Should Camilla attend the memorial service for Diana?

[Empress]

Yes, but there's a bit of a problem with the Mail. Sometimes when they've published one of their anti-Camilla rants, several of us (not just Camilla supporters) have written into the Comments section to point out factual errors or to put another point of view, and I don't think any of our comments have ever been published. The Comments sections instead are full of "Camilla is an evil person, poor Diana!" "Diana was perfect and Camilla is evil!" "Charles must step down and let William be King!" etc etc etc. Given how biassed the Mail's reporting is, and given how selective they are with the comments they choose to publish, I don't believe any poll of theirs on this topic can be trusted. It's fairly well known that, depending on how the questions are worded and the sample is selected, polls can be manipulated, and nothing about the Mail's treatment of this issue suggests that they have any interest in being fair.

Aha, I was not aware that it was an irreputable source that had organized the poll. My apologies.

I beg to differ. When you're living in a monarchy, the royal family is one of the symbols that represents your country. You want them to stick together and stand up for each other at any cost. They're one of the stabile factors who will be around on a long term. If there's a public event, they should be there as a whole. Not just the ones the press wants to see. For example: when Beatrix had Mabelgate going on, she stood behing her son and her future daughter-in-law and that showed strength. People might not have liked it back then, but at least it is clear. One knows what one can expect. With royals backing out of events or making excuses to the press, one doesn't. You don't want your royal family to look like a bunch of whuzzies, crawling into a corner every time the press invents another stir. I mean, remember Philippe of Belgium telling the press to be nice to him? I was ashamed to my very core and I'm not even Belgian. I have the same feeling now, mixed with some realy pity towards Camilla, because she really can't do anything good, it seems.

In the end I think it boils down to this: they should never have had this memorial service and even if they did, they should have been there, all of them. At least that's a clear statement. To the public and to the press: we're here to stay, this is who we are, deal with it.

I agree, a clear statement one way or the other would have been better then this disaster. In an ideal world, the princes would have honored their mother in private, and as I stated before, not put Camilla through this. However this is the reality, and they need to deal with it. They have made it clear that they love and respect their step mother, and they do not consider her a second class anyone. The only people who consider this a slap in the face of Camilla are those that can not see it for what it is. A woman trying to do the best she can in an INCREDIBLY difficult situation, where she has no choice but to listen to public opinion, as misguided as it may be.

The only leaked conversation I know of is the Camillagate one. I think some of the others - reports that Camilla referred to Diana as a pathetic creature or whatever - are second-hand reports, and I don't know how reliable they might be.

Aha. I stand corrected. None the less, I have a feeling, just my own, that she would not have considered Diana a friend. Especially since Diana was never particularly kind to her. But I am only going on how I would feel in a particular situation.

 

[CasiraghiTrio]

Aha. I stand corrected. None the less, I have a feeling, just my own, that she would not have considered Diana a friend. Especially since Diana was never particularly kind to her. But I am only going on how I would feel in a particular situation.

No, they would never have been friends (at least not since the first Wales marriage "irretrievably broke down") but at the same time, I think at this stage in the game, if diana was alive and 46 years old, they would be very different women and they would be courteous as any situation might require.
I think they were/are both good women, and now Camilla is a very mature woman, and I believe Diana would be a mature woman at this stage too. So while they would never be friends, I believe they would be mature adults about each other.

 

[Elspeth]

She hasn't behaved with tact and grace, the civil service have made her bow to the working classes and as soon as the Royal Family does that then they've lost their bearings.

Enough with the "working classes," please. That's painting with far too broad a brush. Quite apart from which, there were times during the 20th century (and I'm old enough to remember some of them even if you aren't) where the working classes were supportive of the royals when various intellectual and pseudo-intellectual branches of the middle class had written the royal family off as irrelevant. The royal family has been successful because it was responsive to public opinion over time in the 20th century, but it was a measured response to genuine shifts in public opinion, not this sort of panicked reaction to short-term rabble-rousing by the tabloid press. That's a very dangerous development.

