The Royal Forums Coat of Arms


Join The Royal Forums Today
Closed Thread
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
 
  #261  
Old 10-27-2005, 05:45 PM
Imperial Majesty
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: ***, United States
Posts: 16,873
Quote:
Originally Posted by wymanda
I have been having a think about this and a press release along these lines might make things clear if Charles & Camilla marry.

"In accordance with Letters Patent signed on ??/??/???? HM the Queen in accordance with the wishes of the Prince of Wales & Ms Parker-Bowles agrees to the bride being known, after the solemnization of the marriage, as HRH The Duchess of Cornwall. The bride will remain entitled to share in all the styles & titles of His Royal Highness but, in recognition of the life & work of Diana, Princess of Wales will not use or be known by the title of Princess of Wales."

What do other members think.
I think you could profitably go into business as a clairvoyant!

(except that it was done without Letters Patent, of course)
__________________

  #262  
Old 10-27-2005, 06:19 PM
Heir Presumptive
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: , United States
Posts: 2,735
Quote:
Originally Posted by Elspeth
I think you could profitably go into business as a clairvoyant!

(except that it was done without Letters Patent, of course)
And that is a mighty big exception! To issue the letters patent described would be to deny Camilla her rightful title and rank as Princess of Wales in law, making the marriage morganatic and requiring an Act of Parliament confirming she could not succeed as Queen Consort.
__________________

  #263  
Old 10-27-2005, 06:23 PM
Heir Presumptive
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: , United States
Posts: 2,735
Quote:
Originally Posted by BeatrixFan
Thats a tricky one. Constantine never abdicated and he is still a King.
In law, Constantine is not King because the Hellenic Republic was created by popular referendum in which the people rejected the monarchy as a form of government in favor of a parliamentary democracy.

By tradition and protocol among the royal houses, Constantine is granted the courtesy of his rank and title, but not precedence, as he no longer reigns. For all practical purposes, he is no longer King of the Hellenes except as a style.
  #264  
Old 12-02-2005, 11:38 AM
Josefine's Avatar
Majesty
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: , Sweden
Posts: 9,505
when charles becomes king can he decide what camilla will be called
  #265  
Old 12-02-2005, 12:49 PM
Royal Highness
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Chicago, United States
Posts: 1,629
Quote:
Originally Posted by BeatrixFan
Thats a tricky one. Constantine never abdicated and he is still a King.
I agree Sam! He is still technically King...Sorry, I know, off topic...

From Wikipedia:
Constantine was not formally exiled nor stripped of his property or citizenship after the referendum, but he was strongly discouraged from returning to Greece, and did not return until February 1981, and then only for the funeral of his mother, Queen Frederika. There were also legal disputes with the Greek state, since Constantine was unable or unwilling to pay the heavy taxes on his property in Greece. In the early 1990s Constantine started appearing more in the Greek media. In 1992 he concluded an agreement with the conservative government of Constantine Mitsotakis, ceding most of his land in Greece to a non-profit foundation in exchange for the former palace of Tatoi Palace in Athens and the right to export a large number of movables from Greece.
  #266  
Old 12-02-2005, 12:50 PM
Royal Highness
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Chicago, United States
Posts: 1,629
She will be Queen. I think that has been very clearly established by current law...

She has the use of all the female version titles to Charles's male versions...including Princess of Wales.
  #267  
Old 12-02-2005, 12:50 PM
BeatrixFan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: London, United Kingdom
Posts: 6,861
LOL. That came back! It would be wrong for Pavlos to use the King title and I sincerely hope he doesn't.
__________________
Kaye aka BeatrixFan
  #268  
Old 12-02-2005, 12:52 PM
Royal Highness
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Chicago, United States
Posts: 1,629
Quote:
Originally Posted by BeatrixFan
LOL. That came back! It would be wrong for Pavlos to use the King title and I sincerely hope he doesn't.
Absolutely...I agree 100%... :)

