Abdication Beatrix and Inauguration WA: Titles, Names, Succession, Precedence

[Artemisia]

Originally Posted by Princess Robijn

Question 1:

Titles in the Netherlands are only automatic for the King (Queen), a former King of Queen, and the heir to the throne, as well as their respective spouses. In order to limit the amount of Princes and Princess, it was decided that the children of Prince Constantijn and Princess Laurentien were to be Count or Countess of Orange-Nassau and Jonkheer or Jonkvrouw van Amsberg. This was established at the time of their engagement/wedding.

The children of Princess Margriet were born in a different time. It is not relevant for the children of Constantijn.
...

A question about membership in the Dutch Royal House. I noticed that while Constantijn and Laurentien's children are still in the Line of Succession, they are no longer members of the Royal House. Is there any particular reason for that? And, since they are no longer members of the Royal House and never held Princely titles, could they (in theory) be made Prince/Princesses of Orang-Nassau?

[Princess Robijn]

Originally Posted by Artemisia

A question about membership in the Dutch Royal House. I noticed that while Constantijn and Laurentien's children are still in the Line of Succession, they are no longer members of the Royal House. Is there any particular reason for that? And, since they are no longer members of the Royal House and never held Princely titles, could they (in theory) be made Prince/Princesses of Orang-Nassau?

It's called the principle of proximity of blood. In this case it means that only those within three degrees of kinship can succeed and that only those within two degrees of kinship are members of the Royal House. (Of course this also includes his or her spouse.)

Technically, the Queen can make them Princesses and Prince now (Article 9.2*), or King Willem-Alexander can make them Princesses and Prince within 3 months after becoming King. Of course it won't be an issue, because if the Queen wanted them to be Prince or Princess, she would have arranged it before the wedding of Prince Constantijn and Princess Laurentien.

If the Queen would choose to create them Princesses and Prince, IMO it would have to be confirmed by King Willem-Alexander as they will no longer be part of the Royal House after the abdication of Queen Beatrix. But I could be wrong about the need for confirmation. It's from the same law I mentioned HERE.** Within 3 months after loosing the right to be part of the Royal House, it has to be decided if the person it's about will have the personal title of Prince(ss) of Orange-Nassau. The law does not specify as to why a member of the Royal family loses his or her membership of the Royal House. (Article 9.3*)

The title Count of Orange-Nassau (& Jonkheer van Amsberg) is hereditary for the male line though.

* wetten.nl - Wet- en regelgeving - Wet lidmaatschap koninklijk huis - BWBR0013729 -- Google Translation
** Google Translation lists those eligible for the personal title of Prince or Princess of Orange-Nassau as members of the Royal family. This is incorrect. The correct translation of the Dutch "Koninklijk Huis" is Royal House.

[Artemisia]

Thank you for the excellent explanation, Princess Robijn!
I was aware of three degrees of kinship in regards to the succession but not two degrees of kinship in regards to membership in the Royal House.

To be honest though I still don't see why Constantijn's children won't be members of the House though. Aren't they within two degrees of kinship to Willem-Alexander? And if they aren't, how is Princess Margriet eligible to remain a member of the Royal House?

Willem-Alexander -> Prince Constantijn -> Constantijn's children
Willem-Alexander -> Queen Beatrix -> Princess Margriet

[Artemisia]

That is what confuses me. By an Act of Parliament, the members of the Royal House are:
- The Monarch and his/her spouse
- The former Monarch (who abdicated) and his/her spouse
- The members of the Royal Family in the Line of Succession and their spouses.

Maurits and Bernhard are currently in the Line of Succession and members of the Royal House. They will cease to be in the succession line upon Willem-Alexander's accession and will also automatically lose membership of the Royal House. Princess Margriet is and will remain both in the Line of Succession and member of the Royal House. So far everything is clear. But then Prince Constantijn's children will lose their membership in the Royal House upon Willem-Alexander's accession, even though they will remain in the Line of Succession. I just don't see the logic behind that.


Just for the record, I take the information Constantijn's children will cease to be members of the Royal House directly from the official website:

From that moment on, under the Membership of the Royal House Act, the children of Princess Margriet and Professor Pieter van Vollenhoven and the children of Prince Constantijn and Princess Laurentien will cease to be members of the Royal House

[Princess Robijn]

It's 2 different issues.

2 degrees of Kinships means the following in the case of Prince Constantijn's children:
Eloise, Claus-Casimir & Leonore -> Constantijn (1 degree) -> Beatrix (2 degrees) -> Willem-Alexander (3 degrees)

This means they will still be in line of succession to the throne (3 degrees of Kinship), but won't be members of the Royal House. (2 degrees)

As for Margriet and her oldest two sons. Article 3.1 from the Wet lidmaatschap Koninklijk Huis (link above) states that everyone who was an adult at the effective date of the Act (as well as their respective spouses) would remain a part of the Royal House as long as they were in line of succession. Therefor, Princess Margriet and her sons kept their membership of the Royal House with the Act of 2002. (With Prince Pieter-Christiaan and Prince Floris losing their memberships later on, because they didn't ask permission for their respective marriages.) Princess Margriet will remain in line of succession and therefor will also remain a member of the Royal House and Princes Maurits and Bernhard, no longer in line to the throne, will loose their membership of the Royal House.

