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  #1221  
Old 02-04-2007, 02:47 AM
Roslyn's Avatar
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Elspeth
England has an Established Church, not a state religion. Don't ask me what the difference is, but apparently it's significant in some way that the CofE is the Established Church and not the Official Church.
Had a quick look at Wiki, and I still can't see any difference.

Established Church - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

"In English history, the Established Church is the Church of England, the church which is established by the Government, supported by it, and of which the monarch is the titular head.."

"In a more general sense, the Established Church is the church officially sanctioned and supported by the government of a country.."

State religion - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

"A state religion (also called an official religion, established church or state church) is a religious body or creed officially endorsed by the state."

"State religions are examples of the official or government-sanctioned establishment of religion, as distinct from theocracy."

There could well be some distinction that's significant to some, but I don't think I care enough to spend any more time on the subject, particularly since my attention is wandering to the new Bougainvillea I want to repot before nightfall.
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  #1222  
Old 02-07-2007, 10:46 PM
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"Defender Of The Faith" certainly seems to have lost its meaning over a very short period of time. Less than a century ago, we wouldn't have been having this debate at all. We wouldn't dare!
I agree with comments made earlier that we are a much more self centered generation.
It would appear that 400 years of tradition, countless executions, wars and sacrifice made in it's name were for nothing. This generation forgets all too quickly.

But I'm not gonna start that again. Anything I say will most certainly be deleted!

Aside from this major little problem, Charles will make a great King. He certainly won't abdicate and neither will the Queen. The Queen sees abdication as a dereliction of duty, as she was brought up in the wake of the scandalous abdication of her uncle. I would imagine she has firmly passed this belief on to Charles.
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  #1223  
Old 02-08-2007, 06:38 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Queen Marie
We wouldn't dare!
I agree with comments made earlier that we are a much more self centered generation.
It would appear that 400 years of tradition, countless executions, wars and sacrifice made in it's name were for nothing. This generation forgets all too quickly.
Executions, wars and sacrifice, no wonder Charles wants to move away from that, what a glowing example, hardly something to be proud of?

There are many instances of todays generation being self centered, more than that, most people are now more aware.

I don't believe that Charles need to be religious in any way, to be a good King, perhaps it is time to remove defender of ??? from the ceremony altogether.
  #1224  
Old 02-08-2007, 03:28 PM
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Quote:
I don't believe that Charles need to be religious in any way, to be a good King, perhaps it is time to remove defender of ??? from the ceremony altogether.
Would the CofE need to be disestablished before they could do that?
  #1225  
Old 02-08-2007, 04:02 PM
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I wouldn't have thought so, but it would not be the end of the world!

The CoE was disestablished in Wales in 1920, but The Queen is still their rightful monarch.

There is great hope from those who want it disestablished, with the current moves from the government to have elected representatives in the Lords, based on the American system. That would surely remove the Bishops.
  #1226  
Old 02-10-2007, 03:38 AM
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< ed comments responding to previous now-deleted post - Warren >.

This is the 21st century, Charles should be a King for ALL people in England, even those who are not Anglican. He should serve, protect and defend ALL people in England, not just those who are Anglican. To say that he is only defending one group of people, only serving one group of people is to deny that other people exist within the realm. I don't see that making much sense, to be perfectly frank.
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  #1227  
Old 02-10-2007, 07:58 AM
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He won't be defending one group of people - he will be defending a faith.

Because a monarch professes a faith does not mean he/she cannot be a king/queen for all people.
  #1228  
Old 02-10-2007, 08:10 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Avareenah
He won't be defending one group of people - he will be defending a faith.
Because a monarch professes a faith does not mean he/she cannot be a king/queen for all people.
If he is defending a faith, that means he will be unable to defend those that do not have that particular faith. There are vast differences between many faiths and the coronation ceremony should be changed to include all people, with or without a faith.
  #1229  
Old 02-10-2007, 08:21 AM
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That does not mean that at all -- an example: British Catholics -- do they feel the Queen is not theirs because she is aligned to the Church of England? Of course not.
  #1230  
Old 02-10-2007, 10:04 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Avareenah
That does not mean that at all -- an example: British Catholics -- do they feel the Queen is not theirs because she is aligned to the Church of England? Of course not.
So if Charles were to say he was the defender of the druids, you would be OK with that and feel that he was able to represent you.
As a defender of the faith, HM is unable to represent or speak for many of her subjects. She has been unable to reflect the changes in family unit's across the UK. The faith still denies some, (not all), divorced people the right to remarry in a church, dependent upon the whim of the local vicar.
Times, customs and the world has moved on since this vow was introduced, IMO, it is now time for Charles to have the chance to move on as well.
  #1231  
Old 02-10-2007, 04:52 PM
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Skydragon, the English monarch simply cannot "represent" all faiths. This is not possible. I am quite happy with the way things are now. If I am a Roman Catholic, I can still be a loyal subject of the Queen (or Charles later) even though Pope Benedict is the head of my church, not the Queen.

