Title for Camilla

[MARG]

I am in complete agreement with you on this one Iluvbertie. I never cease to be amazed at the continuing flow of "reasons" and "reasoning" that have only one agenda.

I respect the honest views of those who do not wish to see Camilla crowned as Charles Queen. I loath convoluted bafflegab used by those less open in their opinion in an attempt to obfuscate the point.

 

[scooter]

I understand your argument but can't agree for the following reason:

A woman always takes the rank and titles of her husband. What you are suggesting is that a Queen Consort isn't able to share the rank and titles of her husband unlike everyother woman.

To make it equitable then we need to not only say this about Queens' Consort but about ALL women - no woman takes the title/s and rank of her husband so no more Princesses, Duchesses etc through marriage.

To limit is to the wife of one person is totally discriminatory and unfair.

Really? Then how do you reconcile the BRF denying Wallis, Duchess of WIndsor, HRH?

 

[banda_windsor]

Really? Then how do you reconcile the BRF denying Wallis, Duchess of WIndsor, HRH?

I think it's a very different case with the DOW. She is the reason of King Edward to abdicate. The Royal Family never accept her as a member of the Royal Family. But the DOC, she's well accepted. QEII even bestowed upon her the Royal Family Order.

I agree to those who said that if Camilla can't be queen, it's unfair. She's already agree to not use her right to become the Princess of Wales in honor of Princess Diana memory. But Princess Diana was never use a title as a Queen of England. So I guess, it doesn't matter if Camilla use the title of Queen if Charles ascended the throne.

 

[Iluvbertie]

Really? Then how do you reconcile the BRF denying Wallis, Duchess of WIndsor, HRH?

I don't.

They were wrong, in my opinion.

Just because they were wrong is no reason to allow another discrimination to occur.

 

[scooter]

I think it's a very different case with the DOW. She is the reason of King Edward to abdicate. The Royal Family never accept her as a member of the Royal Family. But the DOC, she's well accepted. QEII even bestowed upon her the Royal Family Order.

I agree to those who said that if Camilla can't be queen, it's unfair. She's already agree to not use her right to become the Princess of Wales in honor of Princess Diana memory. But Princess Diana was never use a title as a Queen of England. So I guess, it doesn't matter if Camilla use the title of Queen if Charles ascended the throne.

As for well accepted I refer you to http://www.telegraph.co.uk/newstopi...1/public-support-falls-for-queen-camilla.html

Dated today:' A daily telegraph/Yougov poll commissioned to mark the 60th birthday of the Prince this Friday showed that only 18% wanted the Duchess to become Queen. When the same question was asked on her 60th birthday in July 2007, the number was 28%. '

Scarily enough, George Bush has far better approval numbers.

 

[Elspeth]

banda_windsor was talking about being accepted by the royal family. Which Camilla obviously has been. I wouldn't get too excited about these polls. People were demanding that Charles be shunted aside in favour of William after a previous poll found that more people wanted William to follow the Queen - but this poll shows that more people want Charles to be King now. I assume that if the same question is asked again at the time of William's engagement or some other popular event, the numbers will change again. It's a good thing nobody took fright at the "William must be the next monarch" polls and persuaded Charles to step out of the succession. Obviously a poll at the time of Camilla's birthday is going to give higher positive ratings than one coming just after all the publicity about her not accompanying Charles to Indonesia.

 

[grevinnan]

I doubt Charles will settle for anything less than Camilla being Queen.

 

[Elspeth]

Well, if they're going to have her be anything but Queen, they need to get moving as far as whatever laws need to be changed. It's not going to look good if she has to be demoted after the accession.

 

[scooter]

I think QEII has a few more miles left in her. No need to hurry!

 

[Menarue]

There is only one title for Camilla when Prince Charles becomes King and that is Queen.

 

[MARG]

Well, if they're going to have her be anything but Queen, they need to get moving as far as whatever laws need to be changed. It's not going to look good if she has to be demoted after the accession.

