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  #621  
Old 01-29-2008, 07:02 PM
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Originally Posted by BeatrixFan View Post
Well lets be honest here - it could be done but it wont be done. Why? Because no one cares enough. No one can afford to care enough. Hence why it's a non issue and hence why all these polls and debates about it are a waste of time.
That's what everyone is hoping and it should be a non-issue when the time comes. But we'll have to wait and see.
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  #622  
Old 01-29-2008, 07:03 PM
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I think you're all missing the point here though - the British people won't march on Buckingham Palace and demand the head of Charles 'cos Camilla's Queen. We don't do that, we never have - the only reason Wallis Simpson wasn't Queen was because the big wigs didn't want her to be. It was the PM and the Archbishop who brought down Edward VIII, not the people and the people won't bother when Charles becomes King. They'll automatically be King and Queen and we'll all just get on with it. Thats what we do. There's no ultimatum, there's no fuss, there's no referendum or act of parliament - it'll just happen and we'll just get on with it.
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  #623  
Old 01-29-2008, 07:04 PM
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Either she is accepted as Queen Consort or Charles must abdicate.
I'm sorry, but that's a severe exaggeration. By that ideology, he may as well have signed a forthcoming act of abdication the same day he signed his marriage register.

It was never going to be any easy slog.
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  #624  
Old 01-29-2008, 07:05 PM
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Originally Posted by branchg View Post
I don't think they will get away with it by the means you describe. The legal issues are very clear that the wife of The King must be Queen Consort and nothing else. All of the constitutional precedents were thoroughly examined in 1936 and there is no other conclusion that can be made.
If they released a statement to the effect of "though Camilla legally remains Queen, she wishes to request that she be unofficially styled Her Royal Highness the Princess Consort for the time being," I really don't think anyone would begrudge her that. Yes, some people would refuse to call her anything else, and maybe Tuvalu or Papua New Guinea would call her Queen Camilla in everything they do, but I can't imagine the government (or most of the people) being so caught up in it that they do anything but say "whatever, it doesn't really bother us."
  #625  
Old 01-29-2008, 07:07 PM
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Originally Posted by BeatrixFan View Post
I think you're all missing the point here though - the British people won't march on Buckingham Palace and demand the head of Charles 'cos Camilla's Queen. We don't do that, we never have - the only reason Wallis Simpson wasn't Queen was because the big wigs didn't want her to be. It was the PM and the Archbishop who brought down Edward VIII, not the people and the people won't bother when Charles becomes King. They'll automatically be King and Queen and we'll all just get on with it. Thats what we do. There's no ultimatum, there's no fuss, there's no referendum or act of parliament - it'll just happen and we'll just get on with it.
Which is what should happen. They're already married and she shares his rank and titles. There is no logical reason why she should not be Queen when the time comes.
  #626  
Old 01-29-2008, 07:10 PM
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Originally Posted by wbenson View Post
If they released a statement to the effect of "though Camilla legally remains Queen, she wishes to request that she be unofficially styled Her Royal Highness the Princess Consort for the time being," I really don't think anyone would begrudge her that. Yes, some people would refuse to call her anything else, and maybe Tuvalu or Papua New Guinea would call her Queen Camilla in everything they do, but I can't imagine the government (or most of the people) being so caught up in it that they do anything but say "whatever, it doesn't really bother us."
She can't be Queen and a Princess Consort at the same time. She is Her Majesty The Queen, not Her Royal Highness Princess Camilla, once her husband becomes King.