This makes her every bit a second class member of the Royal Family and even when she sits next to Charles when he's crowned, there'll still be this loony fringe expecting her to make some concession to the memory of Diana.

The concessions being demanded by the loony fringe are that she not be crowned, of course. And that he not be crowned either, but that they live in exile like the Duke and Duchess of Windsor while William is crowned in Charles's place. The fact that this is something that William might not want seems not to enter into the equation.

This is exactly why I'm so annoyed for goodness sake, doesn't anyone else see what this signifies? It signifies that Camilla will never be able to do anything without firstly genuflecting to Diana's memory and she can't operate as a consort if she has to do that. She, and the rest of the Royal Family barring those idiotic boys who are to blame for all this, have once again had to bow to the demands of commoners and in my mind, that makes them totally unworthy to continue in their positions.

If you see this as just royals bowing to commoners, I think you're missing the true danger of the situation by a long way. Britain IS a democracy, you know, and the monarch is part of the government. I hope the government continues to be responsive to the people or we're all in trouble. However, this isn't the people in general, it's mischief-making by extremists with an agenda. The ironic thing is that the Diana fanatics who are being pandered to by the press are all for the monarchy to remain so that Diana's son can be king, whereas a large part of the press that's enabling this nonsense is angling for a republic.

This was a no-win situation from the start. If they'd decided to hold a quiet memorial rather than a public spectacle, the Diana fanatics and the Mail would be wailing loud and long about trashing Diana's memory, trying to airbrush her from history, ignoring the wishes of her poor boys just so that Camilla can be paraded as the future queen and so on. If they'd had this memorial and arranged things so that Charles and Camilla were out of the country or something, it'd be seized on by the Diana fanatics as proof positive that Camilla was a coward who felt guilty about being responsible for everything bad that ever happened to Diana; if they'd invited her and she'd refused at the start, the same accusations would be flying around; if she'd turned up at the service it'd be proof that she was a shameless and heartless person who was trashing Diana's memory; and with the present situation we're dealing with accusations that she has poor judgement. And in every single one of those cases, she'd have been blamed for grabbing the limelight and diverting attention from Diana whereas in reality it's the press itself which has thrust the attention on her.

So the tabloids make a huge profit from keeping this issue on the front burner regardless of how it had played out, and they absolve themselves from the responsibility for doing it by blaming Camilla for grabbing headlines, and large numbers of people seem to be ready to swallow their version of reality, just like after Diana died when the press turned the blame from themselves and placed it on the royal family.

I don't suppose anything was ever going to repair the damaged relationship between Charles and the press, but this issue might have gone a long way to ensure that William's relationship with the press is just as bad as his father's.

 

[BeatrixFan]

Enough with the "working classes," please. That's painting with far too broad a brush.

Well the loons of the Diana Circle (who have been accomodated and bowed down to) are surely working class? No professional person would act in the way they're acting. And yes, alot of the working classes were once supportive of the Royal Family but now they go on what the press thinks and as the press loves to follow the same tack as the Diana Circle, the working class are instilled with a view to hate Camilla. Yes it's being broad but for the majority, I should say it was true. But you miss my point, the Royal Family shouldn't have to shift. They aren't there to shift, they are there to stay resolute and stick to their guns.

If you see this as just royals bowing to commoners, I think you're missing the true danger of the situation by a long way. Britain IS a democracy, you know, and the monarch is part of the government. I hope the government continues to be responsive to the people or we're all in trouble.

The monarch is just a spokesperson these days. She just stamps and seals, the Government aren't the ones taking the flak over this memorial service are they? No, it's the Royal Family - again. This is happening - again and Diana is at the heart of it - again. Democracy or no democracy, the monarchy is supposed to set a tone, not just do as commoners tell them. The Queen isn't dictated to by building-site opinion, nor should Camilla be.

 

[love_cc]

The only leaked conversation I know of is the Camillagate one. I think some of the others - reports that Camilla referred to Diana as a pathetic creature or whatever - are second-hand reports, and I don't know how reliable they might be.

