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  #1821  
Old 05-29-2009, 08:06 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Roslyn View Post
If Queen Victoria's ideas and opinions had any legal bearing on Queen Elizabeth II's children, Prince Edward would probably have been made heir apparent long ago.
Point well made Roslyn. But it really does go to show that those who harbour antiquated ideas about the marriage and divorce of royalty have already got their ducks in a row. If they can't take the crown from Charles they'll make damned sure there is a fuss every time someone see's Camilla wear something they "believe" is only meant for a Queen.

Charles will reign, that is my belief. Camilla will be Queen, that is my hope. I really don't understand those that believe that the sucession is a gift to be earned. Hell Harry VIII would have been well and truely kicked out of the kingdom by the selective puritanical stance of some utterly joyless gits!

However, it is my understanding that for Camilla not to be Queen will require an act of parliament and leaving it until the Queen is already dead will create some ethical and moral dilemma's. "The Queen is dead, long live the King, but hang about, we'll have to have a special session in parliament to change the rules . . . . . . now should we fit that in before, during or after the funeral of the Queen?
Quote:
Originally Posted by scooter View Post
Well, Granny was extremely specific in her will about the schedule of jewels designated 'to be worn by future Queens in right of it'. . . . . . I would be shocked if they flagrantly flouted the will. There are so many sparkly whatevers in the vault that have not seen the light of day in 100 years....why not trot some of them out instead? Especially if one believes his statement at the time of his engagement to Camilla...'It is intended that she will be known as the Princess Consort', not Queen Camilla.
Anyone got a copy of Queen Victoria's Will so we can remove any jewellry from temptation . . . . maybe while they are all at the Funeral Service?"

Like I said . . . .
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  #1822  
Old 05-29-2009, 10:35 AM
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I know nothing about Queen Victoria's will but the official designation is "Jewels left to the Crown". The Crown is currently represented by Elizabeth II; in due course it will be represented by Charles III. It will be he who decides who wears what.

Among the many pieces Victoria left to the Crown were three jewelled head ornaments:

• The Diamond Diadem of George IV (band remounted 1902, row of pearls added 1937)
• The Brilliant Regal Tiara (the diamonds remounted in 1937 for the crown of Queen Elizabeth)
• Regal Indian Tiara (remounted for Queen Alexandra in 1902, opals replaced with rubies)

In short: one diadem, one crown and one tiara for those so inclined to argue over.
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  #1823  
Old 05-29-2009, 08:11 PM
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Pg 10, 'The Jewels of Queen Elizabeth' by Leslie Field..."her will contained a schedule of jewels that were to be considered as 'belonging to the Crown and to be worn by all future Queens in right of it' ".
  #1824  
Old 05-30-2009, 01:19 AM
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Thanks for pointing out that reference, Scooter.
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  #1825  
Old 05-30-2009, 01:46 AM
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If Camilla does become Princess Consort, it sort of depends on how it's done. If they do an end run around the current situation where a monarch (and hence spouse) can't take other titles and announce that HM Queen Camilla will be known by the fictitious title of HRH Princess Consort, then she'll still be Queen even though she isn't called Queen, so the terms of Queen Victoria's will would be complied with. However, if legislation is passed to deprive her of the title of Queen and create her Princess Consort in her own right, or however they'd do it, that would be a different situation. Even then, what if she did show up wearing the Oriental Circlet or the George IV diadem? Apart from the tabloids having a field day, what, practically, could anybody do about it?
  #1826  
Old 05-30-2009, 03:47 AM
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No, to be honest I don't think he should.
  #1827  
Old 05-30-2009, 04:37 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Princess Mia View Post
No, to be honest I don't think he should.
Could you please explain why you think Britain should change their laws to deprive a hardworking dedicated Prince of Wales from his inheritance?
  #1828  
Old 05-30-2009, 05:36 AM
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Quote:
Pg 10, 'The Jewels of Queen Elizabeth' by Leslie Field..."her will contained a schedule of jewels that were to be considered as 'belonging to the Crown and to be worn by all future Queens in right of it'
I wonder where she got her information from regarding the will, or if she details it at all.

