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  #321  
Old 01-02-2006, 05:21 PM
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Marina was born a princess of Greece & Denmark and was always styled "HRH Princess Marina, The Duchess of Kent" after her marriage by permission of George V, George VI and The Queen. The Sovereign can decide whether to recognize any foreign title of rank or style in her realm, which she did with Princess Marina.

Alice was never officially "Princess Alice" because she was Lady Alice Montagu-Scott as the daughter of a Duke and HRH The Duchess of Gloucester after her marriage to Prince Henry. However, the Queen gave permission for Alice to assume this title after Prince Richard married to distinguish her from the new Duchess and to acknowledge her service to the nation and Crown.
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  #322  
Old 01-02-2006, 05:33 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BeatrixFan
I think that in the event of Charles dying before the Queen, the Queen would have to create William Prince of Wales but whether she'd make him Duke of Cornwall or not would remain to be seen. He won't be the eldest son of a monarch as you rightly say Chrissy.

Nowadays women aren't using the Dowager title so that's why I think in that situation the Queen would use the Marina and Alice cases as a precedent to follow.
The Queen would have to issue letters patent changing the grant of the Dukedom of Cornwall to be the heir to the throne only, regardless of whether the heir is the eldest son of the Sovereign.

Since this would be rather dicey (is the heir allowed to be a female and hold the dukedom in her own right?), I doubt William would ever be Duke of Cornwall if Charles died before becoming King.

Camilla would still be HRH The Duchess of Cornwall in the event of Charles' death because there would no other holder of the title. She could retain this style and title until William became King and his eldest son was born and then assume another style or title granted by the Sovereign.
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  #323  
Old 01-02-2006, 05:35 PM
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Are you sure about Alice? She was listed in the Court Circular as Princess Alice.
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  #324  
Old 01-02-2006, 05:36 PM
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Have a look at the last sentence of branchg's post; that explains why she was known as Princess Alice after her son became Duke.
  #325  
Old 01-02-2006, 05:38 PM
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Yes I know. But in the first line branchg said, "Alice was never officially "Princess Alice" " but surely she must have been to have been listed as such in the Court Circular?
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  #326  
Old 01-02-2006, 05:40 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ysbel
It's funny; we wouldn't even be having this discussion if the Queen would set one standard for titles and precedence and stick to it!

Now we have the Princess of Wales who the Queen let be known as Duchess of Cornwall with one ranking in the official order of precedence and another in the private order of precedence.

Princess Louise is called Lady Louise totally unlike her cousins, Beatrice and Eugenie and the Earl of Wessex's claim to the dukedom of Edinburgh is shakier than at first glance.

To top it off, the Queen messed around Diana's order of precedence too after the divorce.

And to hear the press releases she's trying to simplify the monarchy! I'd hate to see the results if the Queen actually tried to complicate things.
The Queen really HAS messed things up! There should be no question on any of these matters because that's the way royal house rules work, but she has allowed all kinds of exceptions, winks and nods to the normal rules.

Yikes!
  #327  
Old 01-02-2006, 05:43 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Elspeth
Have a look at the last sentence of branchg's post; that explains why she was known as Princess Alice after her son became Duke.
Which, again, is the Queen's perogative as Fount of Honour, but she should have issued letters patent formally granting Alice the style and title of a princess of the UK in her own right.
  #328  
Old 01-02-2006, 07:11 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by branchg
The Queen would have to issue letters patent changing the grant of the Dukedom of Cornwall to be the heir to the throne only, regardless of whether the heir is the eldest son of the Sovereign.

Since this would be rather dicey (is the heir allowed to be a female and hold the dukedom in her own right?), I doubt William would ever be Duke of Cornwall if Charles died before becoming King.

Camilla would still be HRH The Duchess of Cornwall in the event of Charles' death because there would no other holder of the title. She could retain this style and title until William became King and his eldest son was born and then assume another style or title granted by the Sovereign.
She wouldn't need to assume another style or title granted by the Sovereign.

