King Willem-Alexander and the British Throne

[Maxie]

I was wondering just the same. This whole list makes me wonder, to be honest. Very interesting all this.

[Iain]

Originally Posted by Maxie

Most catholics live in the south and most of them are not that interested in the dutch royal family. I'm looked upon as some kind of rarity among my southern friends, to be honest.

All the Dutch Catholics I know are all ardent royalists and claim that Catholics were always more loyal to House of Orange than protestants.

I don't think Willem Alexander will lose much sleep over not being in line to the British throne. He will sit on a much better throne one day, God willing.

[Alexandria]

Originally Posted by Marengo

And what about little Anna, Lucas and Felicia? Were they baptised as catholics?

I believe that they were all baptised in a non-denominational ceremony.

Maurits and Marilene were also married by a non-demoninational minister.

[Xandra]

I suppose a Crown Prince has to be skipped for succession to the British throne. He can´t be king of Netherlands and England at the same time.

[Empress]

There is precedent in history for a person to hold both thrones. See William and Mary. So he could certainly be both.

And besides, there are current kings and queens on the list that already hold their own throne, so that would not make any sense.

Crown Prince Haakon, and Crown Princess Victoria are all on the list as well.

[Kelly]

Although for Willem to get the throne if he were on the list, it would take many years and many people would have to have died! I am sure that he would be happy just to see his darling Amalia on the list.

[Alison20]

I certainly disagree with Iain that no-one would mind in the UK if the monarch became Catholic. The Monarch represents and reflects the people of a country. England is about 80% Protestant. And in Scotland it depends on how you work things out. More Catholics attend church, but more people are nominally Protestant.

My view is that if its not broke - don't fix it! There are a lot of privileges with being Monarch - but there are also a lot of duties. And one of the duties is to maintain the country's traditions and keep within the law. In Britain that would include being Anglican, and marrying someone that was suitable and acceptable.

Interestingly, I believe that the reason for including marrying a Catholic as being a barrier to being King, rather than just the King being Catholic, was that Charles I was thought to be over influenced by his wife, a French Catholic Princess. She was also probably the influence behind her younger son, James VI and II, becoming a Catholic later in life. He started giving preference to Catholic friends and increased the influence of the Church in the country. People were prepared to settle for this for the time being because his two daughters from his first marriage were both Protestants and were the heirs to the throne. However, when his first wife died he married a Catholic Princess and they had a son (James, The Old Pretender, father of 'Bonnie Prince Charlie). A son would have preference over the 2 daughters to succeed to the throne.

Now seeing no end to the rule of Catholics and the changes this would produce across the country, James was removed from the throne. His elder daughter, Mary, was married to William of Orange (her cousin and next in line to the British throne through his mother), and the throne was offered to them jointly. This set off mini civil wars for over 55 years, and was also the reason that the Act of Settlement was brought in in 1701.

I think most people here are generally happy to leave things as they are, with that history to look back on!

[Iain]

Originally Posted by Alison20

I certainly disagree with Iain that no-one would mind in the UK if the monarch became Catholic. The Monarch represents and reflects the people of a country. England is about 80% Protestant. And in Scotland it depends on how you work things out. More Catholics attend church, but more people are nominally Protestant!

Alison, I wasn't talking about the U.K. What I said was that no-one in The Netherlands would mind if the monarch was Catholic. That would most certainly not be the case in the U.K.
Also, in Scotland the adult membership of the "big two" is, Church of Scotland: 607,000 and the Catholic Church: 814,000

[princess olga]

Originally Posted by Marengo

They were baptised in a protestant church, by a protestant minister, according to the traditions of the dutch reformed church. They are probably registered at the protestant reformed community of Wassenaar as well, ...so I doubt if anyone can consider them catholics.

Maxima and the Prince of Orange explicitely told the press that their children will be protestants, during the press conference that was given upon their engagement. According to the princes own words ´The House of Orange will remain protestant´. Maxima said that she would study the dutch reformed church, but left in the middle if she was open to a conversion.