We all know that certain items are deemed to belong to the crown and some personal, so it doesn't really give us any new information.
  #1829  
Old 05-30-2009, 01:41 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Elspeth View Post
If Camilla does become Princess Consort, it sort of depends on how it's done. If they do an end run around the current situation where a monarch (and hence spouse) can't take other titles and announce that HM Queen Camilla will be known by the fictitious title of HRH Princess Consort, then she'll still be Queen even though she isn't called Queen, so the terms of Queen Victoria's will would be complied with. However, if legislation is passed to deprive her of the title of Queen and create her Princess Consort in her own right, or however they'd do it, that would be a different situation. Even then, what if she did show up wearing the Oriental Circlet or the George IV diadem? Apart from the tabloids having a field day, what, practically, could anybody do about it?
Quite right. It would be wonderful to see Camilla to recieve the title she deserves, after everything that the press and people around her have put her through she deserves to be by Charles' side when he becomes king. The press can make a fuss about her wearing jewels that she shouldn't have or doing things she shouldn't do but as you say Elspeth they cannot do anything. After everything that the press have thrown at Camilla she has come through with Charles and the royal family behind her. I would be incredible prod to have her as my Queen.
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  #1830  
Old 05-30-2009, 04:35 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Skydragon View Post
I wonder where she got her information from regarding the will, or if she details it at all.

We all know that certain items are deemed to belong to the crown and some personal, so it doesn't really give us any new information.
According to the blurb on the book cover, she was granted access to the Royal Archives to do research for the book. This book is obviously aiming to be authoritative, and the Royal Archives access means that something presented as a direct quote (as this statement is) is more than likely exactly that.

The actual passage (1997 edition, page 11) is

"Royal wills are never made public so exactly how Queen Victoria divided her vast private fortune among her descendants cannot be known for certain. However her will included a schedule of jewels that were to be considered 'as belonging to the Crown and to be worn by all future Queens in right of it.' The list included those Hanoverian jewels which Queen Victoria had kept after the resolution of the court case in 1858, the King George IV State Diadem, which now became part of the Crown Regalia, and a number of pieces of jewellery that she had been given by Prince Albert or that they had designed together from stones already in the royal collection. The rest of her jewellery was divided among her children and grandchildren."

So the bit about "all future Queens" might mean that every Queen has to wear each of those pieces at least once!
  #1831  
Old 05-30-2009, 07:21 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Elspeth View Post
So the bit about "all future Queens" might mean that every Queen has to wear each of those pieces at least once!
That thought occurred to me when I read that passage.

I had delightful visions of:

He: "Put it on, you have to wear it, Queen Victoria said so!"
She: "No, no, no! It's hideous."
He: "Pleeeease?!"
She: "No!"



One could argue that the words don't say that no-one else can wear them, just that the queens have to.

But as I've said previously, I don't think it matters. They belong to the Crown, and the monarch for the time being can decide who gets to wear the baubles.
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  #1832  
Old 05-31-2009, 05:05 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Elspeth View Post
So the bit about "all future Queens" might mean that every Queen has to wear each of those pieces at least once!
thanks Elspeth, for taking the time to type it all out. It could of course mean that all future Queens have a right to wear them, not that they have to or others can't.

With the vast array of goodies that will be at her disposal, will Camilla be distraught at not wearing one or two bits and pieces anyway?
  #1833  
Old 05-31-2009, 05:25 AM
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Originally Posted by Skydragon View Post
With the vast array of goodies that will be at her disposal, will Camilla be distraught at not wearing one or two bits and pieces anyway?
I strongly doubt it.
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  #1834  
Old 05-31-2009, 09:34 AM
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Camilla seems too comfortable in her own skin to care about all that sort of rubbish. She seems more likely to care if what she doesn't wear is read or misread as a slight against her husband. Like it or not, it is a factor.

Jewelery has always been a status symbol but in royal circles it is in fact, "in your face shorthand"! Just check out the State Banquet for President Sarkozy. The Queen, followed the dictates of the government on that occasion and really pushed the boat out, her sparklers being the icing on the cake (oh how insignificant was that itsy bitsy diamond brooch?).