I just wanted to show my support on your post Sam, that is why I printed that information... :)
  #269  
Old 12-02-2005, 12:54 PM
BeatrixFan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: London, United Kingdom
Posts: 6,861
Duly Noted Darling.
__________________
Kaye aka BeatrixFan
  #270  
Old 12-02-2005, 02:32 PM
Skydragon's Avatar
Imperial Majesty
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: London and Highlands, United Kingdom
Posts: 10,912
Quote:
Originally Posted by Josefine
when charles becomes king can he decide what camilla will be called
I think it will be a joint decision with Camilla.:)
  #271  
Old 12-02-2005, 03:08 PM
Princejohnny25's Avatar
Heir Presumptive
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Arctica, Antarctica
Posts: 2,052
The safest way is for her to become HM Queen Consort. HRH Princess Consort makes it confusing and degrading. Best to stick with tradition. When the engagment was first announced people were mad that she was going to be HRH but now they have accepted her and see what a great royal she is. I think the same will happen when she is Queen.
  #272  
Old 12-02-2005, 07:26 PM
Heir Presumptive
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: , United States
Posts: 2,735
Quote:
Originally Posted by Josefine
when charles becomes king can he decide what camilla will be called
No he cannot, because Parliament is the sole arbitrator of the law, not the Crown. To allow Camilla to be HRH The Princess Consort requires legislation to be passed in the UK (and the Crown Commonwealth nations), in which it is stated she will not hold the style, title and rights of Queen Consort.

Once passed, Charles could then issue letters patent granting Camilla the title and style of HRH The Princess Consort of the UK with precedence before all other princes and princesses of the realm, similar to what was done in 1957 for Prince Philip.

This is the only way Camilla could assume the title of Princess Consort.
  #273  
Old 12-02-2005, 08:37 PM
Imperial Majesty
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: ***, United States
Posts: 16,873
Well, Buckingham Palace can announce that HM Queen Camilla has elected to be known as HRH the Princess Consort, and I don't see what anyone could do about it. As far as I understand the law, the only prohibition on calling yourself something other than your legal name is when there's some sort of nefarious intent.
  #274  
Old 12-02-2005, 09:41 PM
Heir Presumptive
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: , United States
Posts: 2,735
Quote:
Originally Posted by Elspeth
Well, Buckingham Palace can announce that HM Queen Camilla has elected to be known as HRH the Princess Consort, and I don't see what anyone could do about it. As far as I understand the law, the only prohibition on calling yourself something other than your legal name is when there's some sort of nefarious intent.
No. Camilla cannot (nor Charles III for that matter) make a decision contrary to common law without the Sovereign being so advised by the Prime Minister. Assuming this was the case, the announcement would be that letters patent were issued to create Camilla "HRH The Princess Consort" and confirming her precedence as the first lady in the land beside HM.

Given the fact there is no legal justification, the Prime Minister would have to consult with constitutional experts and advise the Cabinet and Parliamentary Council of the conclusion before advising the Sovereign. They may have already done this in preparation for the future, but it has not been clarified.

It was stated before the marriage ceremony that legislation would have to be considered when the time came, which leads me to believe there is no consensus for a new precedent. Given the difficulty of getting it through each parliament of the crown commonwealth nations as well, I think it highly unlikely this will come to pass.
  #275  
Old 12-02-2005, 09:57 PM
Imperial Majesty
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: ***, United States
Posts: 16,873
Quote:
No. Camilla cannot (nor Charles III for that matter) make a decision contrary to common law without the Sovereign being so advised by the Prime Minister.
What part of it is contrary to common law? When Charles becomes King, she's legally Queen; she's choosing not to call herself HM Queen Camilla for reasons of diplomacy or whatever, not with intent to defraud or commit crimes. If they decide that she should be informally referred to as HRH the Princess Consort, who's going to stop them, and how are they going to do it?
  #276  
Old 12-02-2005, 10:01 PM
Princejohnny25's Avatar
Heir Presumptive
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Arctica, Antarctica
Posts: 2,052
I thought that the soverign as the Fount of Honours, could just make up a title for anyone with out the consent of parliment. Did the queen need parliament to grant Andrew the title of Duke of York? I think that Chalres would just give her the title HRH The Princess Consort and make a letter saying she is to be refered to by her lesser title the same way the queen did when she said that Camilla will use her Duchess style. I dont think she will be Princess Consort. I think the times will change in the future. People are much more accepting and the grandness of the coronation and ceremonies will put a spell on people and want her to be Queen. That brief lapse of rationality between a soverigns death and coronation is a good time to introduce her as Queen if people are still hostile.
  #277  
Old 12-02-2005, 10:32 PM
Heir Presumptive
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: , United States
Posts: 2,735
Quote:
Originally Posted by Elspeth
What part of it is contrary to common law? When Charles becomes King, she's legally Queen; she's choosing not to call herself HM Queen Camilla for reasons of diplomacy or whatever, not with intent to defraud or commit crimes. If they decide that she should be informally referred to as HRH the Princess Consort, who's going to stop them, and how are they going to do it?
Well, you're right, assuming the Prime Minister agrees it is a non-issue for the wife of the King to be styled below the rank of Queen. All I'm saying is legally there is no precedent for it and raises questions which require parliamentary clarification and constitutional review before a statement is made. The Sovereign reigns, but does not rule.