Good points. I'd bet anyone thinking catholicism would by default be the dominant religion of Willem Alexander's girls, that them growing up as protestants would even be in the prenuptial agreement between WA and his spouse

[Henri M.]

It is possible that Princess Máxima of the Netherlands will become the second protestant Queen of the Netherlands. Her far predecessor Queen Anna Paulovna Romanovna of the Netherlands born Grand Duchess of Russia belonged to the Russian Orthodox Church.

During the pressconference after the announcement of their engagement, miss Zorreguieta anserwed: "I'm orientating myself on the protestantism". In an interview, broadcasted on January 18th 2002, miss Zorreguieta stated: "Becoming a protestant is no decision that you take from the one day to the other." She made clear that the most important part is she and the Prince do share the same standards and values, that they share the same christian feelings.

The Prince of Orange said: "The forms are different. The feeling is the same."

The fact that miss Zorreguieta was not willing to convert to protestantism, had a few consequences. The Bishop of Rotterdam (the diocese in which her residence, The Hague, is situated), Mgr. A. van Luyn s.d.b. gave an official dispensation to miss Zorreguieta. That means that the roman-catholic church officially allowed her to engage in a marriage which will not be solemnized according to roman-catholic rites.

The church-blessing of the royal wedding indeed was a protestant affair, with Ds. N. van der Linden as the officiating reverend minister. There were roman-catholic influences anyway. Father Rafael Braun, an Argentinean priest and a family-friend of the Zorreguietas did a part of the readings in the Holy Scripture and did a prayer (both in Spanish). The Kyrie from the Missa Solemnis (Wolfgang Amadeus Mozart) and the Ave Maria (Franz Schubert) were performed on the bride's request.

The Princess remained a faithful daughter to the Church of Rome.

Picture: Their Royal Highnesses The Prince of Orange and Princess Máxima of the Netherlands attend the Holy Mass at the Cathedral of the Saints Laurentius and Elizabeth in Rotterdam, February 2006.

Source picture: the Diocese of Rotterdam / uploaded via my own webspace

[GrandDuchess]

Thank you Henri, for your interesting insights on the topic.

So is the fact that Máxima remains a catholic not an issue in The Netherlands? If she remains with her denomination, and becomes Queen as a catholic, won't it sparkle any debate? I know it's a liberal country, but I'm just curious.

[Maxie]

I don't think people would really mind if she stayed catholic. The Netherlands have always been a very liberal country and I myself would find it quite narrowminded if people would expect Maxima to adopt another faith than the one she's raised in just because she's married to the heir to the throne who happens to be a protestant. I totally agree with prince Willem-Alexander when he says that the form of the two faiths is different, but the feeling the same. One should focus a bit more on the similarities between different faiths in stead of always looking for differences.

[Marengo]

Reverend C. ter Linden, who married the couple, said oin television saturday that the princess came to him in 2000 already (so even before the engagement) to get more insight in protestantism, as she was unaware of it.
(FYI the reverend also told that the Prince and 11 friends of his have founded a bible group, which comes together each month to discuss parts of the bible).

I wonder what happend if she does convert. Would the Prince of Orange get his ranking back int he british list?

[JessRulz]

Originally Posted by Marengo

....
I wonder what happend if she does convert. Would the Prince of Orange get his ranking back int he british list?

No, W-A wouldn't get his place back in the Line of Succession to the British Throne if Maxima converted. It was mentioned in the Line of Succession thread in the British part of the forum: once you are out, you can't get back in

[lucien]

I honestly do not think for a sec that Alexander is "worried or upset"about loosing his place in line of a british throne.It just isn't an issue to him,or any dutch for that matter,well,at least not to those I know.

The fact that Máxima,before her engagement,contacted/ran into Rev.Ter Linden(a long and dear friend of the RF) was merely to be informed about the protestant view/ideas since her hubby to be was/is of that denomination,never as a start to eventually convert herself.Just to broaden her view,which at itself is a good thing,broadening ones view.

[lys]

What a long list!! Is it really necessary?.
I wonder if other lines to the throne are such long.
Anyway, very very interesting subject.

