Will Charles Ever Reign?

[jcasey170]

I'm confused by this entire thread. H.R.H. The Prince of Wales is heir to the thrones of the United Kingdom and etc.

When his mother dies, assuming he does not predecease her, he will assume the throne.

Whats to discuss?

 

[Iluvbertie]

The fact that some people want the throne to pass directly to William, as if somehow the Queen has a say over who inherits the throne.

The fact that he is already over 60 and maybe will be seen as too old (not an issue for me as long as he is mentally competant to carry out his constitutional duties and remembering that he has a long way to go until he is the oldest to inherit the throne.)

The fact that some Diana fanatics want to punish him for marrying her in the first place and making her unhappy. Despite the fact that she also made him unhappy he is to be held totally responsible, in the minds of some people, for any unhappiness in that marriage.

Personally I think he will made a great king and I hope that he lives to be at least as old as his maternal grandmother or even older.

 

[scooter]

I always find it interesting that when someone dislikes Charles or Camilla it's because of 'the fact' they are 'Diana Fanatics' as opposed to not liking Charles and Camilla as a result of their behavior. Diana has been dead a long time. Why keep bringing her up?

 

[ghost_night554]

I definitely think Charles should reign, I think if the throne was passed to William it would be extremely hard on him and I don't think his grandmother would want him to have the same pressure she had at such a young age, I think she would want to give him some more time to prepare himself. In fact I think Charles would probably be a really good King, from what I've seen he seems to mostly care very much and is interested in alot of great things.

 

[MARG]

. . . . . . . . . . I think if the throne was passed to William it would be extremely hard on him and I don't think his grandmother would want him to have the same pressure she had at such a young age, I think she would want to give him some more time to prepare himself. . . . . . . .

I agree with the sentiments but there still seems to be an inference that the succession is within the Queen's Gift and of course it is not! As jcasey170 has so eloquently stated:

When his mother dies, assuming he does not predecease her, he will assume the throne.

 

[jcbcode99]

I am still a little surprised this topic is still running; it's like beating a dead horse. The only way Charles will not reign is if he dies before his mother dies--and he seems to be in good health so I doubt that happens. If you look at the facts, they are short, but sweet. Charles is the heir to throne, he will become King. I find it ridiculous that Diana, dead or alive, is even relevant to Charles' ascension to the throne. It is quite self-serving to continually discuss whether or not he should assume the throne because some think William should --- well, does William want to be King before his father? Wouldn't that make him feel odd? And, simply stated--it isn't done that way. This whole topic rests on a small number of people's "loyalty" to Diana--and while nice, it isn't relevant because we are discussing the succession.
The real topic has always been what title Camilla will take upon his ascension. I still hope for Queen because I'm worried if she is not Queen Consort she won't have access to some of the jewels--I know that there are deeper issues here, but I want to see some jewels. A secondary topic is what name Charles will go by; I like Charles II, but some have suggested the possibility of another George. Time will tell--

 

[Madame Royale]

The real topic has always been what title Camilla will take upon his ascension. I still hope for Queen because I'm worried if she is not Queen Consort she won't have access to some of the jewels--I know that there are deeper issues here, but I want to see some jewels.

Whether Queen or Princess Consort, she'll still be 'the' consort, jcb.

I don't see why Camilla, as the King's spouse, wouldn't be able to use any bejewelled diadem's, tiara's, collier's, necklaces, brooch's, stomachers, earrings, bracelets or pins which are otherwise reserved for the use of the wife of the British monarch.

Jewellery which is left to the Crown, can be allocated at the sovereign's discreation and I don't invision Charles prohibiting his wife from using any particular piece of jewellery (hopefully as long as it suits her and as long as it isn't heavily associated with any one person since passed...mind you, I'd quite like to see Camilla make use of the Cambridge emeralds at some stage).

 

[Iluvbertie]

What she won't be able to wear, if not Queen Consort, is the Consort's actual crown.

 

[Iluvbertie]

A secondary topic is what name Charles will go by; I like Charles II, but some have suggested the possibility of another George. Time will tell--

I too like Charles II. He is one of my favourite monarchs. I always felt sorry for him losing his father the way he did but pleased that he restored the monarchy in a relatively sensible manner.

 

[Madame Royale]

What she won't be able to wear, if not Queen Consort, is the Consort's actual crown.

I noted that in my original response, but removed it as I thought that rather obvious...hehe.

So she wouldn't wear a crown. That's no big issue, imo. I think the State Diadem could serve as a more than suitable 'replacement' if Camilla is created Princess Consort. But that's just my opinion.

 

[Elspeth]

I think there may be some agitation from people who object to the Princess Consort wearing jewels left by Queen Victoria specifically to be worn by future queens, but we'll have to see if that actually happens.

 

[Madame Royale]

I think there may be some agitation from people who object to the Princess Consort wearing jewels left by Queen Victoria specifically to be worn by future queens, but we'll have to see if that actually happens.