Just as the widow of any other title in the peerage continues to use that style and title after the death of their spouse so would Camilla.
  #329  
Old 01-02-2006, 07:30 PM
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The Queen have permission to Alice to officially stlye herslef HRH Princess Alice, Duchess of G. But she was not The Princess Alice. The Dukedom of Cornwall passes from father to son. If Charles dies the hereditary titles go down to william. He would automatically become Duke of Cornwall. It would be up to the Queen to decide when to make him Prince of Wales. So there would be a problem with Camilla if William were married. So she might become HRH Princess Camilla, Duchess of Cornwall or the Queen might give her a new title completely.
  #330  
Old 01-02-2006, 07:36 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Princejonnhy25
The Queen have permission to Alice to officially stlye herslef HRH Princess Alice, Duchess of G. But she was not The Princess Alice. The Dukedom of Cornwall passes from father to son. If Charles dies the hereditary titles go down to william. He would automatically become Duke of Cornwall. It would be up to the Queen to decide when to make him Prince of Wales. So there would be a problem with Camilla if William were married. So she might become HRH Princess Camilla, Duchess of Cornwall or the Queen might give her a new title completely.
The original grant of the Dukedom states it can only be held by the Sovereign's eldest son and heir to the throne, so it does not pass automatically by bloodline to the next male heir. It is automatic only to the eldest son of the Sovereign at any one time.

William would likely be created Prince of Wales and Earl of Chester by The Queen after a suitable mourning period as the new heir to the throne. He could not be Duke of Cornwall and his wife would become Princess of Wales.

Camilla would probably be granted the title and style of Princess Camilla as the widow of a Prince of Wales.
  #331  
Old 01-02-2006, 07:48 PM
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No I am pretty sure that the Duchy of Cornwall is a hereditary title. I am almost certain of it. It would go directly to William. I might be wrong but I am pretty sure.
  #332  
Old 01-02-2006, 07:59 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BeatrixFan
I've just found Camilla's full title;

Her Royal Highness The Princess of Wales and Countess of Chester, Duchess of Cornwall, Duchess of Rothesay, Countess of Carrick, Baroness of Renfrew, Lady of the Isles, Princess of Scotland
Hey Guys,
I'm still stuck on Camilla's title as a princess. I've noticed that she has just about every peerage ranking except for one. Are the ranks 'Marquess' and 'Marchioness' still used today or am I way off the mark? Or is it that it just doesn't apply to the Windsors? I just always thought that a marquess was heir to a dukedom. Somebody please school me!
  #333  
Old 01-02-2006, 08:38 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Princejonnhy25
No I am pretty sure that the Duchy of Cornwall is a hereditary title. I am almost certain of it. It would go directly to William. I might be wrong but I am pretty sure.

Where you are getting confused is that normally it appears to be inherited - e.g. 1841 the instant Queen Victoria had her son he was Duke of Cornwall, 1901 the instant she died Edward's son became Duke of Cornwall, the same thing happened in 1910 - George V's son instantly became Duke of Cornwall and in 1952 when George VI died Charles instantly became Duke of Cornwall BUT

each of these holders was the ELDEST SON of the monarch.


Go back to George II and George III and we have a different situation and it is the one we have as the precedent for the titles of William IF Charles dies while the Queen still lives.

George II's son was Duke of Cornwall et. al BUT he died before his father. George II created his grandson, later George III, Prince of Wales BUT George III never held the title Duke of Cornwall because he was never the eldest son of the monarch.


That is why the argument is that IF Charles dies before the Queen William will NOT be Duke of Cornwall.

However he will inherit the title the instant Charles becomes king and will be known as the Duke of Cornwall for a period of time before becoming Prince of Wales, assuming that Charles gives him that title.
  #334  
Old 01-02-2006, 09:08 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kerry
Hey Guys,
I'm still stuck on Camilla's title as a princess. I've noticed that she has just about every peerage ranking except for one. Are the ranks 'Marquess' and 'Marchioness' still used today or am I way off the mark? Or is it that it just doesn't apply to the Windsors? I just always thought that a marquess was heir to a dukedom. Somebody please school me!
Marquess is still a valid rank of the peerage, below a Duke. Many of the hereditary dukedoms of the UK also have marquessates or earldoms, which are normally used as courtesy styles by the eldest son.