We can "Squidy Tape" for Diana and James Gilbey during the time of Christmas 1989 in Sandringham. I think the "ridiculous creative"stuff came from Andrew Morton's "Diana: in her own words", because he said Diana kept the notes from Charles' suitcase and copied them to pass to the lawyers for the proof of adultery. Before I have more reliable evidence about this, I refuse to fully believe what he writes.

 

[Maxie]

I agree, a clear statement one way or the other would have been better then this disaster. In an ideal world, the princes would have honored their mother in private, and as I stated before, not put Camilla through this. However this is the reality, and they need to deal with it. They have made it clear that they love and respect their step mother, and they do not consider her a second class anyone. The only people who consider this a slap in the face of Camilla are those that can not see it for what it is. A woman trying to do the best she can in an INCREDIBLY difficult situation, where she has no choice but to listen to public opinion, as misguided as it may be.

I understand why you see it like this, but I just can't understand why William and Harry's wish has to be overruled by public opinion. A memorial service, organised by the princes, now has become organised by public opinion in a certain way. I think that's bad, it's not 'Idols' you know. 'Who are we going to vote away today? Oh look, it's Camilla. Bye Camilla! Good luck to you!'

I'll stick to my conclusion: this memorial service is totally unnessecary, it only hurt people. I wish they would have thought about the consequences beforehand.

 

[BeatrixFan]

Those boys don't think Maxie, they've bought into the hype that as the spawn of a goddess they can do whatever the hell they like and everyone else can go hang.

 

[Elspeth]

Well the loons of the Diana Circle (who have been accomodated and bowed down to) are surely working class? No professional person would act in the way they're acting.

I wouldn't be too sure of that.

And yes, alot of the working classes were once supportive of the Royal Family but now they go on what the press thinks and as the press loves to follow the same tack as the Diana Circle, the working class are instilled with a view to hate Camilla. Yes it's being broad but for the majority, I should say it was true.

I think these days it's probably more across the whole class spectrum.

But you miss my point, the Royal Family shouldn't have to shift. They aren't there to shift, they are there to stay resolute and stick to their guns.

They've shifted in the past and it's been good for them. It was in response to public opinion that the name of the royal house itself was changed, for one thing. One of the reasons the British monarchy survived when some others didn't is that the British monarchy managed to update and adapt itself to the point where it was still relevant.

The monarch is just a spokesperson these days. She just stamps and seals, the Government aren't the ones taking the flak over this memorial service are they? No, it's the Royal Family - again. This is happening - again and Diana is at the heart of it - again. Democracy or no democracy, the monarchy is supposed to set a tone, not just do as commoners tell them. The Queen isn't dictated to by building-site opinion, nor should Camilla be.

It isn't just building-site opinion, it's opinion across the social board; you can see that from this forum if nothing else.

 

[Maxie]

Those boys don't think Maxie, they've bought into the hype that as the spawn of a goddess they can do whatever the hell they like and everyone else can go hang.

Well, they're not the first royals in the course of history that didn't see something coming. It has to bite them in the face, otherwise they won't notice. Maybe they should log into some forums from time to time to check what we wise people say on several matters...

 

[Henri M.]

Not only in Europe or US, but also in South America etiquette demand the former mistress doesn't go to the Memorial Service.

Etiquette 'demands' nothing. Etiquette is totally voluntarily and does only give guidelines and advice on 'how to handle in social situations'. It is totally up to you or me to follow an etiquette and -if yes- to which extent.

I have never ever seen any etiquette in which a second legally wedded wife should be barred.

 

[CasiraghiTrio]

The concessions being demanded by the loony fringe are that she not be crowned, of course. And that he not be crowned either, but that they live in exile like the Duke and Duchess of Windsor while William is crowned in Charles's place. The fact that this is something that William might not want seems not to enter into the equation.

Ok, so let's have Lady Louise instead!

 

[Empress]

Sigh, apparently my posts are not being read.

1. I completely agree that this memorial was totally unneccessary. The concert should have been enough to honor Diana for the public.

