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  #741  
Old 04-19-2008, 12:20 PM
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Originally Posted by Madame Royale View Post
It sounds fat?.lol.

It's extremely unlikely that Camilla would use the distinction in any title if she outlives her husband, though if crowned Queen, a Dowager she will be.
If Charles predeceased her at present, she would technically lose the distinction of being "The" Duchess of Cornwall and become Camilla, Duchess of Cornwall instead. "The" only applies to the wife of a living Duke, not a widow or former wife. The style of "Dowager Duchess of Cornwall" would only apply if William had an eldest son and became King as there would be a new Duke.

As with Princess Alice, Duchess of Gloucester, The Queen or William V could grant her the distinction of using the princess style as the widow of a son of the Sovereign ("HRH Princess Camilla, Duchess of Cornwall") or grant her a lifetime peerage of her own.

If her husband died after she became Queen Consort, she automatically loses the style of "HM The Queen" and becomes "HM Queen Camilla" as a dowager queen.
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  #742  
Old 04-19-2008, 03:16 PM
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Since I live in the US obviously my opinion will fall in the "for what it's worth" department, but I don't see a problem with Camilla becoming Queen Camilla upon Charles' accession to the throne. From what I've read in this thread, it is obvious any other title will cause a bunch of constitutional problems down the road for any future consort.

But then I don't have a problem with Prince Phillip being King Consort and wonder why QEII didn't allow it. I know the rules are different if the Queen is Queen in her own right and her husband is the consort, still in a constitutional monarchy does it really matter what title the consort has, other than in the court of public opinion?

Would it damage the monarchy greatly for Camilla to be known as Queen Camilla?

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  #743  
Old 04-19-2008, 05:06 PM
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Originally Posted by Elspeth View Post
If the ex-queen isn't the mother of the current monarch, she can't be known as the Queen Mother, though. If William IV's widow had been called Victoria rather than Adelaide, then when Queen Victoria came to the throne, we'd have had two Queen Victorias and the older one wouldn't have been the Queen Mother. I don't really see how they could have avoided a Dowager handle in that case.
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  #744  
Old 04-19-2008, 07:31 PM
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Originally Posted by LadyCat View Post
But then I don't have a problem with Prince Phillip being King Consort and wonder why QEII didn't allow it. I know the rules are different if the Queen is Queen in her own right and her husband is the consort, still in a constitutional monarchy does it really matter what title the consort has, other than in the court of public opinion?

Would it damage the monarchy greatly for Camilla to be known as Queen Camilla?
The title of King is reserved for a reigning Sovereign. Since a King always outranks a Queen, the husband of a regnant Queen must hold a lesser rank and title as a Prince of the UK. Queen Victoria wanted to elevate her husband to King, but Parliament refused to consider it. Instead, Prince Albert was granted the title and style of HRH The Prince Consort.

This title and rank was considered for Philip as well, but he refused it. In 1957, The Queen created him a Prince of the UK in his own right and granted him the distinction of being "The Prince Philip". Since he was already Duke of Edinburgh, his title then became "HRH The Prince Philip, Duke of Edinburgh". Howver, his style remains "HRH The Duke of Edinburgh" as a royal duke.

The issue of Camilla's style and title when her husband becomes King is automatic in law. As the wife of the King, she must be HM The Queen as wives always share their husband's rank in the UK. If Parliament wishes to intervene with legislation, then it would be possible for her to be known as HRH The Princess Consort instead.
  #745  
Old 04-19-2008, 09:25 PM
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Originally Posted by Jo of Palatine View Post
Is it this way in Britain? In Russia it was different, if you look at the last Court Calendar before the revolution, of 1917. There first is the Emperor, but second is the emperor's mother, the Dowager Empress and third is the wife of the emperor.

