Criticism on Máxima's Remarks about the Dutch Identity: September 2007

[Marengo]

An article from expatica about Maxima/ WRR report:

WRR puts integration debate on edge

25 September 2007
THE HAGUE – The Scientific Council for Government Policy (WRR) has put the discussion on the topic of integration and the council's own position on edge with its report Identification with the Netherlands, the Volkskrant reports.
That can be gathered from the range of reactions to the report; Integration Minister Ella Vogelaar and Democrats D66 leader Alexander Pechtold are enthusiastic about the council's findings for instance. Freedom Party PVV leader Geert Wilders and the Liberal VVD haven't a good word for it. Princess Máxima expressed her support for the WRR in her speech at the presentation of the report.

Read the entire article here.

[Marengo]

As was to be expected the report didn´t fall well with the conservative liberals and the party of Geert Wilders. The VVD said that the Prime Minister should never have given Maxima permission to hold this speech while Wilders (PVV) said that it was well-meant politically correct bullocks.

Article in Dutch here.

[Mandrake]

It is a good thing that the Dutch Royals can speak out on certain themes.
The integration debate is a much discussed theme, with many véry different opinions. Therefore it is not very wise that Princess Maxima made a speach on this. She positions herself in the midst of a heated debate.

I myself found the rapport 'interesting' and useless at the same time. It's a typical academical study with good intentions that is not going to influence normal day behaviour in any way. In the WRR rapport it is like they say 'people are different, will be different, have own opinions and traditions and don't change that and that is okay. I think there are also other thing that could be said, like we have some rules you have to accept, some habits are not custom in this country etc. etc. And to be frank the discussion 'on the streets' is mainly about people from middle-eastern and african -non-western countries-, who have different problems with immigration than people from western countries. And to my knowledge there are no problems with people from Argentina! So why is Maxima the role-model?
That a latina princess speaks about her personal experiences, uses a quote from almost 'saint' prins claus etc.... it will make that people who dislike the original raport are going to dislike Maxima because she gives the rapport a stature it doesn't deserve! And that is happening already.
This simply is to political and controversial

[susan alicia]

the subject might be political and controversial but she did not say anything shocking in itself, it was all non offensive.

Originally Posted by Mandrake

It is a good thing that the Dutch Royals can speak out on certain themes.
The integration debate is a much discussed theme, with many véry different opinions. Therefore it is not very wise that Princess Maxima made a speach on this. She positions herself in the midst of a heated debate.

I myself found the rapport 'interesting' and useless at the same time. It's a typical academical study with good intentions that is not going to influence normal day behaviour in any way. In the WRR rapport it is like they say 'people are different, will be different, have own opinions and traditions and don't change that and that is okay. I think there are also other thing that could be said, like we have some rules you have to accept, some habits are not custom in this country etc. etc. And to be frank the discussion 'on the streets' is mainly about people from middle-eastern and african -non-western countries-, who have different problems with immigration than people from western countries. And to my knowledge there are no problems with people from Argentina! So why is Maxima the role-model?
That a latina princess speaks about her personal experiences, uses a quote from almost 'saint' prins claus etc.... it will make that people who dislike the original raport are going to dislike Maxima because she gives the rapport a stature it doesn't deserve! And that is happening already.
This simply is to political and controversial

[Marengo]

Now about Maxima's speech. I think in the pre-Fortuyn/van Gogh period nobody would have raised even an eyebrow about this speech, but now... I wonder if this was actually the whole came from the goverment (to have Maxima promote piece, quiet, unity etc) or that the court took the initiative. Anyway, she obviously couldn't make a speech and disagree with the WRR conclusion but the other alternative was to stay away completely. Personally I am glad that she spoke out, but I agree with Mandrake that it can be risky.

--
From Dutchnews.nl, read the entire article here.

Máxima is talking rubbish, says Wilders

Tuesday 25 September 2007
Princess Máxima was talking 'well-meant, politically-correct rubbish' when she gave a speech welcoming the publication of a report on Dutch nationality, said Geert Wilders leader of the anti-Islam party PVV on RTL news.