True. However, I think you'd be hard pressed to come across anyone, who unless they have a long standing interest in royal jewels, would even be aware that Queen Victoria specifically left jewellery to be worn by future Queen's. Where the general public is concerned, I'd imagine that most wouldn't even have a clue.

The British public aren't particularly well versed with such things as has been my experience...

 

[Elspeth]

No, but it only takes one of the Daily Mail muckrakers to read TRF and pick up on an angle like that, and then they can write an outraged piece in the paper as though they were some sort of expert on British royal history, and that'll get the base nicely riled up.

 

[Madame Royale]

Indeed. One shouldn't discredit the editorial matter this forum can at times persuade...

But if Camilla technically remained Queen, though was officially known as Princess Consort, then there's grounds enough to insist that HRH has every right to make use of the specified jewellery. I guess whatever formula is used regarding her title at the time, shall dictate whether or not her use of the jewellery is valid and viable. Though I don't think it would be much of an issue, myself.

 

[jcbcode99]

I also worry about the ramifications of some yellow journalist writing about Camilla wearing jewels only designated for a Queen Consort, but I have to say that I do like Madame Royale's summation on the subject--be it Queen or Princess, Camilla will be the Consort and I agree that the State Diadem is perfect for her to wear. But, still, there is the selfish side of me that desires to see her alongside her husband wearing the Queen Mother's (or Queen Mary's if I'm really honest) crown. The more I think about it, the more plausible it seems that Camilla will be the Queen Consort, and even crowned Consort, but will prefer to be known as the Princess Consort in a similar arrangement as we now see with the PoW title. Unfair? Yes. Practical? At the same time, yes. That way, the small minority are appeased and the jewels are seen. I assume she would be first in the order of precedence.

 

[Madame Royale]

I assume she would be first in the order of precedence.

Whether Queen or Princess Consort, Camilla will, as spouse, rank second to the sovereign. Absolutely.

 

[wbenson]

British precedence is usually split into two lists, one for men and one for women. She would be at the top of the womens' list (but still below the King, obviously). (Although splitting it is becoming increasingly outmoded due to the number of female officeholders.)

 

[scooter]

I think there may be some agitation from people who object to the Princess Consort wearing jewels left by Queen Victoria specifically to be worn by future queens, but we'll have to see if that actually happens.

Well, Granny was extremely specific in her will about the schedule of jewels designated 'to be worn by future Queens in right of it'. Given how the BRF reveres Queen Victoria (ie the 'dont sit there, Queen Victoria last sat in that chair', etc), I would be shocked if they flagrantly flouted the will. There are so many sparkly whatevers in the vault that have not seen the light of day in 100 years....why not trot some of them out instead? Especially if one believes his statement at the time of his engagement to Camilla...'It is intended that she will be known as the Princess Consort', not Queen Camilla.

 

[Skydragon]

When the time comes, it is not going to matter one hoot what Victoria may or may not have put in her will. I can't say I have ever come across a rule of don't sit there because Victoria did!

 

[Roslyn]

I haven't been able to find the text of Victoria's will anywhere, but I imagine that anything she said about her jewels was just an expression of her wishes as to who should wear certain things and such precatory words in a will generally have no legal force or effect.

She might have listed certain jewels as being those she considered so special for some reason that they should only be worn by future queens regnant or the wives future kings. I doubt Queen Victoria would have contemplated what might be suitable to be work by a future king's wife if that wife were not queen consort, since that concept would be unlikely to have occurred to her in her wildest dreams. Camilla is Charles' wife and, all going well, she will one day be the King's wife and consort, regardless of what she is called. She will be able to wear whatever Charles thinks she should be able to wear.

If Queen Victoria's ideas and opinions had any legal bearing on Queen Elizabeth II's children, Prince Edward would probably have been made heir apparent long ago.

 

[MARG]

If Queen Victoria's ideas and opinions had any legal bearing on Queen Elizabeth II's children, Prince Edward would probably have been made heir apparent long ago.

Point well made Roslyn. But it really does go to show that those who harbour antiquated ideas about the marriage and divorce of royalty have already got their ducks in a row. If they can't take the crown from Charles they'll make damned sure there is a fuss every time someone see's Camilla wear something they "believe" is only meant for a Queen.

Charles will reign, that is my belief. Camilla will be Queen, that is my hope. I really don't understand those that believe that the sucession is a gift to be earned. Hell Harry VIII would have been well and truely kicked out of the kingdom by the selective puritanical stance of some utterly joyless gits!

However, it is my understanding that for Camilla not to be Queen will require an act of parliament and leaving it until the Queen is already dead will create some ethical and moral dilemma's. "The Queen is dead, long live the King, but hang about, we'll have to have a special session in parliament to change the rules . . . . . . now should we fit that in before, during or after the funeral of the Queen?

