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  #1341  
Old 11-28-2008, 08:51 AM
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The tradition of bestowing the title of Prince of Wales on the heir to the (English) throne began in 1301 with Edward I.
To put it in perspective, Diana carried the title in one form or another for just 17 years.
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  #1342  
Old 11-28-2008, 10:03 AM
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Originally Posted by Warren View Post
The tradition of bestowing the title of Prince of Wales on the heir to the (English) throne began in 1301 with Edward I.
To put it in perspective, Diana carried the title in one form or another for just 17 years.
Yes, but the Welsh resent the use of this title since 1301, as their last Prince of Wales Davvyydd was drawn and quartered after having been relieved of his male organs before the title was bestowed by the successful king of England on his heir.
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  #1343  
Old 11-28-2008, 01:55 PM
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I hope you don't take me too seriously about the "show me the money" thing,Sky! We don't see eye to eye because we are in very different vibrations, but I certainly meant that comment only in fun!!!!!
I know sometimes people on the TRF can fall into the trap of taking things too seriously so from time to time I try to inject some fun! It's only fun, so no hidden innuendos, I promise!

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Originally Posted by Skydragon View Post
Meow!
I don't believe that Diana would ever have remarried and therefore lose the title. The Princess of Wales title was Dianas, purely because of who she married.
I believe Diana might have invested her sense of worth in being "The Princess of Wales," and she seemed to think the diminishing of her outward social status would equate the diminishing of her self estimation of her value in the world. It's very sad, but because Diana was chronically insecure, she compensated (so I believe, from my spiritual studies) for that sense of being "stupid" (and other things) by manipulating people and seeking outward signs of self-importance. Doing this made her feel strong, powerful, beautiful, and worthy of love. She was a "bully" literally to "bully" people to love her, to know that she did all this "valuable" work in the world and she was "something"! That is what I believe, anyway. I feel very sad for Diana. She seemed to be deeply misguided in most of her actions.
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If Charles becomes King within the next 2 years or so, IF William marries, then Charles may decide to give William the Prince of Wales title, but there are no guarantees.

It is rather silly if you think about it, nobody wails about the next monarch 'taking the place of' the previous one, nobody will knash their teeth if William is made Prince of Wales, (apart from the Welsh), with a 'but that was Charles title'. So why should there be a problem with the Princess of Wales title, either for Camilla or Williams possible future wife?
There is no problem with any of it. But just as there are people in the world unreasonably attached to things (titles, status, achievements, money, power) here you see some people unreasonably attached to Diana's memory. It is easy to attach to things and symbols. Most people attach to something in a strong, even (but not always) unreasonable way. Let them be. Everyone is on a unique journey. Here again I think of respect: respect for people's own evolution. Try to avoid the trap of trying to "make" or convince people to see things as you see it.

I like you, Sky. You're cool.
  #1344  
Old 11-29-2008, 02:06 PM
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Originally Posted by Jo of Palatine View Post
As you can see here, the very first title for Charles probably was His Royal Highness Prince Charles, Earl of Merioneth.

Letters Patent 22 October 1948

In the letters patent his father is referred to as HRH Prince Philip, Duke of Edinburgh and his mother HRH Princess Elizabeth, Duchess of Edinburgh. It doesn't mention any other title for the children of said marriage than Royal Highness and the prefix prince/princess. Thus Charles surely was known by his father's secondary title, as I don't think "Duke of Edinburgh" was a Royal Dukedom such as "York", like the ones given to a son of the souverain. If so, Chrles would have been HRH prince Charles of Edinburgh?
His grandfather's letters patent granted Charles and his siblings the style of Royal Highness and Prince/Princess of the UK, a distinction that took precedence over any courtesy style by birth as the children of a Duke.

