad gesture to his hosts to be rude to another guest (whose father has been friends with Juan Carlos for decades).
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