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  #1541  
Old 09-07-2007, 12:14 PM
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Originally Posted by BeatrixFan View Post
The problem is, the Welsh have been convinced that they're a country and that they can throw their weight about like the Scots. Sadly they're mistaken and I very much doubt they'll ever be listened to on a matter such as this.
Wales isnt a country? Since when? if you ask someone from Wales what is their nationality, it's Welsh. If you ask them what country they are from they say Wales, not Great Britain, right?
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  #1542  
Old 09-07-2007, 12:19 PM
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Wales is a Principality that is part of Britain. There's a Welsh nationality at a push but there isn't such thing as Wales the country.
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  #1543  
Old 09-07-2007, 05:41 PM
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Scotland, Wales, and Northern Ireland are all part of the UK. All three of them have separatist movements. They all used to be independent countries (although the territories weren't always the same over time because of feuding claims, but that's also the case for the early English territories), even though Wales had ruling princes rather than kings. Principalities and Grand Duchies are countries just the same as kingdoms. Part of the problem in Wales, and the reason why the separatist movement isn't just a few extremists any more, is the perception that the English attitude to Wales is one of pretty much open contempt. When the Prince of Wales prefers to spend his holidays in Scotland, when his wealth comes from the Duchy of Cornwall, when his son takes on a position at the Welsh Rugby Union while being an avowed England fan, and when the Prince himself talked about a prospective bride and said he'd like her to be English and then had to add a very insincere "or maybe Welsh" or whatever it was, it becomes very relevant to ask exactly what is the point of continuing this "Prince of Wales" stuff.
  #1544  
Old 09-07-2007, 05:50 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Elspeth View Post
Scotland, Wales, and Northern Ireland are all part of the UK. All three of them have separatist movements. They all used to be independent countries (although the territories weren't always the same over time because of feuding claims, but that's also the case for the early English territories), even though Wales had ruling princes rather than kings. Principalities and Grand Duchies are countries just the same as kingdoms. Part of the problem in Wales, and the reason why the separatist movement isn't just a few extremists any more, is the perception that the English attitude to Wales is one of pretty much open contempt. When the Prince of Wales prefers to spend his holidays in Scotland, when his wealth comes from the Duchy of Cornwall, when his son takes on a position at the Welsh Rugby Union while being an avowed England fan, and when the Prince himself talked about a prospective bride and said he'd like her to be English and then had to add a very insincere "or maybe Welsh" or whatever it was, it becomes very relevant to ask exactly what is the point of continuing this "Prince of Wales" stuff.
Ergo Wales is a country and your assessment is very astute. The contempt was shown when it was said that they weren't a country. Seems to me they are an occupied country, that is getting to dislike that fact.
  #1545  
Old 09-07-2007, 07:39 PM
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Originally Posted by jcbcode99 View Post
Posted by Chrissy:
As far as I am aware there has been no open discussion of this particular issue but there certainly is growing Welsh nationalism and having a Prince of Wales who is actually English doesn't sit well with some Welsh.

So, this discussion about ending the Prince of Wales title is based on "some Welsh" individuals? It is part of a movement that really doesn't have much momemtum, in fact, there is very little info at all out there about the Welsh Nationalism Movement. I don't really have an opinion about Welsh Nationalism--I actually think that the whole thing has merit, actually.but I find it difficult to fathom that "some Welsh" are going to change a hereditary title that has been used since the 1200's. As I have said, if I understand it, the Welsh Nationalism Movement was formed to preserve the history of Wales and once again, regardless of the title's history, the Prince of Wales is a valuable commodity in Wales. I cannot see Wales deliberately pushing that away. Perhaps the next Prince of Wales could be even more involved in Wales--perhaps if there is more of a presence there will be less talk of this.

The Prince of Wales title is NOT an hereditary title. It has to be created anew for each holder. Charles had to wait 6 years before getting that title.

Welsh Nationalism is a very real thing. It may not have the support of the majority of Welsh people but it does exist.