2. I think that a private memorial for friends and family would have sufficed.

3. I think that Camilla, despite anything done in the past, has comported herself in an admirable way, and even though I do not like what has happened in the past, I think that she deserves a second chance. I am a big fan of second chances. She has deifinitely gained at least some support from me as she has continued to act like a lady, and to act with grace and tact since becoming married to Charles. Who are we to say she hasn't tried her best in exceedingly difficult circumstances. Would you want to be in her shoes.

 

[BeatrixFan]

If I wish I was in her shoes. I'd soon stick the toe of my Jimmy Choo up the ass of the Dirty Mail, the Diana Circle and it's ilk and make it clear that I wasn't going to be treated like some kind of inferior. Can you imagine if this was Princess Michael? Would she take this? No she wouldn't and nor should Camilla. Then again, it's all the more cutting when this has been put upon her by her stepsons so what can she do?

 

[CasiraghiTrio]

If I wish I was in her shoes. I'd soon stick the toe of my Jimmy Choo up the ass of the Dirty Mail, the Diana Circle and it's ilk and make it clear that I wasn't going to be treated like some kind of inferior. Can you imagine if this was Princess Michael? Would she take this? No she wouldn't and nor should Camilla. Then again, it's all the more cutting when this has been put upon her by her stepsons so what can she do?

Oh boy, when Princess Michael of Kent is a standard bearer for the appropriate behavior of Camilla, geez......... I guess the British Monarchy is in much more trouble than I thought!

 

[Empress]

And therein lies the crux of the matter. Her stepsons invited her, so what could she do? She could have said no, and I think that she should have, but then she risks hurting their feelings.

In the end, I think that her stepsons should have held more importance than public opinion, but as Elspeth says the monarchy is a bit reliant on public opinion.

 

[wbenson]

And the Diana loons win (again)...

 

[Roslyn]

I had just completed and was about to review a lenghty, well reasoned, carefully drafted post, when I was distracted by a spammy PM which I have now deleted, and of course I lost my post.

In summary:

1. I always thought the memorial service was a bit odd after so long but didn't think it could do any harm.

2. Camilla has probably never wanted to go but felt it was her duty as the boys asked her and her husband seems to have wanted her by his side.

3. Camilla has behaved with dignity in very difficult circumstances.

4. The RF has, once gain, bowed to public demands to be its mother/father/nanny.

5. The RF and the institution has become an entertainment and is being treated by some like a reality TV show. The viewers are phoning in to vote off their least favourite contestant.

6. The institution of the monarchy will be weakened by this situation which should have been foreseen by the armies of experts the RF employs for that purpose.

7. I wish it was September 1st.

 

[Madame Royale]

So she decided not to attend...what an absolute circus this has been.

If the Duchess believes it's not in anyones interests that she attends for whatever reason(s) then I say her gut instincts and rationale are most probably right.

She isn't going so really that's the end of this immediate discussion one would assume (not saying to close the thread just noting the facts )

 

[Elspeth]

Roslyn, I agree with your post except for point 7. I don't think September 1st is going to bring any relief because (a) the bullies have tasted blood and they know their tactics can be successful, which means they'll be hounding Camilla (and probably Charles) from here to kingdom come, and (b) the tabloids involved in this hounding need some way of selling their wares, and whipping up hate is always a good way to do it. The profit-making ability of yet more biographies and photos and revelations about Diana has probably peaked, but here's a fresh new angle, and the Camilla haters have been empowered so the Saint Diana, evil Camilla stuff will be very appealing to them. And it probably won't occur to them that they're being manipulated in order to enrich the tabloid press. I just hope this frenzy doesn't end in someone's death like the last one did, or it'll really go to show that people don't learn from their mistakes.

 

[Empress]

I have a question:

Those of you who say that Camilla is bowing to public opinion in not going, would you be happy if she again bowed to the opinion expressed by members of the public and changed her mind yet again and went?

Is it not the same thing in that case?

