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  #61  
Old 11-20-2018, 02:57 AM
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Yes, Mevrouw van Amsberg is used in official communiqués:

https://zoek.officielebekendmakingen.nl/stb-2002-41.html


In the Benelux, the wife of a jonkheer is a mevrouw.
The daughter of a jonkheer however is a jonkvrouw.


In the French there is no real translation for the predicate jonkheer / jonkvrouw.

In official correspondence often is used: Messire (instead of Monsieur), Dame (instead of Madame) and Demoiselle (instead of Mademoiselle) to differentiate them.

A jonkheer / jonkvrouw belongs to the nobility without having a title.


Example: https://books.google.nl/books?id=OKu...udekem&f=false
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  #62  
Old 11-20-2018, 03:14 AM
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Thank you! But the decree linked above is referencing Máxima; is there any documentation of Beatrix, Margriet, or Christina using the names of their husbands?
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  #63  
Old 11-20-2018, 03:19 AM
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No, there is not and they never did.

Princess Irene did use her father's name at one point, preferring to be mevrouw Irene van Lippe-Biesterfield for her private pursuits. I have never seen her referred to as Princess of Bourbon-Parma (prior to her divorce).

As for the possible husbands and children of Alexia and Ariane: matters have changed over time for each generation. I suspect there husbands will not be created princes. As for their children: perhaps they can be counts of Orange-Nassau though considering the way they have tried to limit the royal house/family I would not be surprised if they received no title at all.
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  #64  
Old 11-20-2018, 04:06 AM
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Originally Posted by Marengo View Post
No, there is not and they never did.

Princess Irene did use her father's name at one point, preferring to be mevrouw Irene van Lippe-Biesterfield for her private pursuits. I have never seen her referred to as Princess of Bourbon-Parma (prior to her divorce).

As for the possible husbands and children of Alexia and Ariane: matters have changed over time for each generation. I suspect there husbands will not be created princes. As for their children: perhaps they can be counts of Orange-Nassau though considering the way they have tried to limit the royal house/family I would not be surprised if they received no title at all.
The partners of Princess Irene, Princess Margriet and Princess Christina of the Netherlands did not receive a Dutch noble title upon marriage.

The partners of Prince Friso and Prince Constantijn of the Netherlands did not receive a Dutch noble title upon marriage.

The partners of Prince Carlos and Prince Jaime de Bourbon de Parme did not receive a Dutch noble title upon marriage.

The partners of Prince Maurits, Prince Bernhard, Prince Pieter-Christiaan and Prince Floris van Oranje-Nassau, Van Vollenhoven did not receive a Dutch noble title upon marriage.

The partner of Bernardo Guillermo did not receive a Dutch noble title upon marriage.

With certainty we may say that there will be no (new) Dutch noble title either for the partners of Princess Alexia and Princess Ariane of the Netherlands.

This means that the countly family Van Oranje-Nassau van Amsberg solely depends on Count Claus-Casimir to procreate into a new generation. And this means that the family Van Vollenhoven remains non-noble with exception of the four sons of Princess Margriet with their personal, non-hereditary title.
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  #65  
Old 11-20-2018, 04:30 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Duc_et_Pair View Post
The partners of Princess Irene, Princess Margriet and Princess Christina of the Netherlands did not receive a Dutch noble title upon marriage.

The partners of Prince Friso and Prince Constantijn of the Netherlands did not receive a Dutch noble title upon marriage.

The partners of Prince Carlos and Prince Jaime de Bourbon de Parme did not receive a Dutch noble title upon marriage.

The partners of Prince Maurits, Prince Bernhard, Prince Pieter-Christiaan and Prince Floris van Oranje-Nassau, Van Vollenhoven did not receive a Dutch noble title upon marriage.

The partner of Bernardo Guillermo did not receive a Dutch noble title upon marriage.