[Verde Esmeralda]

Originally Posted by Regina

She could add Seville, the city where she met Prince Williem

I thought just the same, Regina, as I was reading the speech!

Regarding the role of Máxima as a 'model' of integration, I wouldn't like to get into a political discussie here...though I am tempted to say that a) her speech was meaningful in the sense that she says 'hey, don't think this subject doesn't touch me just because I am a princess', but b)I don't think it's easy for just any expat or inmigrant to relate to her, since the conditions she was given to adapt were absolutely different to the ones someone like any of us could get. She got her passport extra-fast, she didn't have to search for a job or a house, she got an intensive and paid training to learn Dutch... of course, she was going to be a Princess! But I feel this gap is not easy to fill.

[Tan]

puhhhh...

Maxima get a lot of critic for her speech:

http://www.allaboutroyals.com/3439/default.aspx?ctl05$BlocksList$ctl00$ctl01$BlocksList$ctl00$BLOCKTEMPLATE4427_article=23308#anchor_4427

http://www.allaboutroyals.com/3439/default.aspx?ctl05$BlocksList$ctl00$ctl01$BlocksList$ctl00$BLOCKTEMPLATE4427_article=23344#anchor_4427

Sorry no time to translate it.........

[Myriam]

Originally Posted by Tan

puhhhh...

Maxima get a lot of critic for her speech:

http://www.allaboutroyals.com/3439/default.aspx?ctl05$BlocksList$ctl00$ctl01$BlocksList$ctl00$BLOCKTEMPLATE4427_article=23308#anchor_4427

http://www.allaboutroyals.com/3439/default.aspx?ctl05$BlocksList$ctl00$ctl01$BlocksList$ctl00$BLOCKTEMPLATE4427_article=23344#anchor_4427

Sorry no time to translate it.........

i am not surprised with the reaction i was atonished too!
she may knows a lots of theory but real life is another thing. living in a palace is a thing living in a normal neighbhood is another thing especially in europe

[prinsesbeagle]

Who cares anymore what Geert Wilders has to say. He will respond to EVERYTHING. Latest polls about him are not too favorable. A lot of people feel he goes way too far these days. The VVD party is now an opposition party and not taking part in the government, so of course it is sort of predictable they would seize this opportunity too. Not because of the princess or IMHO even what she said, but because it provides them with sometrhing to bother the PM with.
Other than the predictable Geert 'onruststoker' Wilders and conservatives for the opposition party VVD, I have not really heard much criticism on her speech?

Loved her outfit from today.

[Marengo]

Prof. Herman Pleij commented about Maxima´s speech in a talkshow. He said that Maxima said things in such a charming way that he would almost be inclined to say she is right, but she is not. Among other things he added that it is VERY Dutch to say that one is not very Dutch, as the Dutch like to stress their individuality. Secratairy of State, Achmed Aboutaleb (Labour) agreed wholehartedly with the Princess though, and he praised the princess for the genuine interest she took in the subject.

[Pooky]

Originally Posted by Marengo

Prof. Herman Pleij commented about Maxima´s speech in a talkshow. He said that Maxima said things in such a charming way that he would almost be inclined to say she is right, but she is not. Among other things he added that it is VERY Dutch to say that one is not very Dutch, as the Dutch like to stress their individuality. Secratairy of State, Achmed Aboutaleb (Labour) agreed wholehartedly with the Princess though, and he praised the princess for the genuine interest she took in the subject.

Well, the fact that there are so many different opinions about the truth in Maxima's words (basically, that there is no such thing as ONE type of "Nederlander" but MANY) proves that those words are true Multi-culturalism is plain evident, whether some people like it and applaud it or not

Someone also made reference to the special conditions in which her "inburgering" (adaptation programme) took place, which was only logical given the role she was supposed to take up in Dutch society ... But I want to point out that -I- (simple girl from Córdoba in Argentina ) also got a top class "inburgering" programme, with intensive Dutch lessons (university level, NT2II) which cost the Town Hall around 5.000 euros in 2003/2004, what gives an idea of the importance (and resources!) that the Dutch gov't gave to the integration issue back then. Things have changed since then, though ...