I can see it now . . . . the nation and Commonwealth in mourning, the Queen is dead! Long live the King! Oh but hang about, we haven't quite decided what to call the Kings wife so lets assemble the Commons and the House of Lords and change the law, then, and only then, we can bury "The Queen", both past and present!

 

[Menarue]

I can see it now . . . . the nation and Commonwealth in mourning, the Queen is dead! Long live the King! Oh but hang about, we haven't quite decided what to call the Kings wife so lets assemble the Commons and the House of Lords and change the law, then, and only then, we can bury "The Queen", both past and present!

Ooooh Marg. What a thought!

 

[Jacknch]

Really? Then how do you reconcile the BRF denying Wallis, Duchess of WIndsor, HRH?

I think there is a distinction between the words "title" (the name of the person) and "rank" (how high up the heirarchy they are). Therefore, the Duke of Windsor's wife became the Duchess of Windsor automatically on their marriage as is customery for a woman to take her husband's title, but the HRH is the rank is I believe a personal gift of the monarch and is not automatically added on to the title as a right. I'm quite sure I've read somewhere that the Queen bestowed the title of HRH on someone or other. On a similar subject, HRH THE Princess of Wales became simply Diana, Princess of Wales (in other words "a" princess, of Wales) on her divorce because the title goes with the marriage. With regard to her rank, HRH, she would automatically have lost this on divorce because she was no longer a member of the royal family (like Alexandra of Denmark who was given the courtesy rank of Her Highness which we do not have in Britain). Had Diana kept the title she could not have been known as HRH Diana, Princess of Wales because the HRH bit has to be followed by a THE. So her title could have been HRH The Princess Diana (of Wales).
As for HRH The Duchess of Cornwall, I am not so sure whether an Act of parliament would be required to prevent her being called Queen. It is customery for a Kings wife to be called Queen but surely it follows that if it customery for the Prince of Wales' wife to be called the Princess of Wales but she decides to use a different title this custom can be transferred up a rank so that if Camilla wants to be known as Princess Consort and no one objects then there should be no problem. Don't forget that Queen Elizabeth the Queen Mother was actually crowned queen when her husband King George had his coronation.

 

[Charlotte1]

Even if Diana had kept her HRH she never would have been HRH The Princess Diana of Wales. The "The" is used just by children of the monarch, Prince William is HRH Prince William of Wales ( see Court Circular) British princesses in their own right are born, they don't become princesses in their own right on marriage, so no 'Princess Diana' she wasn't the daughter or grand-daughter of a monarch in the male line. Upon her divorce she could have gone back to her actual title of Lady Diana.

Camilla becoming Queen, as the wife of The Prince of Wales she holds all his titles, and she's known by one of them Duchess of Cornwall. As wife of the King she holds no other titles except queen, she can't be known by a title she doesn't hold and that doesn't exist! Queen is top of the pile, title wise, once Charles becomes King she's automatically queen, if she's not queen then she has to be stripped of that title and a new one created, with legislation.

 

[muriel]

There is no doubt that when Charles succeeds to the throne, Camilla will legally be Queen. If Charles takes the view at the time (despite what was said at time of the engagement of C&C) that he would prefer that she be known as Princess Consort, he can issue letters patent to the effect. Legally, she would continue to be Queen but just be referred to as Princess Consort - just like the current arrangement where she is Princess of Wales, but prefers to use one of her lesser titles.

Some might argue of how she might use a lesser title that does not exist. As King, Charles will be font of all honour, and there will be nothing stopping him from creating the title of Princess Consort for her to use.

 

[princessistanbul]

I hope only Duchess... all time
She's not fit for "Queen" title

 

[Skydragon]

She's not fit for "Queen" title

And you know this how? Have you perhaps met her and discussed the role with her, is there a book we can read to judge her by?

 

[Laurentienne]

She will probably be crowned Queen like other women married to the heir of the throne. Charles will not accept that she will continue to be a duchess the day he becomes a King I think. He want her to be crowned Queen with him being crowned King.

 

[muriel]

She will probably be crowned Queen like other women married to the heir of the throne. Charles will not accept that she will continue to be a duchess the day he becomes a King I think. He want her to be crowned Queen with him being crowned King.