He was always and only "HRH Prince Charles of Edinburgh" until his mother became Queen. At that point, he was automatically The Duke of Cornwall in England and The Duke of Rothesay in Scotland as the eldest son and heir to the throne. In 1958, The Queen created him Prince of Wales and Earl of Chester.
  #1345  
Old 11-29-2008, 02:16 PM
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Wasn't Charles crowned Prince of Wales in the late 60s?
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  #1346  
Old 11-29-2008, 02:34 PM
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He was created Prince of Wales in 1958. His formal investiture as Prince of Wales was held in 1969.
  #1347  
Old 11-29-2008, 07:37 PM
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Originally Posted by Skydragon View Post
It is rather silly if you think about it, nobody wails about the next monarch 'taking the place of' the previous one, nobody will knash their teeth if William is made Prince of Wales, (apart from the Welsh)
  #1348  
Old 11-29-2008, 10:34 PM
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Originally Posted by Vecchiolarry View Post
Hi CasiraghiTrio,

Dear Ashley -
Yes, I agree with you that we should all call Camilla by whatever title she approves....
But, my wish is that she, herself, or the Royal Household would want her to be called by her 'senior title'...
It just doesn't "look right" to me that he is 'Prince of Wales' and she is 'Duchess of Cornwall' - - it all appears so very morganatic!!!
And, we are told that morganatic doesn't exist in British law....

I'd have a lot more respect for her and him if they just came out and announced that she would now be called The Princess of Wales. And, the 'Diana camp' be damned!!
Or better still - - have The Queen announce it....

Just my humble opinion!!

Larry
Nicely said
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  #1349  
Old 11-30-2008, 12:06 AM
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Originally Posted by Jacknch View Post
What would people think if within say the next two years Charles becomes king, William becomes Prince of Wales and marries Kate Middleton and she then becomes Princess of Wales - will people forever associate the Princess of Wales title with Diana?

I don't think when or if the titles, Prince and Princess of Wales, are used by Prince William and his wife they will have any problems from the British people that Camilla, the Duchess of Cornwall would have.

Prince William's wife will be compared to Diana, the Princess of Wales, but her past is different from the Duchess and the British people will accept the title for her. I only think the title is off limits to the Duchess of Cornwall because of the mistress problem.

I really believe that Camilla with be Queen if the crowning happens a while from now.
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  #1350  
Old 11-30-2008, 08:23 PM
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Originally Posted by georgiea View Post
I don't think when or if the titles, Prince and Princess of Wales, are used by Prince William and his wife they will have any problems from the British people that Camilla, the Duchess of Cornwall would have.

Prince William's wife will be compared to Diana, the Princess of Wales, but her past is different from the Duchess and the British people will accept the title for her. I only think the title is off limits to the Duchess of Cornwall because of the mistress problem.
Exactly. ITA^^^
  #1351  
Old 11-30-2008, 09:52 PM
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Quote:
I'd have a lot more respect for her and him if they just came out and announced that she would now be called The Princess of Wales.
It's admirable to make a decision and stick by it, I'd have thought...

To suggest the Duchess now, after 3 or so years, be officially known as Princess of Wales is, imo, a particularly rediculous motion. Infact, it would make them look like fools, and it's quite easy for someone on the outer to propose such a move, when it infact would bear no consequence on them.

It is relatively clear from your above statement that public approval is something you yourself don't have to contend with, like most of us here, I'm sure.

The 'issue' is not what title(s) she holds, inherently by way of marriage, but the title by which she is known.

For all concerned, not least of all for Camilla herself, the appropriate choice was made. One could not begin to fathom the pressure and press she'd have received if she were to have used the Princely title, whether hers to use or not. Any real chance of 'making it her own' (her role), would have been all but ruined from the get go. It's hardly fair in many ways, but never before had their been a situation such as theirs, and so scrupulously publicized at that.
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  #1352  
Old 11-30-2008, 11:37 PM
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Originally Posted by Madame Royale View Post

never before had their been a situation such as theirs, and so scrupulously publicized at that.
Truer words were never spoken on this thread.