We all know it and if it didn't really matter we would not be talking about the type of jewels she will be entitled to wear on a "Will Charles Ever Reign? thread.
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  #1835  
Old 06-05-2009, 12:43 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Elspeth View Post
If Camilla does become Princess Consort, it sort of depends on how it's done. If they do an end run around the current situation where a monarch (and hence spouse) can't take other titles and announce that HM Queen Camilla will be known by the fictitious title of HRH Princess Consort, then she'll still be Queen even though she isn't called Queen, so the terms of Queen Victoria's will would be complied with. However, if legislation is passed to deprive her of the title of Queen and create her Princess Consort in her own right, or however they'd do it, that would be a different situation. Even then, what if she did show up wearing the Oriental Circlet or the George IV diadem? Apart from the tabloids having a field day, what, practically, could anybody do about it?
I believe this whole debate is really a non-issue. Legally, Camilla became The Princess of Wales upon her marriage to Charles.

English law provides that the wife of a noble attains the same status as her husband upon marriage, unless her status is higher than his or she marries a peer. In that case, the wife is entitled to continue to use her higher rank.

For example, in the case of a Duke's daughter, she would be styled Lady Anne. Were Lady Anne to marry a plain Mr. Smith, then she would become Lady Anne Smith after marriage, as she holds the higher rank. If she were to marry the Earl of Devon, then she would become the Countess of Devon because she married a peer, even if she outranks her husband as the daughter of a duke.

Camilla and the royal family decided to style her the Duchess of Cornwall because they deemed it more acceptable than calling her Princess of Wales, and use the Cornwall title to distance her from the legacy of Diana.

When Charles ascends the throne, Camilla will legally be the Queen Consort. What she chooses to call herself, or what the royal family ultimately decides, will not alter her legal status. If she styles herself as Princess Consort, then she is not relinquishing her rights in any way whatsoever, and I expect that no matter what her style will be, she will be crowned with Charles when the time comes.
  #1836  
Old 06-06-2009, 09:56 PM
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Well said; I completely agree with everything you wrote. And, I do hope to see her crowned with Charles--wearing a crown!
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  #1837  
Old 06-14-2009, 11:58 AM
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The question is one that will have to be considered when Charles becomes King. Unlike the current situation, whereas Camilla enjoys all of her husband's styles and titles but has chosen to use her ducal title as her style, once he is King, she has no choice in her style and title except Queen. The wife of the King is Queen and nothing else.

The Government would have to agree the wife of The King is legally Queen Consort, but can be styled by a lesser title and rank as HRH The Princess Consort without legislation being passed by Parliament.
  #1838  
Old 06-14-2009, 12:08 PM
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Originally Posted by HM Queen Catherine View Post
What she chooses to call herself, or what the royal family ultimately decides, will not alter her legal status. If she styles herself as Princess Consort, then she is not relinquishing her rights in any way whatsoever, and I expect that no matter what her style will be, she will be crowned with Charles when the time comes.
Constitutionally, she is Queen automatically in her own right when Charles assumes the throne. To be known as HRH The Princess Consort requires The Sovereign to issue letters patent creating Camilla as such.

Since being a Royal Highness and Princess in your own right when you are legally Queen has no precedent, Parliament would have to agree and consent to changing the style and title of the succession. It is a lesser rank for the King's wife and creates a morganatic marriage.

I personally do not think this will come to pass nor do I believe Parliament will agree she can be known as Princess Consort without legislation.
  #1839  
Old 06-14-2009, 12:12 PM
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I agree that the wife of the King can only be Queen; there is really no other option.
However, if the style and title of the Princess Consort is still insisted upon, wouldn't that require legislation not just by the British/Scottish Parliaments, but also by the Parliaments of all the countries of the Realm, that would recognize Charles as their Monarch? If that is the case, I find such outcome highly unlikely.
Of course, Camilla could technically be Princess Consort in Britain (assuming legislation is passed) and Queen Consort in the other Realms, but that's equally improbable.
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  #1840  
Old 06-14-2009, 12:21 PM
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Originally Posted by Marsel77 View Post
However, if the style and title of the Princess Consort is still insisted upon, wouldn't that require legislation not just by the British/Scottish Parliaments, but also by the Parliaments of all the countries of the Realm, what would recognize Charles as their Monarch?
Yes, it would. Probably not a big deal in this day and age, but it adds another layer of complication, especially since it would invite public debate in the Commonwealth and Crown nations about the monarchy.
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