The Royal Forums Coat of Arms


Join The Royal Forums Today
Closed Thread
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
 
  #541  
Old 07-19-2007, 12:01 PM
BeatrixFan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: London, United Kingdom
Posts: 6,861
A title doesn't become defunct because of the popularity of one holder. If that was the way it worked, we wouldn't have a King or Queen at all. As for a ton of die-hard Di fans putting up huge protests, a steam roller would soon sort that out. Seriously, if they've got nothing better to do than protest about someone's name then they really need a trip to Africa to see some real problems to crow about.
__________________

__________________
Kaye aka BeatrixFan
  #542  
Old 07-19-2007, 12:38 PM
Henri M.'s Avatar
Royal Highness
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: Eindhoven / Maastricht, Netherlands
Posts: 1,896
Quote:
Originally Posted by acdc1 View Post
I honestly don't care what title she gets when Charles becomes king. If she wants the title "Princess Consort" that's fine, but if she becomes Queen Camilla that's fine as well. The only title I think that she shouldn't have had was Princess of Wales. That title is so associated with Diana, and I know that William's wife, and William's son's wife, and William's grandson's wife will probably carry it if the men are created Prince of Wales, but I think that Camilla, being a huge part of the dissentigration of Charles and Diana's marriage, shouldn't carry the title. It's too risky, and a ton of die-hard Diana fans would put up huge protests, because they won't be too happy about it.
So if Crown Princess Mary is hugely popular in Denmark, then her probably far less popular successor, the spouse to the then Crown Prince Christian should not be known as 'The Crown Princess' because this title is associated with Mary? That is the translation of what you say about the title Princess of Wales not to be used by Camilla.

Neither Diana nor Camilla were (are) a Princess in their own right. Their title was (is) purely out of social custom and courteoisie to address female spouses of titled men with their husband's title(s).

Camilla Rosemary Shand formerly Parker Bowles is rightfully married to The Prince of Wales, Duke of Cornwall, Duke of Rothesay, Etc. and therefore has the same "rights" on being styled in the same way as the Prince's first spouse.

Just like Caroline Hutton is as much the Countess Spencer as her husband's first spouse (Victoria Lockwood) once was.



It was wrong by the Court to smuggle the proud title Princess of Wales under the carpet out of fear for a possible negative reaction. (For so far no any fear concerning Camilla has become true, by the way).
__________________

  #543  
Old 07-19-2007, 12:47 PM
acdc1's Avatar
Heir Presumptive
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: somewhere in, United States
Posts: 2,227
In my above post, I didn't mean that Camilla wasn't "worthy" of the title, or not as good as Diana, etc. I really like Camilla, actually a little better than I did Diana (she's not as, well, odd about some things as Diana was). I'm saying that it might cause controversy if Camilla gets the title of the woman whose marriage she had a pretty strong hand in breaking up (for future reference, she wasn't the ONLY hand, Diana had quite a few "friends" as well, but I think that it was Camilla who got the War of the Walses started). I think Charles and Camilla also knew how much controversy it would cause, so they went to calling her HRH the Duchess of Cornwall instead, which I think is also a rightful title.
  #544  
Old 07-19-2007, 01:28 PM
selrahc4's Avatar
Courtier
 
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: , United States
Posts: 760
Quote:
Originally Posted by acdc1 View Post
I'm saying that it might cause controversy if Camilla gets the title of the woman whose marriage she had a pretty strong hand in breaking up

That's why I think she should definitely be known as Queen when the time comes. It's a title Diana never held so there's little connection.
__________________
aka Janet on some other forums
  #545  
Old 07-19-2007, 06:53 PM
Roslyn's Avatar
Heir Apparent
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Tintenbar, Australia
Posts: 4,102
I personally hope that Camilla is known as Queen Consort, but whatever she ends up being called she will provide the sort of support and companionship and love that Charles needs and quite clearly thrives on and which will make him a far better King than he would have been had they not married.

"What's in a name? that which we call a rose
By any other name would smell as sweet"
__________________
"That's it then. Cancel the kitchen scraps for lepers and orphans, no more merciful beheadings, -- and call off Christmas!!!"
  #546  
Old 07-19-2007, 07:54 PM
Heir Presumptive
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: , United States
Posts: 2,735
Quote:
Originally Posted by BillW65 View Post
I would generally agree with you but what concerns me is that the British Royal family seems to just change the rules and do what they desire as far as titles are concerned without going through the proper methods as in issuing new Letters Patent. Although legally the Duchess is HRH The Princess of Wales, they just chose to ignore that and she goes by the prince's secondary title. The case with Louise of Wessex is very similar, a royal princess just using a different style without legally changing it. Both have set a precedence. So when Charles becomes king I can envision the Duchess adopting the title Princess Consort as planned without going through the process of legally changing the law.
No one is "ignoring" the fact Camilla is also Princess of Wales. As with any woman who marries the heir to the throne, she enjoys all of the titles and styles traditionally granted or automatically succeeded to by her husband. For obvious reasons, she has chosen to be styled as Duchess of Cornwall, but her married title and rank if Charles had no other titles is "HRH The Princess Charles". She is still a princess of the UK by marriage regardless of which peerage she is styled by.