I do think that what VeccioLarry was saying, which I applauded, was that opting to have Camilla to "be known as" HRH The Duchess of Cornwall was basically just leaving the door open for her "to be known as" HRH The Princess Consort. I do think that protocal should have been maintained--regardless of situation. After all, I am a second wife, and go by "Mrs. John Doe". Imagine if, because my husband's family or our local townspeople had decided that I was just horrible and not as good as my husband's ex-wife, that I had to be known by a different name. I just don't find it to be fair--regardless of whether or not it was the most practical thing to do at the time.
However, I have said in previous posts that I do think that giving Camilla the option to be HRH The Duchess of Cornwall gave her an immeasurable opportunity to create an identity seperate from Diana, which has been quite successful. I think that the title of "Duchess" suits her quite well; in my opinion, Princess would not suit Camilla. I'm sure she would wear it well and with grace and dignity, but she has taken this not often used title of Duchess of Cornwall and really created something just for her. And, if Charles does decide that out of deference for Wales to no longer allow the use of the title, then Camilla would have been a trendsetter in some ways as well. However, I would prefer that she be known as HM Queen Camilla rather than HRH The Princess Consort--simple because I do think that she deserves the honor.
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  #1353  
Old 12-01-2008, 02:56 AM
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The question about "deserving" the honour:

lately we had some articles which brought up information about Queen Mum that have previously appeared in reknown biographies by Bradford and Brandreth, so seem to be true, at least to a certain extent.

In it is claimed that Queen Mum had strong prejudices and acted on them and that she treated prince Philip like a "mother-in-law from hell" while using her influence on the then still young Elizabeth to stay the force behind the throne - using her influence to her own advantage or against other people like poor Wallis Windsor.

Still noone would say that somebody with such a sometimes nasty behaviour should not have been Her Majesty as she didn't deserve this honour. We don't know much about Camilla but the rare first-hand information about what she does and what she says shows a person who does not have vindictive character traits - vindictiveness always backfires, IMHO and we would know by now. IMHO it shows how deep the respect and reference Queen Mum could install in people has been that only now people start to tell more about the "Iron Fist" in her velvet gloves they experienced and witnessed. But still people started to talk and they would have talked about Camilla if there was something to tell by now.
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  #1354  
Old 12-01-2008, 03:16 AM
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I agree with everything above except "poor Wallis Windsor" she was not a person to be pitied, she took the King of England and turned him into a performing circus dog that did nothing but wait on her every whim and go to parties and design jewellery for her. From the moment he met her he never seemed to be able to think for himself.
She, in turn, never in her whole life quite "got" what a "King of England" was.

Queen Consort Camilla, of course, what other title could there be for her when her husband comes to the throne? I definitely agree that they should have come out with the title Princess of Wales when she married the Prince, the Diana myth should be forgotten as quickly as possible. A beautiful young woman who nearly caused the fall of the RF, in fact very much as Wallis did.
  #1355  
Old 12-01-2008, 03:32 AM
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Quote:
I do think that what VeccioLarry was saying, which I applauded, was that opting to have Camilla to "be known as" HRH The Duchess of Cornwall was basically just leaving the door open for her "to be known as" HRH The Princess Consort.
And as that seems to be their intent (at the present time), then they have gone about 'the' business in an appropriate manner.

Quote:
I do think that protocal should have been maintained--regardless of situation.
Alas, it's easy for us to say such things but in actuality, the implementation of protocol is, and has, been detemined not solely by the pages of history from which they were observed, but by the circumstances which sourround the institution (those who make it) of the day. Things change, and on occasion that means protocol, aswell.

Quote:
After all, I am a second wife, and go by "Mrs. John Doe". Imagine if, because my husband's family or our local townspeople had decided that I was just horrible and not as good as my husband's ex-wife, that I had to be known by a different name.
A different name? It is but a 'name' her husband holds and so is not so dissimilar afterall. She remains Princess of Wales; it's just not her primal title in an official capacity.

Quote:
I just don't find it to be fair--regardless of whether or not it was the most practical thing to do at the time.
Whether deemed practical by some and impractical by others, it is what it is and was done for a reason. A reason that clearly needed an unprecedented alternative, as seen in the best interests of those concerned and dare I say, the monarchy.

Quote:
However, I have said in previous posts that I do think that giving Camilla the option to be HRH The Duchess of Cornwall gave her an immeasurable opportunity to create an identity seperate from Diana, which has been quite successful.
Absolutely! It was the right move to have been made, imo.