Well, Granny was extremely specific in her will about the schedule of jewels designated 'to be worn by future Queens in right of it'. . . . . . I would be shocked if they flagrantly flouted the will. There are so many sparkly whatevers in the vault that have not seen the light of day in 100 years....why not trot some of them out instead? Especially if one believes his statement at the time of his engagement to Camilla...'It is intended that she will be known as the Princess Consort', not Queen Camilla.

Anyone got a copy of Queen Victoria's Will so we can remove any jewellry from temptation . . . . maybe while they are all at the Funeral Service?"

Like I said . . . .

 

[Warren]

I know nothing about Queen Victoria's will but the official designation is "Jewels left to the Crown". The Crown is currently represented by Elizabeth II; in due course it will be represented by Charles III. It will be he who decides who wears what.

Among the many pieces Victoria left to the Crown were three jewelled head ornaments:

• The Diamond Diadem of George IV (band remounted 1902, row of pearls added 1937)
• The Brilliant Regal Tiara (the diamonds remounted in 1937 for the crown of Queen Elizabeth)
• Regal Indian Tiara (remounted for Queen Alexandra in 1902, opals replaced with rubies)

In short: one diadem, one crown and one tiara for those so inclined to argue over.

 

[scooter]

Pg 10, 'The Jewels of Queen Elizabeth' by Leslie Field..."her will contained a schedule of jewels that were to be considered as 'belonging to the Crown and to be worn by all future Queens in right of it' ".

 

[Roslyn]

Thanks for pointing out that reference, Scooter.

 

[Elspeth]

If Camilla does become Princess Consort, it sort of depends on how it's done. If they do an end run around the current situation where a monarch (and hence spouse) can't take other titles and announce that HM Queen Camilla will be known by the fictitious title of HRH Princess Consort, then she'll still be Queen even though she isn't called Queen, so the terms of Queen Victoria's will would be complied with. However, if legislation is passed to deprive her of the title of Queen and create her Princess Consort in her own right, or however they'd do it, that would be a different situation. Even then, what if she did show up wearing the Oriental Circlet or the George IV diadem? Apart from the tabloids having a field day, what, practically, could anybody do about it?

 

[Princess Mia]

No, to be honest I don't think he should.

 

[Iluvbertie]

No, to be honest I don't think he should.

Could you please explain why you think Britain should change their laws to deprive a hardworking dedicated Prince of Wales from his inheritance?

 

[Skydragon]

Pg 10, 'The Jewels of Queen Elizabeth' by Leslie Field..."her will contained a schedule of jewels that were to be considered as 'belonging to the Crown and to be worn by all future Queens in right of it'

I wonder where she got her information from regarding the will, or if she details it at all.

We all know that certain items are deemed to belong to the crown and some personal, so it doesn't really give us any new information.

 

[Lumutqueen]

If Camilla does become Princess Consort, it sort of depends on how it's done. If they do an end run around the current situation where a monarch (and hence spouse) can't take other titles and announce that HM Queen Camilla will be known by the fictitious title of HRH Princess Consort, then she'll still be Queen even though she isn't called Queen, so the terms of Queen Victoria's will would be complied with. However, if legislation is passed to deprive her of the title of Queen and create her Princess Consort in her own right, or however they'd do it, that would be a different situation. Even then, what if she did show up wearing the Oriental Circlet or the George IV diadem? Apart from the tabloids having a field day, what, practically, could anybody do about it?

Quite right. It would be wonderful to see Camilla to recieve the title she deserves, after everything that the press and people around her have put her through she deserves to be by Charles' side when he becomes king. The press can make a fuss about her wearing jewels that she shouldn't have or doing things she shouldn't do but as you say Elspeth they cannot do anything. After everything that the press have thrown at Camilla she has come through with Charles and the royal family behind her. I would be incredible prod to have her as my Queen.
x

 

[Elspeth]

I wonder where she got her information from regarding the will, or if she details it at all.

We all know that certain items are deemed to belong to the crown and some personal, so it doesn't really give us any new information.

According to the blurb on the book cover, she was granted access to the Royal Archives to do research for the book. This book is obviously aiming to be authoritative, and the Royal Archives access means that something presented as a direct quote (as this statement is) is more than likely exactly that.

The actual passage (1997 edition, page 11) is

"Royal wills are never made public so exactly how Queen Victoria divided her vast private fortune among her descendants cannot be known for certain. However her will included a schedule of jewels that were to be considered 'as belonging to the Crown and to be worn by all future Queens in right of it.' The list included those Hanoverian jewels which Queen Victoria had kept after the resolution of the court case in 1858, the King George IV State Diadem, which now became part of the Crown Regalia, and a number of pieces of jewellery that she had been given by Prince Albert or that they had designed together from stones already in the royal collection. The rest of her jewellery was divided among her children and grandchildren."

So the bit about "all future Queens" might mean that every Queen has to wear each of those pieces at least once!