[Marengo]

Prof. Paul Scheffer, author of 'The Multicultural Drama' and 'Land of Arrival' is interviewed by 'De Pers', he makes several comments about the speech Princess Maxima gave, none of them were positive:

'Maxima says there is no such thing as the Duchman, I say there is (....) It is arrogant that Maxima calls herself a worldcitizen/ cosmopolitan (wereldburger) just because she comes from Buenos Aires, lived in New York for a while and eventually landed in Wassenaar. (...) She always lived in gated communities, they all resemble each other. According to polls one third will vote for Wilders, Verdonk or SP, never before did so many people feel uncomfortable in the political middle. Maxima's awnser to that is : we don't trust that part of the population anymore. (...) Maxima's remark stand for the revolt of the elite, that followed on the revolt of the people. The refusal of the goverment to allow a second referendum on the European Constitution has to be seen in that light too.'

[Regina]

I don't think New York (USA), Argentina and The Netherlands resemble each other like Prof. Scheffer said. They way of life in these countries is very different. They have important things is common like they are all democracies and the large number of their citizens belong to the same faith but people's personality is very different and I don't think it's so easy to adapt like that. I admire Máxima for they way she adapted to her new Country. She spent many hours learning the Dutch language and culture and I think she is a good example for everyone who tries to beggin a new life in The Netherlands. The problem with her speech was when she said multiculturalism is always a good thing. Imo it's a good thing when you want to use your past experiences in order to become a better citizen in your new country. It's not a good thing when you arrive to a new place and you refuse to adapt to the new norms and culture! When this happen social tensions and conflits will happen. Immigrants adaptation is a hard issue is many european countries ( everything related to National Identity is always a hard issue) and I think Máxima should be careful when she talks about that.

[Marengo]

The point of Prof. Scheffer is that the circles in which Maxima mingles resemble each other, either in Argentina, New York and in The Netherlands. The so-called 'gated communities' resemble each other, not the countries. He has a point there but I think he misinterpreted most what Maxima said and shows his own frustrations about the topic.

[Verde Esmeralda]

Originally Posted by Marengo

The point of Prof. Scheffer is that the circles in which Maxima mingles resemble each other, either in Argentina, New York and in The Netherlands. The so-called 'gated communities' resemble each other, not the countries.

I also agree to this point. I still believe her case is not really representative.

Anyway, due to the tension that this subject brings, I believe Máxima's speech will continue to be ripped off in pieces and re-mixed as many times as convenient for each one....even Tiësto could end up releasing a single out of its remix !!

[Marengo]

The RF/Maxima seem bothered with the wrong interpretation of the speech of the princess. The RF has now a question on their website

´What did the Princess mean exactly with her speech on September 24th about the Dutch identity and one cookie with the coffee´

They explain it and uses the explanation of Maxima as she gave during a press conference in Slovenia. Read the article in Dutch here.

------------------

In the meantime Dutchnews has this article:

Máxima: Holland always multi-cultural

Friday 05 October 2007
Dutch society has never been based on one single culture, princess Máxima says in this week's issue of women's magazine Magriet, reports ANP news service.

Read the entire article here.

[princess olga]

Originally Posted by Marengo

The point of Prof. Scheffer is that the circles in which Maxima mingles resemble each other, either in Argentina, New York and in The Netherlands. The so-called 'gated communities' resemble each other, not the countries. He has a point there but I think he misinterpreted most what Maxima said and shows his own frustrations about the topic.

Completely agree. I for one loved her speech - here was someone who dared say there should be room for her constituents to be themselves, whether black white, catholic or whatever, that was really her point. That the cliches and stereotypes are really just that, a self fulfilling prophecy. She did what she's supposed to do within her role: be a unifying force. I thought she did a great job and the critics are really childish about it.