 

[love_cc]

the daily mail has already started the campaigns.Several articles have been put up.They don't even dare put the name of the byline author names.So sentimental......So emtional.....
Living in the shadow of the 'people's princess'
Living in the shadow of the 'people's princess' | the Daily Mail

How can our future King be so badly out of touch?
How can our future King be so badly out of touch? | the Daily Mail

Diana memorial: Courtiers get it wrong again
Diana memorial: Courtiers get it wrong again | the Daily Mail

Haunting sense of guilt that Charles needs to confront
Haunting sense of guilt that Charles needs to confront | the Daily Mail

 

[BeatrixFan]

Well, for me, I'd rather the thing wasn't happening in the first place and she wasn't put in this position. But if she had to be, I'd rather the RF got it's act together and made it's intentions very clear from the start and for me, that's 2005. They should have said, Camilla won't be a real member of the Royal Family, she'll be a seat filler and a hand waver but anything bigger and it wont be happening and for that reason, we're giving her a second rate title and we're not going to let her be Queen either. Every action that has come from the RF has been negative on this one, every time Camilla stands a chance of becoming a leading member of the firm, the RF puts something in her way. But no, I don't want her to change her mind and go - I want the Princes to change their mind, realise what they've done and cancel this whole charade.

 

[Al_bina]

Such a thought, Elspeth ...

“I just hope this frenzy doesn't end in someone's death like the last one did, or it'll really go to show that people don't learn from their mistakes” (Elspeth, 2007).

That would be an interesting development to see. It may bring the saga to finality. I hope there will be no wars between loyalists afterwards.

 

[Empress]

When you put it that way I can understand your position.

And again, I think that she has been put in a terrible position. I certainly don't envy her.

Well, if they cancelled it at this point, they would be bowing to public opinion. This is all just a mess and a no win situation all around.

 

[Elspeth]

Sam, are you saying you think the royal family's advisers dumped her in this deliberately to undercut her? Someone in the Palace is colluding with the Mail?

 

[Elspeth]

“I just hope this frenzy doesn't end in someone's death like the last one did, or it'll really go to show that people don't learn from their mistakes” (Elspeth, 2007).

That would be an interesting development to see. It may bring the saga to finality. I hope there will be no wars between loyalists afterwards.

I do hope you aren't being serious.

 

[love_cc]

I have a question:

Those of you who say that Camilla is bowing to public opinion in not going, would you be happy if she again bowed to the opinion expressed by members of the public and changed her mind yet again and went?

Is it not the same thing in that case?

No,she won't change it again. It is the final say. What I felt uncomfortable is that so many so-called adults and friends and those care about Diana refused to see Prince William and Prince Harry's points of views about peace and reconsiliation and criticised almost every details in the service directing the idea that Prince Charles is behind the scence to ensure that the service becoming a PR move for Camilla and him. It is so unfogiving and unkind in my judgement and if this is what they wanted, I would rather wish Britain to become a republic and release the royals from the guild cage.

 

[CasiraghiTrio]

I think the general concensus here seems to be that Camilla should stick to her guns. Whatever that is, going or not going (now it is not going, she says) it should be the final word. This business of being adamant about going shows the crucial flaw in the whole PR battle of wills that the memorial service for Diana has become. It shows that the whole thing is just for public consumption. The "public" supposedly doesn't want Camilla there, so "they" have their wish. That's BS. It's not about the "public", the media companies, or even the genuine public. It's about Diana. It's about family. The whole family.

 

[Al_bina]

Dear Elspeth,
I had no wish you to offend you, but I have cited your words. I have been subjected to harsh criticism upon presuming that some form of divine intervention might prevent Prince Charles from becoming a King.
I have just expressed my views on your words. You live in the UK and know more than those, who get news from cheap tabloids and mass media.

 

[BeatrixFan]

Sam, are you saying you think the royal family's advisers dumped her in this deliberately to undercut her? Someone in the Palace is colluding with the Mail?

I'm saying that it's becoming ever clearer that someone, several people if I'm right have a serious problem with Camilla and have set conditions about just how much of a member of the Royal Family she can be. They'll take orders from the Queen, they might bring themselves to take them from Charles, but from Camilla? It sickens them to think that someone like Camilla might topple them from their precious grey suit positions with her down to earth style. They want to limit her influence as much as they can and once again, the Eunuchs bring down the Emperor.