Quote:
but she has taken this not often used title of Duchess of Cornwall and really created something just for her.
As I'm sure would be the case if she were created Princess Consort.

Quote:
And, if Charles does decide that out of deference for Wales to no longer allow the use of the title, then Camilla would have been a trendsetter in some ways as well.
In a matter of speaking, yes.

Quote:
However, I would prefer that she be known as HM Queen Camilla rather than HRH The Princess Consort--simple because I do think that she deserves the honor.
We know...hehe...
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  #1356  
Old 12-01-2008, 04:56 AM
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I agree with everything above except "poor Wallis Windsor" she was not a person to be pitied,
I don't think that The Duke and Duchess of Windsor were treated properly by the RF, there was quite some spite involved and as historians have proved, a lot of it came directly from Queen Mum, with the establishment following her lead. So when it comes to that, IMHO Wallis Windsor was "poor Wallis".
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  #1357  
Old 12-01-2008, 05:27 AM
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Wallis was nice to the Queen Mother?
They were as different as chalk and cheese, a worldly adventurer and a well brought up Scottish/English Lady. The Queen mother knew that it would be a terrible strain on her husband being King, it was a nightmare for him just to make a speech because of his voice impediment. As she said, she had had a nice life until Wallis appeared, she was perfectly satisfied being the Duchess of York.
I think that we are inclined to forget at the time Wallis was being considered by Edward to be the future Queen of England she was still a married woman and her husband was still very much in her life. Documents have been disclosed recently that say she was being investigated and it is said that she had another lover at the same time as Edward. When Edward ,on her advice, became King, he was cutting down on expenditure such as hand soap and beer for his workers, but he was spending a fortune on jewellery for Wallis (which was probably not her fault).
A friend of mine was the daughter of Mrs Belloc Lowndes the author, who remarked when she saw Wallis at the theatre that she thought Wallis┤s jewels were so many and so big, that they were probably false, she was shocked to find they weren┤t.
I am sorry this is getting off the subject of Camilla but I really feel that Wallis is not deserving of any sympathy from anyone. Her main support was her aunt Bessie Merrieweather, both money and moral but she was soon left behind.....she did send her a birthday cake for her 100th birthday though.
The Queen mother may not have been the sweet old lady that the public thought but if she didn┤t like Wallis she certainly had her reasons and not all of us are sweet all the time, she had her public fašade and it worked.
Hearing about her debts after her death was what surprised me most.
So that this isn┤t completely off rail. Camilla will be Queen, I never though I would say this but I really think she will do very well.
  #1358  
Old 12-01-2008, 05:47 AM
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I do not think there was anything wrong in the QM maintaining the image she had, or that there was anything conradictory with the image. She played the perfect Queen - always gracious in public, aware of her duty to the realm, but also aware of the constitutional constraints of her role. There was certainly a role for her - and there was a reason for Hitler referring to her as the most dangerous woman in Europe.

As regards debts at the end of her life, I think it is fair to say that expenses / cash liquidity etc were not issues that she was concerned about in her last decade or so. Her household was run in a style she was accustomed to, and thats what she had. I don't know of many 101 year olds who typically worry about radically altering their life styles. Her estate was sufficient to cover any overdrafts that may have been run up. I just hold the belief that when people get very old, it is for their children and grandchildren to take care of hem. In this case, they did, by letting her lifestyle not be affected by her dwindling cash resources.
  #1359  
Old 12-01-2008, 05:56 AM
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Queen Elizabeth, the Queen Mother, lived the life she had always lived and expected to live and that is how it should be for someone who was Queen of England.
  #1360  
Old 12-01-2008, 06:44 AM
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Originally Posted by muriel View Post
I don't know of many 101 year olds who typically worry about radically altering their life styles. Her estate was sufficient to cover any overdrafts that may have been run up. I just hold the belief that when people get very old, it is for their children and grandchildren to take care of hem. In this case, they did, by letting her lifestyle not be affected by her dwindling cash resources.
If you don't know of many 101 year olds or even 80 years olds that have to radically alter their lifestyle, I suggest you go and see some of the folk at Age Concern, they have no option but to live according to the money in their purse!
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