As for Wales being a country please note that in things like the current Rugby World Cup, the Commonwealth Games, the Football World Cup, Wales competes as a separate country to that of England, Scotland, Ireland (compete as one country in Rugby but as two in Football). Even the controlling body of English cricket is called the English and WELSH cricket board (with both Scotland and Ireland having separate boards and competing separately at the Cricket World Cup). The Welsh that I have spoken to definitely see themselves as different to the English.
  #1546  
Old 09-07-2007, 08:33 PM
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You are quite right--the title is not hereditary and that was a poor use of words on my part. It is a title that is traditionallly granted to the heir apparent or the reigning monarch of the UK. So, it is not hereditary but it is based on lineage and thusly bestowing the title is a long, time honored tradition filled with its own history.
I don't believe I said that Welsh Nationalism did not exist; I said it was a movement that does not have a great deal of support based on the lack of information I was able to obtain on the topic. As you said yourself, "it may not have the support of the majority of Welsh people, but it does exist". That is exactly what I am saying--it is a movement with not a lot of support, which the majority of the Welsh people (to my knowledge) do not support. The small amount of information I found on the topic discussed that Welsh Nationalism seeks to preserve the history of Wales, and my point is that the Prince of Wales has been part of the history of Wales since the 1200's. I understand that Wales is a country, that they have their own customs, opinions, and ideas. Those should be respected and encouraged. I just think that it would be a mistake to no longer have a Prince of Wales.
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  #1547  
Old 09-07-2007, 11:27 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jcbcode99 View Post
You are quite right--the title is not hereditary and that was a poor use of words on my part. It is a title that is traditionallly granted to the heir apparent or the reigning monarch of the UK. So, it is not hereditary but it is based on lineage and thusly bestowing the title is a long, time honored tradition filled with its own history.
I don't believe I said that Welsh Nationalism did not exist; I said it was a movement that does not have a great deal of support based on the lack of information I was able to obtain on the topic. As you said yourself, "it may not have the support of the majority of Welsh people, but it does exist". That is exactly what I am saying--it is a movement with not a lot of support, which the majority of the Welsh people (to my knowledge) do not support. The small amount of information I found on the topic discussed that Welsh Nationalism seeks to preserve the history of Wales, and my point is that the Prince of Wales has been part of the history of Wales since the 1200's. I understand that Wales is a country, that they have their own customs, opinions, and ideas. Those should be respected and encouraged. I just think that it would be a mistake to no longer have a Prince of Wales.

To Welsh Nationalists however having an ENGLISH Prince of Wales is a problem. They see it as a sign of their oppression and subjugation by the English for the last 800 or so years. Rather than seeing it as part of their heritage Welsh nationalists see it as the opposite - a sign of the loss of heritage in the 1200s when they last had a truly WELSH Prince of Wales.
  #1548  
Old 09-08-2007, 12:17 AM
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To Welsh Nationalists however having an ENGLISH Prince of Wales is a problem. They see it as a sign of their oppression and subjugation by the English for the last 800 or so years. Rather than seeing it as part of their heritage Welsh nationalists see it as the opposite - a sign of the loss of heritage in the 1200s when they last had a truly WELSH Prince of Wales.
And not just the extremists, either. Between the way Edward I ended any real chance of Wales being seen as a separate entity but went down in history as the Hammer of the Scots, as though destroying Wales was unimportant, and the recent political history where Welsh interests have been consistently ignored by Parliament, there isn't a heck of a lot of love lost between a lot of Welsh people and the English. I was born in Wales and raised there for a while before we moved to England, and my English mother was a lot more disliked by many of the natives than my middle-European Jewish father. And the feeling was thoroughly mutual; she had the typical English superiority complex toward the Welsh.

The fact that the current royal family seems pretty much disengaged from Wales isn't helping. Prince Charles's stint at Aberystwyth University was seen as a sort of sop to the tiresome Welsh, who had the almighty nerve to expect him to make more of his Prince of Wales name than just have a signet ring with three feathers on it. Yet it was reported in the press as though he'd had to go through this massive inconvenience for the sake of these ungrateful nonentities when he could have been doing so many greater things at Cambridge. And then people wonder why he isn't acclaimed in Wales as one of their own. He's carrying on the centuries-old tradition of being an English prince who's been imposed on the Welsh to let them know how low they are in the pecking order.
  #1549  
Old 09-08-2007, 01:31 AM
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Nor does it help that until about six months ago, Charles didn't own any property in Wales. C+C go there for about a week or so once a year. His sons never learned Welsh. C+C, when they aren't in England, go to Scotland. The Scottish locals say C+C have made a genuine effort in geting involved in the local community. It is a pity this hasn't been done in Wales. It could help a bit. Hopefully since they bought that property they might start to spend a bit more time in Wales. IMO one of Charles' failings has been his neglect of Wales particuarly his best title is Prince of Wales
  #1550  
Old 09-08-2007, 12:22 PM
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Aha--the light bulb has turned on. I had, erronously, but naturally, assumed that a Prince of Wales would be involved in Wales--and apparently, that is not the case at all. I would have thought that the Prince of Wales would have a strong presence in Wales, rather than just the holder of the title.And, I find that troubling--especially the bit about University and never learning Welsh--that is a bit of a slap in face.
Have all the Princes of Wales been as lackadasical as Charles? As many of you know, I adore Charles, but I am very disappointed in him right now. Perhaps Camilla was quite wise to take the Duchess of Cornwall title over that of Princess of Wales!
Perhaps rather than do away with the title, the Welsh could demand that stipulations be attached to the title. The PoW has no real duties--he's just the heir apparent and sort of creates his own responsibilities--Charles, for example undertakes royal duties in support of HM, does the charity thing, etc...Perhaps if it could be decreed, made law, etc....that the holder of the Prince of Wales title must take on and fulfill certain duties in Wales each year and promote the Welsh in a positive manner, then it would become a win-win situation that would be beneficial to all. Frankly, I am very surprised that such an agreement is not already in place. The Queen can't be Queen without fulfilling her roles and duties--the Prince of Wales should have duties as well. Charles obviously has a strong Scottish connection (he grandmother was Scottish, after all), he should be equally connected to all the countries--England, Ireland, Scotland and Wales. It seems ridiculous that he is not. I always assumed that he had official duties to each country. It appears that I was very wrong.
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  #1551  
Old 09-08-2007, 02:26 PM
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Now I am slightly confused. Charles speaks Welsh, he learned it that summer at that University in Wales before they did that ceremony that Lord Snowden stage managed that proclaimed him POW. He still does speak it. He did on the last tour.