Off topic: on rtl Boulevard there's footage of a new exhibition Maxima opened this week, not sure this video's mentioned here already. The footage shows i.e. the new portrait of little Alexia, a sculpture in bronze of Alexander at age 1, created by his own mom, then-princess Beatrix.

Here's the link:

Video - week 40

[Marengo]

In the mean time the discussion drags on. The headline of ´De Telegraaf´ screamed that the Orange Associations (!) are critisizing Princess Maxima too. They wondered who were the advisors of the Princess, and suspected that the Princess mingled too much with her own kind of people, expats, (intellectual) elite etc. During these dinner parties at Eikenhorst only the cultural, business, etc. elite is invited, never more ordinairy people. The chairman sad it was unfortunate and curious that the Princess hadn´t found a Dutch identity yet.

TV programme NOVA cathced up on it too and dedicated an item to Maxima´s speech and the uproar it caused and Minister Ella Volgelaar (Integration) said she regretted that the speech leads to more polarisation, which was not the intention. According to the miniister all Maxima wanted to say is that the Dutch identity isn´t a static or an unfinished thing either. The minister also said that she herself, Prime Minister Balkenende and Minister Ernst Hirsch Ballin read the speech beforehand.

I have read several angry reactions in newspapers about he comment to the press in Slovenia too, where the Prince of Orange said that it was unfortunate (jammer) that such critisism appears when one does ones best.

[Maxie]

In my opinion it's much ado about nothing. I find this sudden nationalism a bit scary, if you ask me. So the princess hasn't found the Dutch identity? Well, neither have I and I've been living and growing up here since 1979. One decade everybody is all into multiculturality and political corectness and the other decade everybody is displaying some false nationalism. I can understand Maxima gets lost, because, quite frankly, I've been lost for a while too.

There's just one advice I want to give the princess: just shut up and be pretty, because really, having a brain is totally uncalled for in this function (I'm being cynical here in case you haven't noticed yet). But seriously, I think she'd better stay out of this mess untill further notice. The subject is way too explosive at the moment, especially with that stupid press adding some extra oil to the fire.

[Marengo]

Well, her speech certainly was blown out of proportions, only possioble in the present political climate. Pre-Fortuyn/van Gogh this would have never been an issue. Still, the Princess could have forseen that this might happen, all over boards (here too) regular posters took a first glance at the speech and claimed that it is risky, and that she should have stayed away from the topic.

The discussion has little to do with what the princess literally said btw, people didn´t read the speech completely, heard the quote ´the Dutchman doesn´t exist´ and failed to place it in the context of the speech.

Still, I think that some people who critisize have points. The dinner parties at Villa Eikenhorst are only with certain elites. Nothing wrong with eating with the elite, royalty does that for centuries, but these intellectuals aren´t the average dutchman, so they won´t inform the royals about all that is going on in society (hardly any of them saw the ´Fortuyn revolt´ coming up, while those feelings were certainly important for many people. A more diverse group of people might be more informative for the couple. Another thing that one shouldn´t forget is that the most important strength of the Dutch monarchy in the past was that it was closely associated woth the people, not with the ruling elite´s. Though societies change, Juliana was still considered ´one of us´, but the present Queen and her relatives, all with the typical fratboy/ hockeyplayer accent have rebranded the image of the RF, to something more elitarian than was the case in previous years. And one of the most important charactaristics of Dutch society (which Maxima missed) is that we are VERY equalitarian, so that is why all these discussions start about free parking for Margriets sons, paying for a boats etc. Petty in some eyes maybe, but still important enough.

In the seventies conservative parties/newspapers started a campaign against Prince Claus and his advisory function at the ministery of Development Aid. In the end he needed to resign. I don´t think Maxima will be forced to stay away from the immigration subject yet, but one or two more controversial remarks might make the goverment want to limit her freedom of movement.