Louise is a similar situation. By right of the 1917 Letters Patent, she is automatically HRH Princess Louise of Wessex as a male-line grandaughter of The Queen. At her parents' request, she is currently styled as the daughter of an Earl, which is fine because she IS the daughter of an Earl. Assuming the current letters patent remain in force, she can assume her superior rank and title at any time in the future.

Once Charles becomes King, these situations no longer can be applied because we are now dealing with a very different scenario. As the wife of The King, Camilla assumes automatically the title and precedence of HM The Queen in her own right. If her husband dies five minutes after his mother, she is HM Queen Camilla for the rest of her life as a dowager queen. Only Parliament can take away her rank and title as the wife of the King.

Being "HRH The Princess Consort" means she is a princess of the UK in her own right like Prince Philip is. But how can this be when she is already Queen? It can't without legislation being passed by Parliament taking away her superior rank and title, leaving The Sovereign free to create a lesser one in its place.

She cannot be "styled" as a princess of the UK when she is legally Queen Consort and holds superior precedence and title.
  #547  
Old 07-19-2007, 08:42 PM
Commoner
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Canandaigua, United States
Posts: 21
Quote:
Originally Posted by branchg View Post
No one is "ignoring" the fact Camilla is also Princess of Wales. As with any woman who marries the heir to the throne, she enjoys all of the titles and styles traditionally granted or automatically succeeded to by her husband. For obvious reasons, she has chosen to be styled as Duchess of Cornwall, but her married title and rank if Charles had no other titles is "HRH The Princess Charles". She is still a princess of the UK by marriage regardless of which peerage she is styled by.

Louise is a similar situation. By right of the 1917 Letters Patent, she is automatically HRH Princess Louise of Wessex as a male-line grandaughter of The Queen. At her parents' request, she is currently styled as the daughter of an Earl, which is fine because she IS the daughter of an Earl. Assuming the current letters patent remain in force, she can assume her superior rank and title at any time in the future.

Once Charles becomes King, these situations no longer can be applied because we are now dealing with a very different scenario. As the wife of The King, Camilla assumes automatically the title and precedence of HM The Queen in her own right. If her husband dies five minutes after his mother, she is HM Queen Camilla for the rest of her life as a dowager queen. Only Parliament can take away her rank and title as the wife of the King.

Being "HRH The Princess Consort" means she is a princess of the UK in her own right like Prince Philip is. But how can this be when she is already Queen? It can't without legislation being passed by Parliament taking away her superior rank and title, leaving The Sovereign free to create a lesser one in its place.

She cannot be "styled" as a princess of the UK when she is legally Queen Consort and holds superior precedence and title.

I agree and understand all of that. I just wonder if anything will be legally done when Camilla becomes Queen? I personally do not think Parliament will try and strip her of her legal title and position as Queen Consort. I believe she may just use the style and title of HRH The Princess Consort as was suggested when marrying Charles. I do understand that it creates a situation where the Queen would be holding a lesser title than what she legally already would have.
  #548  
Old 07-19-2007, 08:50 PM
Heir Presumptive
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: , United States
Posts: 2,735
The title does not currently exist and has to be created by The Sovereign via letters patent. If Parliament agrees a Queen Consort can legally hold the title, rank and precedence of HM The Queen, while also being created a princess of the UK, then it is possible for Camilla to hold a lesser style.

I do not see how they can accomplish this because legally either you are The Queen or HRH The Princess Consort. You cannot be both.
  #549  
Old 07-19-2007, 08:52 PM
Roslyn's Avatar
Heir Apparent
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Tintenbar, Australia
Posts: 4,102
If the legislation to change the rule that the wife of the King is automatically Queen is left till Charles becomes King, such a move would amount to taking away the title Camilla would have automatically acquired at the moment the current Queen died. If it's done during the current Queen's reign, it would still be a rather personal shot at Camilla, I think. The MP's speeches for and against the bill would make very interesting reading.