The last royal Marquessates were Milford Haven and Cambridge, both created in 1917 by George V for his cousins, Prince Louis of Battenberg (Philip's maternal grandfather), and Prince Adolphus of Teck (Queen Mary's nephew). George V ordered them to stop using their German princely and ducal styles in the UK, as a result of anti-German sentiment during WWI, and created them British peers to compensate. Both marquessates are now extinct.

Charles' title at birth was HRH Prince Charles of Edinburgh per letters patent of George VI (under the 1917 letters patent of George V, only the children of sons of the sovereign were entitled to the rank of Royal Highness and prince/princess of the UK).

When Elizabeth became Queen in 1952, Charles automatically became Duke of Cornwall (in England), Duke of Rothesay, Earl of Carrick & Baron of Renfrew, Lord of the Isles and Prince & Great Steward (all of Scotland) as the heir to the throne. In 1958, The Queen created him Prince of Wales and Earl of Chester as is customary for the heir to the throne.

Camilla became a Royal Highness and Princess of the UK with marriage. Because her husband holds many peerages, she shares all of his titles, but was granted her request to be styled "Duchess of Cornwall" in Great Britain, and "Duchess of Rothesay" in Scotland by The Queen.
  #335  
Old 01-02-2006, 09:38 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by branchg
Marquess is still a valid rank of the peerage, below a Duke. Many of the hereditary dukedoms of the UK also have marquessates or earldoms, which are normally used as courtesy styles by the eldest son...
Thanks branchg. So Prince William is the Marquess of something since Prince Charles is the Duke of Cornwall?
  #336  
Old 01-02-2006, 09:39 PM
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No; the dukedom of Cornwall doesn't have a hereditary marqessate that goes with it.
  #337  
Old 01-02-2006, 09:45 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Elspeth
No; the dukedom of Cornwall doesn't have a hereditary marqessate that goes with it.
Oh...are there any dukedoms with hereditary marquessates? Or am I beating a dead horse?
  #338  
Old 01-02-2006, 10:08 PM
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Originally Posted by kerry
Oh...are there any dukedoms with hereditary marquessates? Or am I beating a dead horse?
Yes there are, but none of the royal dukedoms do. They all have an earldom and barony as secondary titles.
  #339  
Old 01-02-2006, 10:15 PM
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Originally Posted by kerry
Thanks branchg. So Prince William is the Marquess of something since Prince Charles is the Duke of Cornwall?
Most of the marquesates are held by non-royal Dukes who were granted hereditary titles through the centuries by various Sovereigns, working their way up the peerage for service to the Crown. So for instance, they may have become a Sir Tom Smith, then another ancestor became an Earl of X, another became a Marquess of X and then another became a Duke of X. So slowly they have all of these other hereditary titles inherited after the death of the last male holder, along with their primary rank of Duke of Whatever.

Hope this helps!
  #340  
Old 01-02-2006, 10:32 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by branchg
Marquess is still a valid rank of the peerage, below a Duke. Many of the hereditary dukedoms of the UK also have marquessates or earldoms, which are normally used as courtesy styles by the eldest son.

The last royal Marquessates were Milford Haven and Cambridge, both created in 1917 by George V for his cousins, Prince Louis of Battenberg (Philip's maternal grandfather), and Prince Adolphus of Teck (Queen Mary's nephew). George V ordered them to stop using their German princely and ducal styles in the UK, as a result of anti-German sentiment during WWI, and created them British peers to compensate. Both marquessates are now extinct.

The Marquessate of Milford Haven isn't extinct according to this geneological table or the Roll of the Peerage.

http://translate.google.com/translat...l%3Den%26lr%3D


http://www.cracroftspeerage.co.uk/ro...marquesses.htm


For it to be extint there has to be no male heir to the 4th Marquis and according to this he is still alive and has a son and a brother both still living.
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