That's the difference.
  #627  
Old 01-29-2008, 07:14 PM
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Originally Posted by branchg View Post
She can't be Queen and a Princess Consort at the same time. She is Her Majesty The Queen, not Her Royal Highness Princess Camilla, once her husband becomes King.
"Can't be" is very, very different from "Can't be called." A simple statement of "Call her this thing we've made up, not this thing the law says she is" would most likely suffice in getting most people to call her whatever they want. It wouldn't be her legal title, in fact it wouldn't really exist at all. That doesn't matter in the long run, though. I hope they won't do that, as I really do want to see a Queen Camilla, but I also accept that, if pressed, they'll do what they want anyways.
  #628  
Old 01-29-2008, 07:47 PM
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The notion that Charles is going to be forced to abdicate over Camilla's title is really a little extreme and over the top; it is also unlikely. The facts are these--when Charles ascends the throne Camilla will automatically become Queen Camilla. No special laws are going to be passed to make her the Princess Consort--why on earth should they be passed? She is the spouse of the monarch, not a second class citizen. All this talk of what she will be titled is well, disrepectful of what her rightful position is. This is utterly and without question ridiculous; the idea that Parliament would pass a law stating that Camilla is the Princess Consort because so many people still revere the memory of a dead woman who sought to bring down a monarchy-well, it is unethical that people would even consider such a thing. The laws of succession are how they are for a reason. The spouse is the Queen. Enough is enough.
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  #629  
Old 01-29-2008, 08:00 PM
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No special laws are going to be passed to make her the Princess Consort
You, or anyone here (myself included), cannot categorically state this, jcbcode99.....though I do admire you'e steadfast conviction..hehe..
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  #630  
Old 01-29-2008, 08:03 PM
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a dead woman who sought to bring down a monarchy-well
That is not true or fair to say jcbcode99.
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  #631  
Old 01-29-2008, 08:08 PM
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Oh Diana didn't want to bring down the Monarchy..good heavens no! A son's inheritance, afterall. She just wanted to give it what for (rightly or wrongly).
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  #632  
Old 01-29-2008, 08:37 PM
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Originally Posted by Madame Royale View Post
You, or anyone here (myself included), cannot categorically state this, jcbcode99.....though I do admire you'e steadfast conviction..hehe..
Madame Royale! Where have you been? I do agree--no one can really state what is going to happen one way or the other, but I thought (and of course, I may be wrong) that Camilla would automatically be Queen unless a law was passed that would prohibit her from that title and instead give her the lower title of HRH The Princess Consort. Unless that law is passed, she is automatically the Queen--right? So, let's look at this scenario, just for a moment. THe Queen passes away one night. Because one cannot really schedule death in the daybook, we don't know when this will be. However, the Queen dies; in that instant, Charles becomes King. This means that Camilla is AUTOMATICALLY Queen in the same instant. Will Parliament then pass this law and give her a lower title after the fact? Most likely not. That's where I'm going with this. This law would have to be passed before HM passes--and would she approve such a law? I don't know, but I don't think she would. Sbe is too steeped in the tradition of her family, and I don't see her no-nonsense personality approving of something so complicated. Besides, it sets a precedent that many may not want set--if we're looking down the road.
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  #633  
Old 01-29-2008, 08:45 PM
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Originally Posted by sirhon11234 View Post
That is not true or fair to say jcbcode99.
Perhaps it was harsh, Sirhon but I think is is accurate. The only reason that this business of Princess Consort is being discussed is because Diana was married to Charles and she complained to the world about him and was able to garner lots of sympathy for herself. Camilla has already given up her rightful style of Princess of Wales, (althought she is in fact Camilla, The Princess of Wales) why should she have to give up HM The Queen? Diana would have never been Queen--she wanted a divorce, she got one. Unfortunantly, she died in a horrible car accident--but her dying that way made everyone feel this need to canonize her and treat her memory like a delicate piece of blown glass--and she doesn't really deserve all of that; she does deserve respect, but denying Camilla something that is legally and rightfully hers is going to an extreme that I just do not think is right. I respect tradition and I believe that whoever is married to the King should become the Queen.
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  #634  
Old 01-29-2008, 08:57 PM
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Absolutely, jcbcode99

Camilla will be Her Majesty the Queen. No if's, buts or maybe's. The Question is how long she shall be Queen if the intent is for her to be known, officially as HRH the Princess Consort.

For all we know this process could already be underway, the logistics of it anyway, so as to provide as smooth a transition as possible when the time comes. If his coronation is already being penciled out then I'd be certain the issue of his wifes title would also be accorded the attention it so deserves.

Parliament is aware of the intended change, the Royal House is aware of the intended change and the Commonwealth Governments are aware of the intended change. This has been no hidden seceret, afterall. Of course, just because it's intended doesn't necessarily mean it's set in stone.

Can it be done? Most certainly it can and it's quite possible it shall. It's also possible that by the time Charles inherit's his mother's realm, that public endorsement of a Queen Camilla could have gained much vitality.

Quote:
The only reason that this business of Princess Consort is being discussed is because Diana was married to Charles and she complained to the world about him and was able to garner lots of sympathy for herself
I wouldn't solely lay blame at Diana's feet. I've always seen it as having had more to do with the extramarital company sought by those involved, rather than a sympathy vote for Diana. I don't deny her involvement, I just don't think it right to blame her for the decision of Clarence House some 8 years after her death. We must remember that those who feel they have strong affiliations with the Late Princess' memory, are a minority. To propose such a change would not be done to make happy a minority of people, imo. So it's my belief that it reflects something deeper than that, something which goes beyond a marriage of two people.

The morals and merit, that we the people entrust in our institution!

And yet, my reasons for wanting Camilla to be Princess Consort are reflected by neither scenario...
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  #635  
Old 01-29-2008, 09:11 PM
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Originally Posted by jcbcode99 View Post
Perhaps it was harsh, Sirhon but I think is is accurate. The only reason that this business of Princess Consort is being discussed is because Diana was married to Charles and she complained to the world about him and was able to garner lots of sympathy for herself. Camilla has already given up her rightful style of Princess of Wales, (althought she is in fact Camilla, The Princess of Wales) why should she have to give up HM The Queen? Diana would have never been Queen--she wanted a divorce, she got one. Unfortunantly, she died in a horrible car accident--but her dying that way made everyone feel this need to canonize her and treat her memory like a delicate piece of blown glass--and she doesn't really deserve all of that; she does deserve respect, but denying Camilla something that is legally and rightfully hers is going to an extreme that I just do not think is right. I respect tradition and I believe that whoever is married to the King should become the Queen.
jcbcode99 (how did you come up with that name?) I don't have a problem with Camilla becoming Queen, the title is not affiliated with Diana the POW is.
When she decided to style herself as DOC I was very pleased with that choice, that is why I haven't objected to Camilla becoming queen. The Princess of Wales is a Queen in my Heart, so its of no importance to me when Camilla becomes queen.
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  #636  
Old 01-29-2008, 09:23 PM
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I don't think it will be brought before Parliament unless it's understood beforehand what the result will be. I can see the headlines now: "Children die as Parliament debates Camilla's Title instead of <thing>."