[princess olga]

Originally Posted by Henri M.

During the pressconference after the announcement of their engagement, miss Zorreguieta anserwed: "I'm orientating myself on the protestantism". In an interview, broadcasted on January 18th 2002, miss Zorreguieta stated: "Becoming a protestant is no decision that you take from the one day to the other." She made clear that the most important part is she and the Prince do share the same standards and values, that they share the same christian feelings.

The Prince of Orange said: "The forms are different. The feeling is the same."

If that's the case, that the forms merely are different while the feeling is the same, why oh why couldn't Maxima do her new husband a favor and convert into the religion that has been the tradition not only, but one of the main reasons why the Oranjes are so committed to Protestantism: their patriarch, Willem van Oranje, made it a point as his nation struggled to gain independence from the claws of Spain, some centuries ago. Willem van Oranje's protestantism is one of THE turning points of not only the van Oranje family, but also the very notion of the Netherlands as a nation. For Maxima not to convert is almost to snub this historic nod if you will.

Sure sure, Maxima promised and did study protestantism, but if the feeling is the same but just the form different, then why the heck is she still a catholic?
Don't get me wrong, I was brought up a catholic myself, in the Neth. to boot, where to this day, there is a cultural and geographical difference between the areas of that country that are predominantly catholic and vice versa.
Maxima somehow always struck me as someone who puts up a great front but all the same is someone who wants to get her cake and eat it, too. She gave up her life as a commoner for her husband and supposedly for his and his country's sake, CONVERTED into a real princess, didn't she? And she didn't mind doing that, now did she. In my opinion, if she really respects the Van Oranje history and tradition, she'd already have converted to her husband's religion. For those who say, oh but that's a personal thing, I say, she is a public figure now who's purpose in life is to represent the Dutch throne, which traditionally is protestant. And if "the feelings are the same just the form is different", which was the excuse Alexander came up with to justify his marrying a Catholic, then converting to protestantism shouldn't be such a difficult thing to accomplish, in my opinion.

[lucien]

HRH Princess Máxima does respect the age old traditions of the Orange Nassaus,and their openness and tolerance toward other denominations.The RF is not half as frumpy in these matters then some of the posters on this forum.IR Princess Juliana & Princess Margriet
taking the Holy Communion during Maurits and Marilène's wedding.This is 2006 AD not BC.

[princess olga]

Originally Posted by lucien

HRH Princess Máxima does respect the age old traditions of the Orange Nassaus,and their openness and tolerance toward other denominations.The RF is not half as frumpy in these matters then some of the posters on this forum.IR Princess Juliana & Princess Margriet
taking the Holy Communion during Maurits and Marilène's wedding.This is 2006 AD not BC.

Agreed, but i.e. Margriet's kids won't exactly inherit the Dutch throne in all likelyhood, so they can do as they please more or less and no one cares. Maxima on the other hand, will inherit the throne because of her husband's role as CP. It is the tradition since Willem van Oranje that the Oranje family is Protestants.
Sure this is 2006, but the sheer concept of monarchy is more akin to BC than to AD 2006. Do you suggest abolishing other traditions surrounding the Dutch monarchy as well while we're at it? How about we get rid of the who le thing while we're at it?

I'm playing devil's advocate here as I think Beatrix is doing an excellent job as monarch, but I think that this holding on to catholicism of Maxima's if her dear life depended on it, just doesn't make any sense to me whatsoever, especially considering that in all other aspects, she makes it a point to let the world know she's drinking the royal koolaid hook, line and sinker.

The point is that traditionally, the Dutch throne is protestant. If we take traditions so lightly, why do we care about keeping the Dutch tradition of having a monarchy intact then, as well? I'm just saying that it would make sense if Maxima were consistent in this matter, that's all.

[crisiñaki]

Originally Posted by lys

What a long list!! Is it really necessary?.
I wonder if other lines to the throne are such long.
Anyway, very very interesting subject.

I think the Danish list would be even longer if it included every descendant