The bottom line is that the Queen is not a religious leader.

Because the monarch professes a particular faith doesn't mean that she necessarily has to say that she believes in all others, attends their ceremonies etc. Again, impossible. But that doesn't say other faiths are dismissed as if they don't count. They are respectfully acknowledged and attempts are made to build bridges so that those of all faiths can live harmoniously together and accept the different belief systems we have. This is happening now, though it is a new and gradual process.
  #1232  
Old 02-10-2007, 05:55 PM
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The Queen is Defender of the Faith at the moment because we have an Established Church. Seems to me that as long as we continue to have an Established Church, that makes the monarch Defender of the Faith regardless of how many faiths he might have sympathy with. If there's no Established Church, he has no business calling himself Defender of anything to do with religious faith.
  #1233  
Old 02-13-2007, 05:56 PM
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Hmm, well I agree with most of you (who've replied recently) somehow or the other I have a feeling, though, that Charles probably wants that title because he doesn't want to be perceived by the public as someone who only represents the interests of a particular group of the nation. The reality probably is that there are probably some who feel this way & maybe Charles knows about that and even if people don't feel that way now, there's always the possibility of that happening in the future - maybe he just wants to "get with the times" a bit more.

To the person who said "The bottom line is that the Queen is not a religious leader." the last time I checked, the Queen was the head of the Church of England, which, for all intents and purposes, could be taken to mean she is the religious leader whom all branches/members of that church answer to (theoretically speaking of course).

That does complicate things I guess because the title "defender of the faith" refers to the head of the Church of England and to change it, is ... well ... lets just say that the Head of the Church of England can't suddenly become the head of all religious faiths ... that's why I say Charles probably just wants people to know he represents them regardless of what religion they belong to.
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  #1234  
Old 02-13-2007, 06:14 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kat
the last time I checked, the Queen was the head of the Church of England, which, for all intents and purposes, could be taken to mean she is the religious leader whom all branches/members of that church answer to (theoretically speaking of course).
Supreme Governor, actually, not head. And certainly not religious leader, more a secular position. The Archbishop of Canterbury is the religious head, he is:
"Primate of All England
The Archbishop has this title in recognition of his lead ecclesiastical role in England. ... He is regarded as the nation’s senior Christian and spiritual voice." Archbishop of Canterbury | Roles of the archbishop
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  #1235  
Old 02-13-2007, 06:37 PM
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I dont know if we´ll see a crown on his head. I feel pity for him. he will have a short time as king, compared to his mother, and he will be the one between a great queen and the son of people´s princess. And if he doesnt become king he will be the Prince that all is life waited.
  #1236  
Old 02-13-2007, 10:12 PM
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I think William will want to carve out his own image as a young man and as King one day rather than be a reflection of his parents. Elizabeth II was a devoted daughter to George VI and Queen Elizabeth but I doubt if at 80 she wants to be known as Bertie's and Elizabeth's little girl.
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  #1237  
Old 02-14-2007, 01:28 PM
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I Agree Ysbel :) Let him forge his own Identity
  #1238  
Old 02-14-2007, 02:48 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by avrilo
I dont know if we´ll see a crown on his head. I feel pity for him. he will have a short time as king, compared to his mother, and he will be the one between a great queen and the son of people´s princess. And if he doesnt become king he will be the Prince that all is life waited.
As we all know the peoples princess title was invented by Alistair Campbell for Tony Blair and whilst it may have stuck in some peoples minds, I would hope that most people have realised William was not the result of an immaculate conception!
It is worth remembering that even if Charles is only King for a short time, the impact he has already made as the Prince of Wales, added to that, will be appreciated by some and not by others.
IMO, even if he only reigns for 10 years, it will be a memorable reign!
  #1239  
Old 02-14-2007, 03:02 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Skydragon
As we all know the peoples princess title was invented by Alistair Campbell for Tony Blair and whilst it may have stuck in some peoples minds, I would hope that most people have realised William was not the result of an immaculate conception!
It is worth remembering that even if Charles is only King for a short time, the impact he has already made as the Prince of Wales, added to that, will be appreciated by some and not by others.
IMO, even if he only reigns for 10 years, it will be a memorable reign!
Well yes that is a possibility but also HM might out live her son. And William could become King after the Queen. I think willam's reign along with his grandmother's will be more memorable.
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  #1240  
Old 02-14-2007, 03:11 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sirhon11234
Well yes that is a possibility but also HM might out live her son. And William could become King after the Queen. I think willam's reign along with his grandmother's will be more memorable.
It may be YOUR dream sirhon, but i´m sure that this will not happen.
The next King will be Charles, and he will be a great one!
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