That is certainly a view heldby a lot of people!

 

[Charlotte1]

There is no doubt that when Charles succeeds to the throne, Camilla will legally be Queen. If Charles takes the view at the time (despite what was said at time of the engagement of C&C) that he would prefer that she be known as Princess Consort, he can issue letters patent to the effect. Legally, she would continue to be Queen but just be referred to as Princess Consort - just like the current arrangement where she is Princess of Wales, but prefers to use one of her lesser titles.

Some might argue of how she might use a lesser title that does not exist. As King, Charles will be font of all honour, and there will be nothing stopping him from creating the title of Princess Consort for her to use.

If you are legally Queen, then that's it you can't hold another title. Yes Charles can issue Letters Patent to create the Princess Consort title, but for Camilla to hold it, she first needs to be stripped of the Queen title. That requires legislation from parliament. Camilla can't be legally Queen and hold another title that's she's known by. Currently Camilla uses a title that exists and is legal.

The wording from Clarence House had 'wriggle room' "it is intended that..." At the relevant time it could become 'we intended but legally it's not possible'.

 

[muriel]

If you are legally Queen, then that's it you can't hold another title. Yes Charles can issue Letters Patent to create the Princess Consort title, but for Camilla to hold it, she first needs to be stripped of the Queen title. That requires legislation from parliament. Camilla can't be legally Queen and hold another title that's she's known by. Currently Camilla uses a title that exists and is legal.

The wording from Clarence House had 'wriggle room' "it is intended that..." At the relevant time it could become 'we intended but legally it's not possible'.

I am not sure I agree with you, much as I would like to. You may only hold the title of Queen, but query whether you may be styled as something else.

 

[Lady Ann]

Well I was never a big fan of the DOC but i do think since she has married the POW. She should be Queen when he becomes King. IMO what does it say of a King that he wife would not be of equal title. It has been a long time since Diana! The POW is happy let them live as one and be KING and QUEEN together ...

 

[Laurentienne]

I'm not a big fan of this couple either, but I think it is correct to crown her as the Queen when time comes. It will look odd if she continue to be a duchess.

And I'm sure Charles will not accept it either. He has married her, she is his wife, and since they were allowed to get married in the first place, I think DOC will be crowned a Queen when time comes.

This has nothing to do with Diana at all from my part. She and Charles got divorced after all. And Charles must be able to move on in life, both after the divorse and then the death of Diana.

 

[Jo of Palatine]

I am not sure I agree with you, much as I would like to. You may only hold the title of Queen, but query whether you may be styled as something else.

The problem is that to create her "Princess Consort", Charles would need to create her a HRH in her own right, just like king George VI. created Mr. Philip Mountbatten HRH The Duke of Edinburgh. For once Charles becomes His Majesty as his wife she can only share his style in the female form but not stick to one formerly held by her husband. Once Charles is His Majesty, she is Her Majesty.

Okay, he could create her HRH The Princess Consort but surely her higher rank through marriage would be used even in this case? Just like when the Suo Jure Countess of Sutherland in 1785 Viscount Trentham (courtesy title of the heir of the Earl Gower), but still used her own title. In 1786 her husband became by courtesy Earl Gower (as heir to the newly created Marquess of Stafford) so she still was known as Countess Sutherland. Only when her husband inherited the Marquessate in 1803, she was know by her husband's title, as it was higher than her own.

 

[CasiraghiTrio]

^But she is already an HRH by marriage. I believe that whatever will cause the least embarrassment to the monarchy will happen, and it would be embarrassing to have a situation where the King's wife is not Queen. It would look odd, like Laurentienne said. So I think whatever LPs and everything else that needs to be done will likely be done in due course in order that on coronation day a king and a queen will be crowned. Adjustments are an old story for monarchy. It's all about preservation.

 

[banda_windsor]

I hope only Duchess... all time
She's not fit for "Queen" title

I hope that you're wrong. Because it's ridiculous. Can you imagine that someday Britain will be lead by a King and a Duchess?? This is will never happen.