I do agree with you (Artemisia) though. I see no logic in someone being in line of succession, but not a member of the Royal House. It's not like it's the line of succession to the British throne.

However, membership of the Royal House CAN be given by Royal Degree, providing he or she is in line of succession. (Membership can also be given to spouses) Article 4. This does need to be approved by the Raad van State (= Council of State)

Originally Posted by Artemisia

That is what confuses me. By an Act of Parliament, the members of the Royal House are:
- The members of the Royal Family in the Line of Succession and their spouses.

This is incorrect, it states:
Those who are in line of succession [and spouses], provided that they are not further then 2 degrees Kinship [apart from the King*]

* is insinuated, but not actually stated in Article 1a.

[Artemisia]

That makes sense now. Once more, thank you very much for the detailed explanation.
I have to say though it would have been more logical to apply the same three degrees of kinship rule to inclusion in both the Line of Succession and the Royal House.

[Princess Robijn]

You're welcome

[castell]

Will Maxima be granted the Privilège du Blanc (to wear white) when she meets the Pope as a Catholic Queen? Like Queen Sofia or Queen Paola?

Recently Charlene of Monaco wore white when she met Pope Benedict, altough Grace always wore black when she met the Pope.
The Vatican's Press office has confirmed in its statement that Charlene was allowed to wear white, which means that the Privilege of White was extended to her too.

[Artemisia]

Highly unlikely.
The privilège du blanc only extends to female Catholic Monarchs or wives of Catholic Monarchs.

Although Maxima herself remains a Catholic, her husband will not be a Catholic Monarch so the privilege should not be granted to her. Charlene is a wife of a Catholic Sovereign (not a King but a Sovereign Prince) and as such it wasn't as much breaking as stretching the rule to grant her the privilège du blanc.

[cepe]

I'm not sure if this is the right thread, so please move if I've made a mistake.

Queen Beatrix has many honours, including foreign ones such as the Order of the Garter and the Order of the Golden Fleece. Does she keep them once she has abdicated? I'm assuming she does.

[Artemisia]

Those honours were bestowed upon Beatrix personally (and not just in her capacity as a Monarch) so she will most certainly keep all of them, including Order of the Garter, Order of St. Olav, Royal Victorian Order, Order of the Elephant, and others.

[AnnaNotherThing]

What will Princess Maxima's title be? Queen Maxima?

[kathia_sophia]

Yes, in less than 3 weeks she will be HM Queen Maxima.

[imojeen]

will queen beatrix be named as princess or dowager queen after abdication?

[Lumutqueen]

Originally Posted by imojeen

will queen beatrix be named as princess or dowager queen after abdication?

Princess Beatrix.

[Dutchy]

In the Netherlands it´s tradition, the queen will named after her abdication princess. Look also to the past: After her abdication In 1948 Queen Wilhelmina was named Princess Wilhelmina and in 1980 Queen Juliana´s title after abdication was Princess. Currently now they rest in the Royal tomb as Queen. I think Emma ( the mother of Wilhelmina) was the only one in the Dutch Royal History who has the title Queen Mother.

[Stefan]

Originally Posted by Dutchy

In the Netherlands it´s tradition, the queen will named after her abdication princess. Look also to the past: After her abdication In 1948 Queen Wilhelmina was named Princess Wilhelmina and in 1980 Queen Juliana´s title after abdication was Princess. Currently now they rest in the Royal tomb as Queen. I think Emma ( the mother of Wilhelmina) was the only one in the Dutch Royal History who has the title Queen Mother.

What about Queen Anna Pavlovna?. She remained Queen after the death of her husband but was she also known as Queen Mother?

[lucien]

Originally Posted by Stefan

What about Queen Anna Pavlovna?. She remained Queen after the death of her husband but was she also known as Queen Mother?

No,this daughter of Tsar Paul was not known as Queen Mother,that only happened with Queen Mother Emma,or Queen Regent..as that was a title she was known by as well.After her,starting with Queen Wilhelmina,they reverted to the title Princess as to emphasize that for the Constitution the Monarch is "dead" immediatly after the Abdication.

[Xigua]

A slightly different, but related query, please. How was precedence determined for the seating arrangements in the Nieuwe Kerke, and elsewhere during the enthronement events? For instance, how would it be decided where HRH The Prince of Wales should be seated, in contrast with (for example) Albert II of Monaco?

[Lumutqueen]

Originally Posted by Xigua

A slightly different, but related query, please. How was precedence determined for the seating arrangements in the Nieuwe Kerke, and elsewhere during the enthronement events? For instance, how would it be decided where HRH The Prince of Wales should be seated, in contrast with (for example) Albert II of Monaco?

Here's a picture of the event which shows who sat where;
General View During The Inauguration Ceremony Of King
http://www.gettyimages.co.uk/detail/...hoto/167806278