You can find a link to it here:
http://www.riuo.org/SUCCESSION_ENGLISH.pdf
This created some friction in the British court after Edward VII died. Queen Alexandra and her sister (the Tsar's mother) were trying to insist that Queen Alexandra, the King's mother, should have precedence over Queen Mary, the King's wife, because that's how it was done in Russia. It seems that between her bid to remain first lady in the land and her refusal to move out of the big house at Sandringham, she was something of a thorn in Queen Mary's side for many years.
  #746  
Old 04-19-2008, 09:27 PM
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Originally Posted by branchg View Post
If Charles predeceased her at present, she would technically lose the distinction of being "The" Duchess of Cornwall and become Camilla, Duchess of Cornwall instead.
That sounds more like the style of a divorcee. Is it the same for a widow and a divorcee?
  #747  
Old 04-19-2008, 09:29 PM
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Originally Posted by branchg View Post
The issue of Camilla's style and title when her husband becomes King is automatic in law. As the wife of the King, she must be HM The Queen as wives always share their husband's rank in the UK. If Parliament wishes to intervene with legislation, then it would be possible for her to be known as HRH The Princess Consort instead.
I think that if they go the "Princess Consort" route (I hope they don't), they'll just issue a press release stating that "HM the Queen wishes to be known in public as HRH the Princess Consort." It avoids any legal issues and doesn't create any precedents for future monarchs. In the event of any official paperwork talking about her, it would still call her the Queen, etc. Yes, she'd be the Queen, but no law demands that anyone request to be called the Queen. She could issue a request now to be called "Lady Mimblewamble the Third of Heligoland," and I think at least some media outlets would start calling her even that absurd title. Soon the people would follow.
  #748  
Old 04-19-2008, 09:31 PM
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If Charles predeceased her at present, she would technically lose the distinction of being "The" Duchess of Cornwall and become Camilla, Duchess of Cornwall instead.


I disagree there. If Charles were to pass on before the Queen, William would become Duke of Cornwall and Camilla would be the Dowager Duchess of Cornwall and, by law, Dowager Princess of Wales.
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  #749  
Old 04-19-2008, 10:00 PM
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Originally Posted by wymanda View Post

I disagree there. If Charles were to pass on before the Queen, William would become Duke of Cornwall and Camilla would be the Dowager Duchess of Cornwall and, by law, Dowager Princess of Wales.
I was always under the assumption that only the son of the Sovereign could be the Duke of Cornwall. The Queen could make William the Prince of Wales, but not Duke of Cornwall or Duke of Rothesay.
  #750  
Old 04-19-2008, 10:10 PM
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Originally Posted by wbenson View Post
I think that if they go the "Princess Consort" route (I hope they don't), they'll just issue a press release stating that "HM the Queen wishes to be known in public as HRH the Princess Consort." It avoids any legal issues and doesn't create any precedents for future monarchs. In the event of any official paperwork talking about her, it would still call her the Queen, etc. Yes, she'd be the Queen, but no law demands that anyone request to be called the Queen. She could issue a request now to be called "Lady Mimblewamble the Third of Heligoland," and I think at least some media outlets would start calling her even that absurd title. Soon the people would follow.
You're such an optimist. Why would they go to all that trouble when they could just call her Camilla Parker Bowles? They'll probably still be doing that when she's Queen.
  #751  
Old 04-19-2008, 10:15 PM
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Originally Posted by wbenson View Post
I think that if they go the "Princess Consort" route (I hope they don't), they'll just issue a press release stating that "HM the Queen wishes to be known in public as HRH the Princess Consort." It avoids any legal issues and doesn't create any precedents for future monarchs. In the event of any official paperwork talking about her, it would still call her the Queen, etc. Yes, she'd be the Queen, but no law demands that anyone request to be called the Queen.
They cannot do as you describe without raising serious constitutional issues, including the precedent of 1936 with Edward VIII. She is automatically Queen and any variation requires consent from Parliament.
  #752  
Old 04-19-2008, 10:20 PM
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Originally Posted by Elspeth View Post
That sounds more like the style of a divorcee. Is it the same for a widow and a divorcee?
Yes, except, of course, the widow retains her rank derived through marriage. In Camilla's case, she would be "Her Royal Highness Camilla, Duchess of Cornwall".
  #753  
Old 04-19-2008, 10:20 PM
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I think we've been round this loop before, but as long as she signed Camilla R on legal documents, what's to stop her calling herself anything she wants to call herself? If Buckingham Palace issues a statement saying that HM The Queen wishes to be known as HRH The Princess Consort, can anyone actually put the brakes on it? Being known as something isn't the same as being something, and it isn't illegal in England to have a "stage name" as long as there's no intention to defraud.
  #754  
Old 04-19-2008, 10:43 PM
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Thank you for clarifying the issue of consort titles for me, branchg. I knew there were laws regarding the title of consort, I guess I thought the Queen did have a choice in the title of her consort. Evidently it is a bit more complicated than I thought.