I don't think it's going to happen.
__________________
"That's it then. Cancel the kitchen scraps for lepers and orphans, no more merciful beheadings, -- and call off Christmas!!!"
  #550  
Old 07-24-2007, 07:32 AM
muriel's Avatar
Imperial Majesty
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: London / Guildford, United Kingdom
Posts: 10,556
As King, can Charles not issue letters patent awarding Camilla the title of HRH The Princess Consort? Does this have to be ratified by Parliament? I think the intention would be for Camilla to legally be Queen, but be referred to as HRH Princess Consort - quite like the current arrangement whereby she is the Princess of Wales but is referred to as Doc.
  #551  
Old 07-24-2007, 11:38 AM
Commoner
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Canandaigua, United States
Posts: 21
Quote:
Originally Posted by branchg View Post
The title does not currently exist and has to be created by The Sovereign via letters patent. If Parliament agrees a Queen Consort can legally hold the title, rank and precedence of HM The Queen, while also being created a princess of the UK, then it is possible for Camilla to hold a lesser style.

I do not see how they can accomplish this because legally either you are The Queen or HRH The Princess Consort. You cannot be both.
The wife of a king is automatically a queen (consort as apposed to a queen regnant like Elizabeth II) there is no need to create a letters patent to create her as such.

I do not think there will be any legal proceedings to take away her title of queen when Charles becomes king. However, she just may not use that title and be known as HRH the Princess Consort without any letters patten or legislation to alter her legal title. I think it will be very similar to what has been done to Louise of Wessex. Her title has not been taken away, she just doesn't use it.
  #552  
Old 07-24-2007, 05:21 PM
Iluvbertie's Avatar
Imperial Majesty
 
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: Bathurst, Australia
Posts: 13,219
Quote:
Originally Posted by BillW65 View Post
The wife of a king is automatically a queen (consort as apposed to a queen regnant like Elizabeth II) there is no need to create a letters patent to create her as such.

I do not think there will be any legal proceedings to take away her title of queen when Charles becomes king. However, she just may not use that title and be known as HRH the Princess Consort without any letters patten or legislation to alter her legal title. I think it will be very similar to what has been done to Louise of Wessex. Her title has not been taken away, she just doesn't use it.
The difference is that Louise is being styled as the daughter of an earl, which she is of course. She is using a title that she is entitled to use even though she has legally a right to a higher title - like Camilla using DOC rather than POW.

However, once the present Queen dies Camilla becomes Queen Consort as Charles becomes King. As King he doesn't have lesser titles in the same way as he does now and as such Camilla can't just use a lesser title as one doesn't exist. It will have to be created for her and legislation will be needed to strip her of her right to take the status, styles and titles of her husband.
  #553  
Old 07-24-2007, 06:28 PM
Heir Apparent
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Toronto (ON) & London (UK), Canada
Posts: 5,276
Camilla automatically becomes Queen the moment Charles becomes King. British women take their rank and title from their husbands, assuming he is of higher rank. Queen Consort is not a title it is a rank. The king's wife is simple the Queen. Still I assume that King Charles III could issue a public statement that his wife would be known as HRH The Princess Consort, just as she is now known as HRH The Duchess of Cornwall even though she is also legally HRH The Princess of Wales. No Letters Patent required for either decision.
  #554  
Old 07-24-2007, 07:00 PM
Imperial Majesty
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: ***, United States
Posts: 16,873
The difference there is that she IS the Duchess of Cornwall, so there's nothing to be done in order for her to be known as such. However, as Queen Consort, she won't be Princess Consort, so she'd have to be known as something she isn't. For the "Princess Consort" stuff to make any more sense than being known as Bozo the Clown, she'd have to actually be it as well as be known as it, and that would require legislation.
  #555  
Old 07-24-2007, 07:03 PM
Commoner
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Canandaigua, United States
Posts: 21
Quote:
Originally Posted by chrissy57 View Post
The difference is that Louise is being styled as the daughter of an earl, which she is of course. She is using a title that she is entitled to use even though she has legally a right to a higher title - like Camilla using DOC rather than POW.

However, once the present Queen dies Camilla becomes Queen Consort as Charles becomes King. As King he doesn't have lesser titles in the same way as he does now and as such Camilla can't just use a lesser title as one doesn't exist. It will have to be created for her and legislation will be needed to strip her of her right to take the status, styles and titles of her husband.
Agreed. I think you said it better than I did. :)
  #556  
Old 07-24-2007, 07:40 PM
Heir Apparent
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Toronto (ON) & London (UK), Canada
Posts: 5,276
Well at The Queen Mothers funeral the Earl Marshal in announceing her titles referred to her as Princess Elizabeth, in addition to her other titles and honours. That would seem to suggest that a Queen consort is also a princess, so its not a big leap to simply choose to be known as Princess Consort.She would be Queen in fact but known as something else. The monarchy is afterall a very adaptable institution.