I really do think that if Charles and Camilla decide that she should be known as "Princess Consort," they'll just go the unofficial route, accept that legally she's the Queen, and simply will people to call her what they want, unless the government of the day is opposed to such a move (honestly, I can't imagine the government of the day saying anything but "we'll respect your wishes.")
  #637  
Old 01-29-2008, 09:34 PM
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Originally Posted by sirhon11234 View Post
jcbcode99 (how did you come up with that name?) I don't have a problem with Camilla becoming Queen, the title is not affiliated with Diana the POW is.
When she decided to style herself as DOC I was very pleased with that choice, that is why I haven't objected to Camilla becoming queen. The Princess of Wales is a Queen in my Heart, so its of no importance to me when Camilla becomes queen.
Sirhon, that was a beautiful post!
As for my name, well, my husband came up with it--he's osbcode99 and I'm thusly jcbcode99. I have no idea how he came up with it, but he thought it was cute
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  #638  
Old 01-29-2008, 09:44 PM
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Originally Posted by Madame Royale View Post
Absolutely, jcbcode99

Camilla will be Her Majesty the Queen. No if's, buts or maybe's. The Question is how long she shall be Queen if the intent is for her to be known, officially as HRH the Princess Consort.

For all we know this process could already be underway, the logistics of it anyway, so as to provide as smooth a transition as possible when the time comes. If his coronation is already being penciled out then I'd be certain the issue of his wifes title would also be accorded the attention it so deserves.

Parliament is aware of the intended change, the Royal House is aware of the intended change and the Commonwealth Governments are aware of the intended change. This has been no hidden seceret, afterall. Of course, just because it's intended doesn't necessarily mean it's set in stone.

Can it be done? Most certainly it can and it's quite possible it shall. It's also possible that by the time Charles inherit's his mother's realm, that public endorsement of a Queen Camilla could have gained much vitality.



I wouldn't solely lay blame at Diana's feet. I've always seen it as having had more to do with the extramarital company sought by those involved, rather than a sympathy vote for Diana. I don't deny her involvement, I just don't think it right to blame her for the decision of Clarence House some 8 years after her death. We must remember that those who feel they have strong affiliations with the Late Princess' memory, are a minority. To propose such a change would not be done to make happy a minority of people. So it's my belief that it reflects something deeper than that, something which goes beyond a marriage of two people.

The morals, trust and merit, that we the people entrust in the institution!

And yet, my reasons for wanting Camilla to be Princess Consort are reflected be neither scenario...
Madame Royale, you have made me realize that I did not clarify myself! I do not lay the blame for this whole fiasco (love triangle, quadralateral, or whatever shape it takes) on just Diana. That would be irresponsible and, frankly, blind on my part. There was no innocent party here at all.
I do think that the proposal eight years ago for the title of Princess Consort was made to soften the marriage announcement because of the people who still revere Diana--and they are still around--look at what happened with the Memorial Service. It shows that public sentiment of a few still has influence. I think that will lessen with time, but I do think that tradition and law should be followed and she be Queen Camilla. I don't like the whole idea of second wives deserving less than their predecessors, which is what this amounts to.
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  #639  
Old 01-29-2008, 09:49 PM
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If the Queen Mother was so anti Charles and Camilla as a couple why did she allows Prince Charles to entertain Camilla at Birkhall Lodge (her own property) during her lifetime. IMO I don't think we'll ever find out the QM's true opinion of the couple until William Shawcross's official biography of the QM gets published - if that ever happens of course! According to Richard Kay the text of the biography was handed to the Queen's private secretary for royal vetting and approval in the first week of September 2007. According to Penguin Publishers' website it was due for publication in October 2007. It hasn't been heard of since September and no new publication date has been given. Jonathan Dimbleby's 820page tome took less than 2 months to vet and we know that that had pieces edited out of it at Buckingham Palace's request, because Dimbleby admitted as much in 1994. So heaven knows what is being edited out of the QM biography during the 4 months its already been with the Queen.
I don't think we'll ever find out the truth about a lot of aspects of the Queen Mother until someone manages to write an authoritative biography that isn't vetted by the royal family. I'll be extremely surprised if the Shawcross biography isn't more of the same "the Queen Mother was perfect" stuff we've been getting for the last goodness knows how many decades.
  #640  
Old 01-29-2008, 09:55 PM
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As far as I'm aware, it wasn't even thought likely that Charles and Camilla would marry so the proposal of Princess Consort wouldn't have even been suggested.

What I meant was that 8 years after her death, it was proposed.

Quote:
I don't like the whole idea of second wives deserving less than their predecessors, which is what this amounts to.
I'm not so sure it's a matter of second wives (well, certainly isn't for me), but the way circumstances played out.
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