If everyone agrees that she can be legally HM The Queen, but styled as HRH The Princess Consort without legislation, then problem solved.
  #278  
Old 12-02-2005, 10:34 PM
Imperial Majesty
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: ***, United States
Posts: 16,873
I agree with you, however, that it's very unlikely to come to that. If the Queen lives for more than a couple of years or so, which appears to be very likely, the objection to Camilla becoming Queen will be really just out on the fringes. I assume the statement about her being Princess Consort was made in response to feeling at the time the statement was made, not in response to the likely climate at the time when it became fact.
  #279  
Old 12-02-2005, 10:43 PM
Heir Presumptive
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: , United States
Posts: 2,735
Quote:
Originally Posted by Princejonnhy25
I thought that the soverign as the Fount of Honours, could just make up a title for anyone with out the consent of parliment. Did the queen need parliament to grant Andrew the title of Duke of York? I think that Chalres would just give her the title HRH The Princess Consort and make a letter saying she is to be refered to by her lesser title the same way the queen did when she said that Camilla will use her Duchess style.
It's different because Camilla still became a princess with the rank of Royal Highness upon marriage to Charles. As the fount of honour, the Queen agreed she would be styled by ONE of her titles, Duchess of Cornwall, rather than another, Princess of Wales. She shares her husband's titles reflecting his peerages, one of which is being used without affecting her legal position as the wife of the Prince of Wales.

Once Charles becomes HM The King, she is automatically HM Queen Camilla and nothing else. There is no other style or title to assume other than Queen without raising the legal question of her rank as the wife of the King. Since the Sovereign represents the Crown, he must take advice from his ministers first, then issue letters patent to grant her the lesser style and title.

Effectively, she would have to reliniquish her rank legally as Queen in order to be Princess Consort, which is not the case now. She is legally a princess of the UK with the rank of HRH through marriage regardless of her style as a Duchess.
  #280  
Old 12-02-2005, 10:46 PM
Princejohnny25's Avatar
Heir Presumptive
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Arctica, Antarctica
Posts: 2,052
Its funny how this nonsense becomes so serious. I think in a couple of years there will be very little objection to her becoming Queen Consort. I think by the end of 2006 the mention of Camilla becoming Princess Consort on the official British Monarchy website will mysteriously disappear. I dont think they will release a statment but it will act as a hint.
__________________

Closed Thread

Tags
camilla, camilla parker bowles, duchess of cornwall, princess consort, queen consort, styles and titles


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Victoria's Future Title? rop81 Crown Princess Victoria, Prince Daniel and Family 80 09-12-2021 08:00 PM
Will and should Camilla use the title of Queen when Charles becomes King? muriel The Prince of Wales and the Duchess of Cornwall 17 11-10-2011 10:20 AM
Crown Prince Hamzah relieved of his title: November 28, 2004 Amoula Current Events Archive 338 04-22-2005 09:28 AM




Popular Tags
american archie mountbatten-windsor asia asian british british royal family camilla camilla's family camilla parker-bowles camilla parker bowles carolin china china chinese ming dynasty asia asian emperor royalty qing chinese clarence house commonwealth countries coronation crown jewels customs daisy doge of venice dresses duchess of sussex duke of sussex edward vii family tree genetics george vi gradenigo harry and meghan hello! highgrove history hochberg house of windsor hypothetical monarchs japan japanese imperial family japan history jewellery kensington palace king edward vii king juan carlos książ castle liechtenstein lili mountbatten-windsor line of succession list of rulers meghan markle monarchists monarchy mongolia pless politics portugal prince harry queen elizabeth ii queen victoria royal ancestry solomon j solomon spanish royal family st edward sussex suthida thai royal family tradition unfinished portrait united states united states of america welsh


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 10:10 AM.

Social Knowledge Networks

eXTReMe Tracker
Powered by vBulletin
Copyright ©2000 - 2021
Jelsoft Enterprises
×