I actually believe Camilla should use the title of Queen, but if another title is chosen I doubt very much that the legislative route will be taken because that would open up a debate on the monarchy both in the UK and in other commonwealth nations which no one would want.
  #557  
Old 07-24-2007, 07:57 PM
Imperial Majesty
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: ***, United States
Posts: 16,873
It's very strange that they would have done that because she was never Princess Elizabeth.

Maybe Chrissy or branchg can explain this:

Thus it hath pleased Almighty God to take out of this transitory life unto His Divine Mercy the late Most High, Most Mighty and Most Excellent Princess Elizabeth, Queen Dowager and Queen Mother, Lady of the Most Noble Order of the Garter, Lady of the Most Ancient and Most Noble Order of the Thistle, Lady of the Imperial Order of the Crown of India, Grand Master and Dame Grand Cross of the Royal Victorian Order upon whom had been conferred the Royal Victorian Chain, Dame Grand Cross of the Most Excellent Order of the British Empire, Dame Grand Cross of the Most Venerable Order of the Hospital of St John, Relict of His Majesty King George the Sixth and Mother of Her Most Excellent Majesty Elizabeth The Second by the Grace of God of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland and of her other Realms and Territories Queen, Head of the Commonwealth, Defender of the Faith, Sovereign of the Most Noble Order of the Garter, whom may God preserve and bless with long life, health and honour and all worldly happiness.
  #558  
Old 07-24-2007, 10:09 PM
Commoner
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Quebec city, Canada
Posts: 31
Just call her The Queen Mother II.... she's always wearing her jewels....
  #559  
Old 07-24-2007, 11:11 PM
wbenson's Avatar
Moderator Emeritus
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: -, United States
Posts: 2,546
I think "Princess Elizabeth" is just a very old way of referring to a Queen consort. In accession proclamations they refer to monarchs as "the Royal Prince(ss) Name X" when they aren't a prince(ss).
  #560  
Old 07-25-2007, 04:02 AM
muriel's Avatar
Imperial Majesty
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: London / Guildford, United Kingdom
Posts: 10,556
Quote:
Originally Posted by Elspeth View Post
The difference there is that she IS the Duchess of Cornwall, so there's nothing to be done in order for her to be known as such. However, as Queen Consort, she won't be Princess Consort, so she'd have to be known as something she isn't. For the "Princess Consort" stuff to make any more sense than being known as Bozo the Clown, she'd have to actually be it as well as be known as it, and that would require legislation.
I appreciate the point you are making about Camila not automatically holding the title of Princess Consort, and hence, Charles as monarch can create her as one. She will still legally be Queen Consort (as she is PoW now), but this would in effect be no more than recognition by Charles of the public will (and no different to Bozo the Clown!) I personally think Camilla should be Queen, but if there remains strong opposition to her holding the title, Charles will just have to bow to the public will.

We have already seen the softening of public opinion towards Camilla in the last 2 years, and I hope in time, Camilla will continue to endear herself to the larger public. She will never win everyboy over, but she will be doing well if she can get the opinion polls to around 50% of the public accepting her as Queen. To achieve that, I think she just has to continue to work hard, increase the number of public engagements she does each year (so that she does not come at the bottom of the unofficial league table published each year) and hope the Queen lives for another 10 years!
__________________

Closed Thread

Tags
camilla, camilla parker bowles, duchess of cornwall, princess consort, queen consort, styles and titles


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Victoria's Future Title? rop81 Crown Princess Victoria, Prince Daniel and Family 80 09-12-2021 08:00 PM
Will and should Camilla use the title of Queen when Charles becomes King? muriel The Prince of Wales and the Duchess of Cornwall 17 11-10-2011 10:20 AM
Crown Prince Hamzah relieved of his title: November 28, 2004 Amoula Current Events Archive 338 04-22-2005 09:28 AM




Popular Tags
american archie mountbatten-windsor asia asian birth britannia british british royal family camilla camilla's family camilla parker-bowles camilla parker bowles carolin china china chinese ming dynasty asia asian emperor royalty qing chinese clarence house commonwealth countries coronation crown jewels customs dresses duchess of sussex duke of sussex edward vii elizabeth ii family tree gemstones genetics george vi gradenigo harry and meghan hello! highgrove history hochberg house of windsor hypothetical monarchs japan japanese imperial family japan history jewellery kensington palace king edward vii king juan carlos książ castle liechtenstein lili mountbatten-windsor line of succession list of rulers meghan markle monarchists monarchy mongolia names pless politics portugal prince harry queen elizabeth ii queen victoria st edward sussex suthida thai royal family tradition unfinished portrait united states united states of america welsh


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 09:37 AM.

Social Knowledge Networks

eXTReMe Tracker
Powered by vBulletin
Copyright ©2000 - 2021
Jelsoft Enterprises
×