The only thing I said was his sons don't speak it.
  #1552  
Old 09-08-2007, 03:25 PM
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I misread that--but I did just do a little research and discovered that Charles studied Welsh and Welsh history when he was at The University of Wales. His intention was to learn the Welsh language, and was the first English born Prince of Wales to ever attempt to do so. I, personally, think that was both impressive and appropriate.
Perhaps William speaks some Welsh--I would imagine his father has taught him a little. Since Charles felt it was important to learn Welsh (and still speaks it) then I am certain that he feels that it is equally important that his son, the future Prince of Wales, learn it also.
So, Charles has made some overtures that his predecessors have not. Perhaps William will do so as well.
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  #1553  
Old 09-08-2007, 05:59 PM
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He learned enough Welsh to get by in a scripted speech; whether he learned enough to get by in a conversation is another matter entirely. Mind you, it's a fiendish language for an English speaker to learn, especially as an adult, but it did seem as though his one term at Aberystwyth was basically window dressing. It was a time when Welsh nationalism was rather strident (not helped by the forced relocation a couple of years earlier of a village full of people in central Wales so the whole valley could be flooded to provide water for an English town), and I think it highly likely that the Queen might have been advised that if Prince Charles was going to be paraded at Caernarvon in an investiture as Prince of Wales, it might be a very good idea if he spent a couple of months at a university there, learning a couple of things about the country and the language and making it appear that he actually gave a damn about the place. Since he's made very little attempt since then to put down any roots in Wales or emphasise his connection with it in any way (unlike the way he's nurtured his Duchy of Cornwall connections and unlike the way he runs up to Scotland every chance he gets), I think it's fairly safe to assume that the term at Aberystwyth university was just a necessary evil as far as he was concerned, and that he was being used as a pawn by politicians anxious not to have the investiture turn into a major anti-English demonstration.
  #1554  
Old 09-19-2007, 05:47 AM
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I find it very interesting that various memebers of this site can have such strident opinions on a person that they most likely do not know personally, nor have a reasoned view of the 'type' of life that people like Pce Charles lead.Just imagine for a minute never being able to decide on a career move, a friendship or an outing without having to consider the wider ramifications. No wonder the D.of Edinburgh called it' this bloody royalty jiggery pokery!' poor them!
  #1555  
Old 09-19-2007, 03:25 PM
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Originally Posted by Duke of Thora View Post
I find it very interesting that various memebers of this site can have such strident opinions on a person that they most likely do not know personally, nor have a reasoned view of the 'type' of life that people like Pce Charles lead.Just imagine for a minute never being able to decide on a career move, a friendship or an outing without having to consider the wider ramifications. No wonder the D.of Edinburgh called it' this bloody royalty jiggery pokery!' poor them!
All you said mean no reason not to discuss about the future King of Britain.
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  #1556  
Old 09-19-2007, 05:27 PM
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Hardly to be pitied. They never have to earn any money, they are given houses and servants, yes, they always have the public scrutiny, but that's their job. There is nothing to feel sorry for. They could give it up and take a job in a bank. It would be a whole harder life. All people have to think of the ramifications of their actions. They just may not make the newspaper. Prince Philip should be the last to complain, he has lived very comfortably, with a woman who loves him and basically does what he wants. When he married into this "terrible" life he didn't have two nickels to rub together. Charles is somewhat the product of Philip's idea of upbringing. He hated the schools his father chose and never was his favorite received very little affection from him, Charles' words not mine. Charles will be king, because he is the heir, all else is silly.
  #1557  
Old 10-02-2007, 01:46 AM
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If Charles abdicates at any stage, what will his and Camilla's titles be? They would cease being Duke & Duchess of Cornwall, as that title is reserved for the eldest son of the monarch, correct?
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  #1558  
Old 10-02-2007, 01:53 AM
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Originally Posted by JessRulz View Post
If Charles abdicates at any stage, what will his and Camilla's titles be? They would cease being Duke & Duchess of Cornwall, as that title is reserved for the eldest son of the monarch, correct?
They'd find a title for him somewhere. Probably not Duke of Windsor, that has too much baggage attached. He'd be Duke of N and she'd be the Duchess of N.
  #1559  
Old 10-02-2007, 03:01 AM
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I would be in favor in Duke & Duchess of Windsor for Charles & Camilla. It certainly would be fitting considering the similar circumstances.
  #1560  
Old 10-02-2007, 03:03 AM
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Originally Posted by RubyPrincess168 View Post
I would be in favor in Duke & Duchess of Windsor for Charles & Camilla. It certainly would be fitting considering the similar circumstances.
Except for the fact that Charles married before his accession with the full approval of the Queen, Church, and government and has met no legal opposition and would see no reason to abdicate due to Camilla. Yes, very similar.
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