With certainty we may say that there will be no (new) Dutch noble title either for the partners of Princess Alexia and Princess Ariane of the Netherlands.

This means that the countly family Van Oranje-Nassau van Amsberg solely depends on Count Claus-Casimir to procreate into a new generation. And this means that the family Van Vollenhoven remains non-noble with exception of the four sons of Princess Margriet with their personal, non-hereditary title.
The fact that Ariane’s and Alexia’s husbands won’t get titles doesn’t automatically rule out that their children will. Under Dutch law, they will be members of the Royal House as long as Willem-Alexander is king. And, under the Law on Nobility, as members of the Royal House, they can be ennobled by Royal decree. Under the Law on Membership of the Royal Family, as members of The Royal House, they can be also given the title of Prince/ Princess of Orange-Nassau if the King and the government decide to do it..

If the idea is “ to limit titles” though, creating them counts or countesses like Constatntijn’s children is a far worse solution IMHO than making them princes or princesses of Orange-Nassau like Margriet’s sons. because the title of count/ countess is hereditary in male line while Prince/ Princess of Orange-Nassau is a personal title only.
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  #66  
Old 11-20-2018, 04:49 AM
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They will certainly not return to making children in female line princes(s) while their own generation in male-line was given the lower title of count. The point was not necessarily reducing titles in general but reducing the number of princes and princesses.

So, I agree with Duc et Pair that most likely Alexia's husband won't be given a title. The only reason to do so is if they want to make her children count(esse)s. Although -I think- technically they don't need to make their father a count as they can include regulations regarding any titles in Alexia and groom's marriage law. Comparable to Constantijn's children who have a different title than their father.
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  #67  
Old 11-20-2018, 05:06 AM
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Originally Posted by Somebody View Post
They will certainly not return to making children in female line princes(s) while their own generation in male-line was given the lower title of count. The point was not necessarily reducing titles in general but reducing the number of princes and princesses.

So, I agree with Duc et Pair that most likely Alexia's husband won't be given a title. The only reason to do so is if they want to make her children count(esse)s. Although -I think- technically they don't need to make their father a count as they can include regulations regarding any titles in Alexia and groom's marriage law. Comparable to Constantijn's children who have a different title than their father.
My point was that the fathers don’t need to be made counts for the children to be counts or countesses. Claus-Casimir and his sisters were made count and countesses in their own right; they didn’t inherit the title from their father, who is not a count. himself.

And, again, as I said, under the Law on Nobility, any member of the Royal House, including Ariane’s and Alexia’s children as long as Willem-Alexander is king, can be ennobled by royal decree.
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  #68  
Old 11-20-2018, 06:11 AM
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Originally Posted by Mbruno View Post
My point was that the fathers don’t need to be made counts for the children to be counts or countesses. Claus-Casimir and his sisters were made count and countesses in their own right; they didn’t inherit the title from their father, who is not a count. himself.

And, again, as I said, under the Law on Nobility, any member of the Royal House, including Ariane’s and Alexia’s children as long as Willem-Alexander is king, can be ennobled by royal decree.

It is not possible anymore to ennoble the children of Countess Eloïse and Countess Eleonore because their consanguity to the Sovereign is more than two degrees:


0 - King Willem-Alexander
1 - Princess Beatrix
2 - Prince Constantijn
-----------------------------
3 - the children of Prince Constantijn



It is indeed possible to ennoble the children of Princess Alexia and Princess Ariane as long as their father is King:

0 - King Willem-Alexander
1 - Princess Alexia
1 - Princess Ariane
2 - the children of Princess Alexia
2 - the children of Princess Ariane




Under Queen Catharina-Amalia, her children's sisters will become too remote for the membership of the Royal House, she can not ennoble them anymore.

0 - Queen Catharina-Amalia
1 - Prince Willem-Alexander
2 - Princess Alexia
2 - Princess Ariane
-------------------------
3 - the children of Princess Alexia
3 - the children of Princess Ariane
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