Cat
  #755  
Old 04-19-2008, 10:45 PM
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Originally Posted by AuroraB View Post
I was always under the assumption that only the son of the Sovereign could be the Duke of Cornwall. The Queen could make William the Prince of Wales, but not Duke of Cornwall or Duke of Rothesay.
William would inherit the Duke of Cornwall title from his father. Had HM been Queen when Charles was born he would have been HRH The Duke of Cornwall from the moment of his birth. The PoW title cannot be inherited & only the son of the Monarch can be created PoW.
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  #756  
Old 04-19-2008, 10:47 PM
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Originally Posted by branchg View Post
They cannot do as you describe without raising serious constitutional issues, including the precedent of 1936 with Edward VIII. She is automatically Queen and any variation requires consent from Parliament.
I'm not talking at all about what she would be. I'm talking about what she would be called. Those are two very different things.

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Originally Posted by Elspeth View Post
eing known as something isn't the same as being something, and it isn't illegal in England to have a "stage name" as long as there's no intention to defraud.
Indeed. I think that's been proven (though on a lesser scale) with Princess Alice and the Wessex children.
  #757  
Old 04-19-2008, 10:49 PM
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Originally Posted by wymanda View Post
William would inherit the Duke of Cornwall title from his father.
Only the son of the sovereign can be Duke of Cornwall. It isn't a normal dukedom in that regard. If Charles died today, William would continue to be Prince William of Wales. (At least I think he would be. I think the Dukedom of Rothesay follows the same rules as Cornwall) Had Charles died before having issue, however, Andrew would have automatically become Duke of Cornwall. It can only be held by a person who is both the Heir Apparent and the eldest son of the Sovereign.

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Originally Posted by wymanda View Post
The PoW title cannot be inherited & only the son of the Monarch can be created PoW.
The second part is incorrect. George III was created Prince of Wales by his grandfather George II three weeks after the death of George III's father, the previous Prince of Wales.
  #758  
Old 04-19-2008, 11:15 PM
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While I'm not a "fan" of Camilla in any way, and on a personal level do not respect Charles' and Camilla's behaviour in the past, in my opinion, my and anyone else's issues with their personal behaviour should have no bearing on Camilla's current or future title. Monarchs and royals do not "earn" their titles based on what the public thinks of their morality or personal behaviour, and as such, these feelings and emotions should not determine what title someone is to receive.

While I can understand why they did not want Camilla to be addressed as HRH The Princess of Wales (since it would hit a sore spot with those who have great loyalty to the late Diana, Princess of Wales), there is no strong legal or political argument for why Camilla is now known as HRH The Duchess of Cornwall or for why Camilla, upon Charles' ascendance to the throne, should be known as HRH The Princess Consort and not HM The Queen (unless we're talking about a change to titles due to gender equality along the lines of the Dutch).
  #759  
Old 04-20-2008, 02:51 AM
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Originally Posted by Elspeth View Post
I think we've been round this loop before, but as long as she signed Camilla R on legal documents, what's to stop her calling herself anything she wants to call herself?
Bozo comes to mind...
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  #760  
Old 04-20-2008, 03:35 AM
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Originally Posted by wbenson View Post

Indeed. I think that's been proven (though on a lesser scale) with Princess Alice and the Wessex children.
Princess Alice and the Wessex children actually legally hold ( or held in Alice's case) the titles they used.

Princess Alice, the Duchess of Gloucester became a princess when she married Prince Henry of Gloucester ( who was Duke of Gloucester) she was Princess Henry of Gloucester. After her husband died she asked the Queen if she could use her own name, so she was styled Princess Alice, Duchess of Gloucester, but by virtue of her marriage to a British prince, she did hold the title of princess.
The Wessex children hold the titles they are currently known by as their father is the Earl of Wessex. yes they do hold other titles but the lesser ones are the ones they are known by.

Once Charles becomes King, Camilla has the title Queen, no other title. The Princess Consort title doesn't exist unless parliament creates it.

Camilla could be known by a totally fictious title ( Princess Consort) and legally sign everything Camilla R but that then devalues all legal titles in the UK. By Camilla by openly using a title that has no legal foundation,would leave the gates open to anyone naming themselves 'Prince/ Princess/Duke/Duchess' etc all titles would be discredited.
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