And Why do you think she's not fit for the title. And it's actually not about fit to the title or not. DOC become a Queen, it's the right thing to do!

 

[Elspeth]

Well, she won't be a duchess when Charles is King because William's wife will then be Duchess of Cornwall and Duchess of Rothesay, and the whole Duke of Lancaster thing isn't a real ducal title anyway, so the Queen Consort doesn't get to be Duchess of Lancaster.

But I'm still going back to the scenario where all this is done without Letters Patent or Acts of Parliament, just a simple statement from the Palace that HM The Queen will be known from now on as HRH The Princess Consort. Far as I know, she can call herself something she isn't, as long as there's no intent to defraud. There's been so much playing around with royal styles and titles in recent years that one more anomaly isn't going to kill anyone. She'll still be HM The Queen in her passport, but if Charles announces that she'll be known as the Princess Consort, who's actually going to stand up to him and say, "sorry, Sir, you can't do that"?

 

[Jacknch]

Well, she won't be a duchess when Charles is King because William's wife will then be Duchess of Cornwall and Duchess of Rothesay, and the whole Duke of Lancaster thing isn't a real ducal title anyway, so the Queen Consort doesn't get to be Duchess of Lancaster.

But I'm still going back to the scenario where all this is done without Letters Patent or Acts of Parliament, just a simple statement from the Palace that HM The Queen will be known from now on as HRH The Princess Consort. Far as I know, she can call herself something she isn't, as long as there's no intent to defraud. There's been so much playing around with royal styles and titles in recent years that one more anomaly isn't going to kill anyone. She'll still be HM The Queen in her passport, but if Charles announces that she'll be known as the Princess Consort, who's actually going to stand up to him and say, "sorry, Sir, you can't do that"?

I think that is quite right and is what is intended. Whilst legally Camilla will become HM Queen Camilla (whether she is crowned beside her husband or not and there is o legal requirement for her to be crowned at the coronation), I can think of no reason - legal or otherwise -why there would be a problem for her to be KNOWN and REFERRED TO as HRH The Princess Consort if that is HER preference. Even if the title doesn't legally exist I can't see why it cannot be used.

 

[Jo of Palatine]

Well, she won't be a duchess when Charles is King because William's wife will then be Duchess of Cornwall and Duchess of Rothesay, and the whole Duke of Lancaster thing isn't a real ducal title anyway, so the Queen Consort doesn't get to be Duchess of Lancaster.

But I'm still going back to the scenario where all this is done without Letters Patent or Acts of Parliament, just a simple statement from the Palace that HM The Queen will be known from now on as HRH The Princess Consort. Far as I know, she can call herself something she isn't, as long as there's no intent to defraud. There's been so much playing around with royal styles and titles in recent years that one more anomaly isn't going to kill anyone. She'll still be HM The Queen in her passport, but if Charles announces that she'll be known as the Princess Consort, who's actually going to stand up to him and say, "sorry, Sir, you can't do that"?

The question is if Charles actually wants to announce that she'll be known as HRH The Princess Consort. I personally can't see him as doing that - it would be a personal defeat if he is not able to accord his legal wife her legal title. Of course when this "it is intended..." was published, they did it for the sake of the marriage and the right of Camilla to be known as HRH but I seriously doubt it was Charles' idea and that he whole-heartedly supported it. It was a means to an end and nothing more.

It is no secret that what Charles and the people of his office at St. James' and what the queen and her people of her office at BP think is most of the time not the same. Once Charles' is king, only his opinion counts and the guys at BP are out of business. I doubt that it is in the interest of the government to insist on a change in tradition, Charles won't want that either, so it will just be the media and we have no idea how the media will react in the direct aftermath of HM's death.

 

[wymanda]

Really? Then how do you reconcile the BRF denying Wallis, Duchess of WIndsor, HRH?

Today, as a member of the European Union, Britain would not be able to do this as it discriminated against Wallis because of her marital status (Divorcee).
This was why C&C were able to have a Registry Office wedding. Their rights are the same as any other subject & european citizen. Charles could not be denied a civil wedding because of his birth status.